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  #5581  
Old 29.03.2020, 11:41
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Re: Coronavirus

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Another fact-free theory.
Maybe you would like to try to convince us by calculating the average number of seasonal flu deaths worldwide in 3 days and see how that compares with 10,000.
Given that we don't have reliable tests at the moment a lot of the positives after a second or third test they test negative.

Italian microbiologist calls on the Italian government to stop publishing new infected patients because of this reason

https://www.secoloditalia.it/2020/03...-dati-falsati/

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"No need to communicate the number of positive people from the new coronavirus. Scientifically it is a "dirty " figure, which as such risks distorting not only the calculations on the size and lethality of the Covid-19 pandemic, but also giving citizens the wrong impression.
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  #5582  
Old 29.03.2020, 11:42
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Re: information contradictions over COV19?

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I'd like to ask someone with medical know-how to please clarify the following two points which seem like a contradiction in the information given to the public:

1. Only go to the Hospital in "grave" condition i.e. high fever, shortness of breath, call first and don't simply show up. This makes a lot of sense, however I've also seen some doctors recommending to treat the disease early before it's too late because when it's too late there is little they can do ... aren't these two contradictory?

2. When someone gets the virus and experience only mild symptoms develops antibodies i.e. becomes immune to the virus. Then doctors also say that depends not only on whether you are exposed but also how much exposure you had to the virus (e.g. someone coughs directly on you streaming and making you inhale 3k contaminated droplets) and your body becomes overwhelmed to fight back, and thus you may get a severe infection. Again another contradiction or? if you become immune by any exposure level then it should not matter how much exposure you get or? This theory of little vs. a lot of exposure may explain why some doctors despite being young die ... but I see a bit of a contradiction here or?

Anyways I didn't want to call the Hospital and bother them with my silly questions ... maybe there is someone here who knows and can help. As I see it, we've all had it or will have it at some point, it's just a matter of time and the measures are just there not to overwhelm the health system out of capacity.
To try to answer your questions:
1) There is no treatment for this disease, what we do now with patients with severe COVID is to support their vital functions. Can't oxygenate? Give oxygen or give pressurized oxygen or intubate and hook the patient to a ventilator that will breathe for them, depending on severity. Fever too high, muscle pain too intense? Give acetaminophen. And so on with every other sign or symptom. It's just supportive care. In ICUs they are trying every drug in the book, so far nothing definitive has emerged.

2) Amount of exposure doesn't matter. We consider someone exposed if they spent 15 minutes within a 2 meter radius of someone who is infected and wasn't wearing a mask. Severity of the disease depends on personal factors such as genetics, your immune system's response and pre-existing conditions. Doctors die because they work in ICUs until they pass out from difficulty breathing and are intubated much much later than other patients. They die because they work around the clock for days on end. They die because their bodies are already past collapsing point but they keep working because otherwise their patients will die. Other young patients sometimes die too and right now we don't really know why. Their immune system probably went into overdrive and ended up causing more harm than the virus itself, but that's pure speculation at this point.
And right now we don't know how immune people get after exposure. There almost certainly is a level of immunity granted through the disease but we have no idea how long it lasts. Could be that immunity only lasts a few weeks, right now we don't know.
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  #5583  
Old 29.03.2020, 11:43
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Re: Coronavirus

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In the press conference Berset said, they got anonymized data, only one person in BAG has access to them so far and they can only see crowds appearing. According to that, no, they did not know whether you specifically are staying at home.
They said on the news on the radio the other day that Swisscom were analysing the mobile phone data and alerting the authorities to any areas where there were more than 20 people per 100 m2.
They’re not tracking individuals just the general usage.
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Old 29.03.2020, 11:46
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Re: Coronavirus

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Given that we don't have reliable tests at the moment a lot of the positives after a second or third test they test negative.

Italian microbiologist calls on the Italian government to stop publishing new infected patients because of this reason

https://www.secoloditalia.it/2020/03...-dati-falsati/
PCR testing is extraordinarily reliable. It's more reliable than every other testing method out there. The risk is actually to get false negatives because the swab wasn't inserted far enough into the patient's nasal cavity.
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Old 29.03.2020, 11:49
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Re: Coronavirus

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They said on the news on the radio the other day that Swisscom were analysing the mobile phone data and alerting the authorities to any areas where there were more than 20 people per 100 m2.
They’re not tracking individuals just the general usage.
Yep. As I said.
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Old 29.03.2020, 11:54
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Re: Simple DIY masks could help flatten COVID19 curve. It's time to start wearing the

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Putting on my common sense hat - there were not enough masks to go around.

The few that were available needed to go to those with the virus, and to health workers.

The biggest problem with laymen without corona-virus wearing masks is firstly, they do not know how to wear them correctly and secondly, they'd probably end up infecting themselves anyway by repeatedly putting their hands to their faces to adjust their masks.
Thirdly, they wouldn't appreciate how often they would need to be washed or changed.

I don't see a conspiracy.
Another "common sense" argument I don't really agree with, 1.people can be educated how to wear them, in hong kong in every media channel also in official health department press conferences they show you how to wear them and dispose them correctly. 2.Scientists in HK came up with DIY mask ideas backed by real filtration tests results(go over to my other thread "how to make your own protective masks for details), no shortage problems, all materials can be found in your own home, no sewing machine? do it by hand, half an hour of work.

Improvise, adapt, overcome.

But good information doesn't travel far, truth is not exciting. And people in charge seem to think that they can only give out "child proof" instructions or else most people are too dumb to follow. "people are not ready for it", "rather say it's useless than them using it incorrectly".
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  #5587  
Old 29.03.2020, 11:56
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Re: Coronavirus

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PCR testing is extraordinarily reliable. It's more reliable than every other testing method out there. The risk is actually to get false negatives because the swab wasn't inserted far enough into the patient's nasal cavity.
So medical workers just now aren't properly using the equipment and they get a lot of non-reliable data... But previously they were managing to perform the tests well?

What gives?
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  #5588  
Old 29.03.2020, 12:06
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Re: Coronavirus

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So medical workers just now aren't properly using the equipment and they get a lot of non-reliable data... But previously they were managing to perform the tests well?

What gives?
Do you know how the swab is performed? They insert something through your nostril and move it into your nasal cavity until they hit your throat. I'm sure you can imagine how uncomfortable that is. Sometimes the patient moves his/her head away. Sometimes they start crying or screaming and storm off. It's hard to get a proper sample. The rate of false negatives is the same as ever, it's just that because we do so many tests now the number of false test results is higher, simple math.
The numbers are real, most likely underestimated. We don't know enough about this yet. It's only been months. We will probably need years to make proper sense of the data that is being collected as we speak.
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Old 29.03.2020, 12:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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Given that we don't have reliable tests at the moment a lot of the positives after a second or third test they test negative.

Italian microbiologist calls on the Italian government to stop publishing new infected patients because of this reason

https://www.secoloditalia.it/2020/03...-dati-falsati/
You are again telling lies. Nowhere in the article it is mentioned that the tests are unreliable, actually they are very reliable.

Amazing that you are allowed to keep spitting your filth.
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  #5590  
Old 29.03.2020, 12:37
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Re: Coronavirus

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Do you know how the swab is performed? They insert something through your nostril and move it into your nasal cavity until they hit your throat. I'm sure you can imagine how uncomfortable that is. Sometimes the patient moves his/her head away. Sometimes they start crying or screaming and storm off. It's hard to get a proper sample. The rate of false negatives is the same as ever, it's just that because we do so many tests now the number of false test results is higher, simple math.
The numbers are real, most likely underestimated. We don't know enough about this yet. It's only been months. We will probably need years to make proper sense of the data that is being collected as we speak.

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And sometimes even the test are redone for the second or third time to the same subject.
How can this be due to a faulty swab? OK, faulty swab a first time, but a second? Or third?

How can a faulty swab give a first test positive and than a second test negative?
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Old 29.03.2020, 12:50
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Re: Coronavirus

We take some naso-pharyngeal secretions and analyze those. Do you think the virus is nice and orderly and spreads itself evenly in every ml of secretion produced by a patient? And I don't spek Italian so I can't read your article, I don't know why they took a second or third sample.
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Old 29.03.2020, 12:58
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Re: Coronavirus

Used to have a bit of quiteness before the virus hit. Monday to Friday was peaceful out walking. But now everday is like a Sunday( especially with nice weather). Really hope this crisis is over soon and restore some normality to us retirees!
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  #5593  
Old 29.03.2020, 13:27
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Re: Coronavirus

I added V__ to my ignore list, still cannot get away from this person because every second post is in response to his/her idiotic crusade. What more can I do? I guess nothing. Signal to noise ratio of this thread has plummeted, well done V__, be proud of yourself.
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  #5594  
Old 29.03.2020, 14:04
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Re: Coronavirus

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PCR testing is extraordinarily reliable. It's more reliable than every other testing method out there. The risk is actually to get false negatives because the swab wasn't inserted far enough into the patient's nasal cavity.
for covid-19, it was found that rt-pcr testing sensitivity was only around 70%. meaning that you have about 30% false negative.
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Old 29.03.2020, 14:10
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Re: Coronavirus

#45,293 in Chronicles of Coronaviral Irony:

Pastor Who Claimed Covid-19 ‘Hysteria’ Was Plot Against Trump Dies From Virus

I don't know what V__'s crusade is all about, but apparently it doesn't pay to downplay the severity of COVID-19.
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Old 29.03.2020, 14:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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You are again telling lies. Nowhere in the article it is mentioned that the tests are unreliable, actually they are very reliable.

Amazing that you are allowed to keep spitting your filth.
Exactly. On the one had we have an ignorant argumentative idiotic self-aggrandising pffff peddler, on the other someone who actually works with the effects of this virus.

I know who my money is on believing.
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  #5597  
Old 29.03.2020, 14:21
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Re: Coronavirus

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I don't know what V__'s crusade is all about, but apparently it doesn't pay to downplay the severity of COVID-19.
I personally I'm against the panic caused from this virus. I see large part of the current mess is caused by the panic and not the virus itself

I'm not downplaying the virus, we have it in a similar form every year, but we don't panic and handle it much better.

If people weren't stockpiling masks and medical supplies doctors in Italy would have been much better prepared and wouldn't be exposed as they are now

We were reading the news in China when they were building hospitals in 10 days yet we didn't prepare in any way in Europe. Nobody said "let's stockpile medical supplies just in case"

2 months later panic snowballed and escalated the situation and now it's the virus's fault. It isn't
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Old 29.03.2020, 14:22
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Re: Coronavirus

Can't we open a separate corona hoax thread, in the jokes section, where everyone can post bizarre theories to keep this thread a bit clean?
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Old 29.03.2020, 14:25
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Re: Coronavirus

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We take some naso-pharyngeal secretions and analyze those. Do you think the virus is nice and orderly and spreads itself evenly in every ml of secretion produced by a patient? And I don't spek Italian so I can't read your article, I don't know why they took a second or third sample.

Don't worry, the article only sets out a theory according to which it would be better, from a psychological point of view, to stop providing data regarding the number of positives on a daily basis, because sampling is objectively non-homogeneous. As for the second or third test, it is only a supposition, there is no reference to any data.
Of course, as usual it is easier to read only the headline and draw wrong conclusions.

Thank you for your punctual and precise answers, perfectly in line with what I read from Italian doctors.
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Old 29.03.2020, 14:27
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Re: Coronavirus

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What the pastor quoted here said, pretty much.
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#45,293 in Chronicles of Coronaviral Irony:

Pastor Who Claimed Covid-19 ‘Hysteria’ Was Plot Against Trump Dies From Virus

I don't know what V__'s crusade is all about, but apparently it doesn't pay to downplay the severity of COVID-19.
But, I hope V__ doesn't get hoisted by his own petard.
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