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Old 15.04.2020, 13:53
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Re: Coronavirus

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The question is now is what do the epidemiologists see as the least damaging way to achieve either a) herd immunity, and/or b) keep the cases low in the long term without destroying the economy.

I want to see an plan devised by experts that does not rely on a vaccine.
I don't think, realistically, that you will see any 1yr plan counting on a vaccine. Though I wish it wasn't the case.

In CZ, where they are reopening, there is another aspect than economy and mortality. Mental health. So, there are a bunch of hotlines launched, just like during floods, many psychologists and therapists volunteer. 1st stores opened are DIY and bikes, 1st allowance for no mask is running and cycling.
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  #7362  
Old 15.04.2020, 13:55
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Re: Coronavirus

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The healthcare system is coping because of the lockdown.
That's like saying "wow, I had such a pain with my broken toe nail so I grabbed my shotgun and shot it, now I feel no toe nail pain at all"

Sure, it will be a good decision for the first 30 seconds or so, until the adrenaline rush is over

The real victims of the lockdown will be known in the near future and most likely they will pass those of corona virus.

Already in Switzerland medical staff is sent home unemployed and from the usual 60% hospital utilization we are at a super low 30%. Most people can not get any non-urgent medical care at this moment. You need knee surgery? No way mate, you are non-urgent. Your doctor is playing tennis all day anyway.

Sweden is just another example that the health system can cope when they don't over hospitalize patients. Most people have mild or no symptoms of corona, only a fraction of them will really need hospitalization. The issue with Italy apart from the age is also over use of respirators which in many cases have worsen the condition. People had far more chances beating the virus by staying at home and taking pain killers.

But you have somebody from a risk group, going into a hospital, likely catching a superbug there, bam pneumonia, in combination with corona - death.

The mother of a friend of mine, 84, a month ago, high fever, pain in muscles, tested positive covid, under no circumstances she was brought into a hospital, even with heavy breathing, just paracetamol and pain killers, 2 weeks later she is digging the garden preparing for spring. If she had by any means went to the hospital "as a precaution" I'm just it would have not ended up that way

And not to start on the economic consequences this lock down will bring, we will want corona back
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  #7363  
Old 15.04.2020, 14:04
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Re: Coronavirus

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That's like saying "wow, I had such a pain with my broken toe nail so I grabbed my shotgun and shot it, now I feel no toe nail pain at all"

Sure, it will be a good decision for the first 30 seconds or so, until the adrenaline rush is over

The real victims of the lockdown will be known in the near future and most likely they will pass those of corona virus.

Already in Switzerland medical staff is sent home unemployed and from the usual 60% hospital utilization we are at a super low 30%. Most people can not get any non-urgent medical care at this moment. You need knee surgery? No way mate, you are non-urgent. Your doctor is playing tennis all day anyway.

Sweden is just another example that the health system can cope when they don't over hospitalize patients. Most people have mild or no symptoms of corona, only a fraction of them will really need hospitalization. The issue with Italy apart from the age is also over use of respirators which in many cases have worsen the condition. People had far more chances beating the virus by staying at home and taking pain killers.

But you have somebody from a risk group, going into a hospital, likely catching a superbug there, bam pneumonia, in combination with corona - death.

The mother of a friend of mine, 84, a month ago, high fever, pain in muscles, tested positive covid, under no circumstances she was brought into a hospital, even with heavy breathing, just paracetamol and pain killers, 2 weeks later she is digging the garden preparing for spring. If she had by any means went to the hospital "as a precaution" I'm just it would have not ended up that way

And not to start on the economic consequences this lock down will bring, we will want corona back
One could ignore this as ?????????? but the seriousness of people actually following this advice ... words fail me
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Old 15.04.2020, 14:09
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Re: Coronavirus

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One could ignore this as ?????????? but the seriousness of people actually following this advice ... words fail me
I didn't even read it. I don't even think he believes his guff anymore
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  #7365  
Old 15.04.2020, 14:34
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Re: Coronavirus

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I have tried "cheap good" and champagne and "expensive good" champagne and it is my genuine belief that it is also a load of absolute pretentious BS, same as with many delicacies such as caviar. Caviar used to be an appetizer on the level of peanuts, free in ye olden bars and often fed to dogs, and then one day someone, probably from Russia, decided it would be a delicacy fit for a king.

Many such luxuries are man-made cultural nonsense designed to make people feel better about themselves and gauge their worth, and very often no reflection of actual taste and/or refinement.
kind of like Swiss watches
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Old 15.04.2020, 14:35
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Re: Coronavirus

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Trump's White House speech in full swing now and first highlight of the day is Trump will cease United States funding
to the World Health Organistion almost immediately.
Following which we get a list of all Trumps perceived failings of the WHO's handling of the present crisis.
As posted in the Trump thread "According to the attached Statement of Account the US have not been making their payments to the WHO for some time, US still owes $11,833,863 from 2018.
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Old 15.04.2020, 14:53
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Re: Coronavirus

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Everyone with a bit of common sense and who doesn't want to be a complete asshole neither on internet nor in real life is labeled "woke" or even worse - "socialist".....
This.
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Old 15.04.2020, 15:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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Where can one find these guidelines? It doesn't make sense to me, I have had robust posts deleted when debating a topic for being aggressive and inflammatory, but see direct insults and name calling and foul language left alone. It doesn't make sense to me
Ah. The Venn sweet spot. Something we agree on. This.

However, I fear the answer will be thus: there are no guidelines, not really, everything is decided on a case-by-case basis, and it depends entirely on who you are, what you say and, crucially, who you say it to. One person's bullying is another's rough-and-tumble. One person's blunt opinion is someone else's notion of aggression.

Welcome to EF: the water is muddied and frequently very very funny *






*though often for reasons other than intended.
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Old 15.04.2020, 15:04
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Re: Coronavirus

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The healthcare system is coping because of the lockdown.
A crucial key point that many on here are (wilfully) ignorant of. They seem somehow disappointed that the NHS isn't buckling.
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  #7370  
Old 15.04.2020, 15:13
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Re: Coronavirus

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A crucial key point that many on here are (wilfully) ignorant of. They seem somehow disappointed that the NHS isn't buckling.
Don't overestimate its importance to people from an English speaking forum in Switzerland
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Old 15.04.2020, 15:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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Don't overestimate its importance to people from an English speaking forum in Switzerland
I'm not. The only folk who are adamant that it's not as bad as it seems purport to be from the UK.

I could say the same about your constant references to CZ: even fewer CZ folk on here than Brits, I'd wager.
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  #7372  
Old 15.04.2020, 15:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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I didn't even read it. I don't even think he believes his guff anymore

He will prove you wrong by quitting his Swiss job and moving to Sweden...
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Old 15.04.2020, 15:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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Tomorrow 16.04 there should be a press conference from the CH Bundesrat to announce the plan to lift the restrictions: shops, schools, bars, gyms, etc.
Weehee. You can sense the excitement rising, people are excited here at their windows when they clap and talk at 9pm.
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Old 15.04.2020, 15:26
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Re: Coronavirus

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He will prove you wrong by quitting his Swiss job and moving to Sweden...
I sense a turn in the future, though, I bet SWE has just became a top place to come for work. It wouldn't surprise me that what we see as hap-hasard and anarchy is very calculated and using costly sacrifice of other countries. I don't know how I feel about it but that's irrelevant.
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Old 15.04.2020, 15:27
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Re: Coronavirus

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He will prove you wrong by quitting his Swiss job and moving to Sweden...
I've been working as usual for the whole duration of the "lock down", I have my own company and can not afford to "stay at home"

The only people in favor of "lock down" are those who are employed and their salaries are safe because "money always can be printed" as one member from here famously said, they favor "strict" lock down yet those are the ones constantly out on picnics, parks and walks

I've seen much more activity every day since the lock down by families and elders than before, 3 days ago the Police in Lausanne cordoned off parks and part of ports because people were bbqing and picnicking on beach tables

So to say that Switzerland has been self isolating in the last month is joke of the month

I wouldn't mind to be in Sweden or anywhere at this moment, I went to France on Thursday for work, there were no guards at the border and you couldn't see a soul on the streets in France. Compared to Switzerland it was deserted.

But those lock down measures are doing wonders they tell us
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  #7376  
Old 15.04.2020, 15:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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Wait a min....

Switzerland population = 8.57 million, covid19 death = 900 up today, deaths per million ~ 105 death per million

Sweden population = 10.23 million, covid19 deaths up today = 1033, deaths per million ~ 101 death per million
Actually:

Switzerland population = 8.57 million, covid19 death = 1221 up today, deaths per million ~ 142 death per million

Sweden population = 10.23 million, covid19 deaths up today = 1217, deaths per million ~ 119 death per million

But Sweden unfortunately is playing a very decent game of catch up, where our hospitalisations and IC usage due to Corona has gone down about 10% since the 1st of April, theirs has gone up about 60%
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Old 15.04.2020, 15:31
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Re: Coronavirus

So even in liberal Sweden the peak is most likely passed...

"Anders Wallensten, the deputy state epidemiologist at the Public Health Agency, said that there were in fact positive signs that the rise in daily reported cases had not been as steep as expected following these delays.

Of this slowdown, he said: "At the moment it looks like it's a lasting decline, so I'm cautiously positive. However, we must wait to see if there is any lag [in reporting].""
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Old 15.04.2020, 15:34
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Re: Coronavirus

Switzerland's weekly death figures (all causes, not just COVID-19 related) for week 14 (Monday, March 30 – Sunday, April 5)
coronavirus-ga-e-14.03.04.03-wr-computed_thumbnail.png
According the Federal Statistical Office the first reports for week 15 indicate that the number of deaths is no longer increasing.
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Old 15.04.2020, 15:35
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Re: Coronavirus

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I've been working as usual for the whole duration of the "lock down", I have my own company and can not afford to "stay at home"

The only people in favor of "lock down" are those who are employed and their salaries are safe because "money always can be printed" as one member from here famously said, they favor "strict" lock down yet those are the ones constantly out on picnics, parks and walks

Also working full time as an employee. The lockdown does impact the sales of the company, AR is going down a lot and companies do pay later and later. So companies are not all that safe and money cannot be printed. To get government support there are a LOT of restrictions and it is not that easy to get that support.
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Old 15.04.2020, 15:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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I've been working as usual for the whole duration of the "lock down", I have my own company and can not afford to "stay at home"

I'm a happy employee. Somehow we have the time to post 2,3 or 4 times per hour in the forum. Let's acknowledge work is easy, otherwise we wouldn't be here.
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