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Old 15.04.2020, 16:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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Don't overestimate its importance to people from an English speaking forum in Switzerland
Just had a quick check through the 134 UK based close friends and family on my FB list.
1 NHS doctor in London
4 NHS nurses, 1 of whom is currently working on a dedicated covid ward that has seen almost 40 fatalities.
2 NHS midwives
1 NHS theatre nurse
2 NHS hospital receptionists
4 vulnerable adult carers including my cousin who is the manager of a nursing home.
14 families who are self-isolating for 12 weeks after receiving the government advice letter.

What's more, I bet the majority of Brits on this forum know a similar number of frontline NHS workers, carers and families in self-isolation for 12 weeks.
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  #7382  
Old 15.04.2020, 16:23
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Re: Coronavirus

New York City, already a world epicenter of the coronavirus outbreak, sharply increased its death toll by more than 3,700 victims on Tuesday, after officials said they were now including people who had never tested positive for the virus but were presumed to have died of it.

This sounds like fake news right?

Nah, it's in the New York Times and confirmed by the Health Department.

Apparently nobody can die from natural causes these days...
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Old 15.04.2020, 16:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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Also at this point V_ is almost certainly enjoying riling up members with this 'lockdown is useless' narrative.
Self-righteous people who can't admit they might be wrong getting mad because others don't share their opinions... What's not to enjoy?
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  #7384  
Old 15.04.2020, 16:36
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Re: Coronavirus

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New York City, already a world epicenter of the coronavirus outbreak, sharply increased its death toll by more than 3,700 victims on Tuesday, after officials said they were now including people who had never tested positive for the virus but were presumed to have died of it.

This sounds like fake news right?

Nah, it's in the New York Times and confirmed by the Health Department.

Apparently nobody can die from natural causes these days...
Why is it fake news? There can be false negatives from testing, maybe tests weren‘t available and now there aren‘t enough tests to test the dead. If the signs are consistent with the virus, why would you not count those deaths among deaths due to covid-19?
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Old 15.04.2020, 16:39
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Re: Coronavirus

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Which buttons am I pushing? The ones that slowly but surely show that all of this has been a media hype and not much else? Or the fact that countries are slowly starting to go to Sweden's approach, seeing, no matter how effective lock down measures can seem, eventually societies need to reopen and what is 100% sure is that the virus will still be around?
Emphasis mine. Oh bless, this was all a misunderstanding. Now I see where you're coming from! You thought lockdowns meant the virus would disappear like magic, just like Trump said.

But no, it was about flattening the curve. Was the curve a little less sharp in some places than expected? Perhaps. Was the curve a little less sharp due to lockdowns/restrictions? That seems to be a yes. For me the question is not whether lockdowns worked, but whether they had to be THAT strict.

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New York City, already a world epicenter of the coronavirus outbreak, sharply increased its death toll by more than 3,700 victims on Tuesday, after officials said they were now including people who had never tested positive for the virus but were presumed to have died of it....

Apparently nobody can die from natural causes these days...
To be fair, the statistics you're quoting about regular flu are also estimates. Doctors don't test people for the seasonal flu. They talk to patients over the phone or do an exam in person and say yep, that's flu. If someone dies while having such symptoms, they're often counted as dying of the seasonal flu. Thus why most sentences you see about seasonal flu deaths are along the lines of "an estimated 250,000-600,000 people die of seasonal flu each year".

Have I mentioned before that this isn't over yet so it's pointless to compare numbers as of April 15, 2020 with any year that's already passed?
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  #7386  
Old 15.04.2020, 16:41
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Re: Coronavirus

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kind of like Swiss watches
It's certainly similar in principle (like all luxury goods, no?), but different in practise. At least you can theoretically enjoy a $5000 watch every day and still pass it down to your children. Try that with a $5000 bottle of bubbly or tin of caviar.

Anyway, it's moot point and ultimately of no significance in this thread and lets not de-rail it any further.
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Old 15.04.2020, 16:41
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Re: Coronavirus

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This sounds like fake news right?
Tell me again, I kind of have lost track, exactly how many name tags did you put on dead people's toes in the last two months?
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Old 15.04.2020, 16:45
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Re: Coronavirus

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I've been working as usual for the whole duration of the "lock down", I have my own company and can not afford to "stay at home"
You sure seem busy. 1 man operation, or do you manage a whole farm of trolls?
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  #7389  
Old 15.04.2020, 16:46
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Re: Coronavirus

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But no, it was about flattening the curve. Was the curve a little less sharp in some places than expected? Perhaps.
The curved has been flatten even in Sweden without severe lock down measures. For example, the big hospital they created in fear of new cases? Well, it's closed down without even having 1 patient

This is an article from Tageblatt.

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Sweden's strategy seems to work

Despite gloomy calls to doom from home and abroad over Sweden supposedly way too easy way in the corona crisis, the signs are increasing that
the crisis is under control, although almost everything was allowed.
by André Anwar
Stockholm is currently the freest city
Europe. Even if the country is not
has fewer problems with Covid-19,
So far almost everything has remained open: shops of all kinds and shopping centers,
Cafes, bars, gyms, smaller ones
Clubs, offices, kindergartens, schools up to
including ninth grade and even some cinemas. Even gatherings of 500 and then 50 people were allowed, and toilet paper is available
plentiful.
The malicious calls of doom from the
Abroad, where entire nations were locked up, but also from domestic critics were loud and numerous. Sweden would conduct a dangerous experiment at the expense of the elderly and the sick, for whom Covid-19 can be fatal.
Situation seems to be calming down
Contrary to all criticism, the
Situation to calm down significantly at the moment. Covid-19 has not been that terrible
despite loose containment policies.
A huge field hospital that was set up in Stockholm as a precaution
where most seriously ill are
remains completely closed due to lack of need. According to the latest figures from the Health Department yesterday afternoon, the numbers are the
Patients in intensive care units remain at a relatively low level
or even slightly declining. All in all
there are only 919 people in Sweden
died. The number of confirmed cases
is 10 948. However, in
Sweden very few people
tested. Could be noisy by the end of April
Prediction half of the people have the virus in them, often without it
to remember, or only with very light
Symptoms. Then comes a kind
Herd immunity to bear. Because it
there are so many who are immune
the virus is more difficult to spread. Even from the Stockholmers
Hospitals, which always complain about insufficient funds and too few staff, are the first to hear that the
Situation has calmed down.
Enough free places
At the Stockholm Karolinska Hospital, the situation in the corona intensive care unit has become much calmer, senior physician David Konrad told public television
SVT. More and more patients would
currently released from the clinic, he says.
And of the mostly old and
Seriously ill who have been admitted with life-threatening symptoms,
would have survived well over 80 percent. 177 intensive care units were free at the weekend
new patients. «There are many free places in the intensive care units in all
Stockholm hospitals, »said the
Senior physician. He is currently looking after
still around 127 corona patients. Only about six to six come every day
twelve »patients with more severe symptoms. «We are approaching it
Flattening of the disease curve »,
says Konrad.
All-clear from the health department
Also those responsible from the health department, which is almost in Sweden
all alone responsible without politicians about the corona policy for the good
ten million Swedes decide
make the all clear.
In terms of their sense of duty, the Swedes are more German than the Germans, which should have contributed to the favorable development so far.
Of course, it is always emphasized that it
too early for a final one
Statement. But Sweden appears
to be the right way if it is
not yet comes differently.
https://www.tageblatt.lu/headlines/l...funktionieren/
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  #7390  
Old 15.04.2020, 16:53
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Re: Coronavirus

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To be fair, the statistics you're quoting about regular flu are also estimates. Doctors don't test people for the seasonal flu. They talk to patients over the phone or do an exam in person and say yep, that's flu. If someone dies while having such symptoms, they're often counted as dying of the seasonal flu. Thus why most sentences you see about seasonal flu deaths are along the lines of "an estimated 250,000-600,000 people die of seasonal flu each year".
I do not know how it is in other countries. But flu is hardly recorded as the
actual cause of death in Switzerland. It is more likely cardiac arrest or pneumonia. Problem is that the statistic only allows one cause of death. The estimated number of deaths due to the flu are projected from the weekly death figures as shown in my post above.
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Old 15.04.2020, 16:54
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Re: Coronavirus

Given the following screenshot just taken from worldometer, Sweden doesn't seem to be doing so well atm:


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  #7392  
Old 15.04.2020, 17:09
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Re: Coronavirus

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That's like saying "wow, I had such a pain with my broken toe nail so I grabbed my shotgun and shot it, now I feel no toe nail pain at all"

Sure, it will be a good decision for the first 30 seconds or so, until the adrenaline rush is over

The real victims of the lockdown will be known in the near future and most likely they will pass those of corona virus.

Already in Switzerland medical staff is sent home unemployed and from the usual 60% hospital utilization we are at a super low 30%. Most people can not get any non-urgent medical care at this moment. You need knee surgery? No way mate, you are non-urgent. Your doctor is playing tennis all day anyway.

Sweden is just another example that the health system can cope when they don't over hospitalize patients. Most people have mild or no symptoms of corona, only a fraction of them will really need hospitalization. The issue with Italy apart from the age is also over use of respirators which in many cases have worsen the condition. People had far more chances beating the virus by staying at home and taking pain killers.

But you have somebody from a risk group, going into a hospital, likely catching a superbug there, bam pneumonia, in combination with corona - death.

The mother of a friend of mine, 84, a month ago, high fever, pain in muscles, tested positive covid, under no circumstances she was brought into a hospital, even with heavy breathing, just paracetamol and pain killers, 2 weeks later she is digging the garden preparing for spring. If she had by any means went to the hospital "as a precaution" I'm just it would have not ended up that way

And not to start on the economic consequences this lock down will bring, we will want corona back
I think the main problem that most governments face, and the reluctance to end the lockdowns, is that the coronavirus deaths are so visible. People just won't accept that by ending the lockdowns there will be countless lives saved, many many times those dying from coronavirus because a) they're invisible and b) there is no way of counting/proving them.
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Old 15.04.2020, 17:15
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Re: Coronavirus

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I think the main problem that most governments face, and the reluctance to end the lockdowns, is that the coronavirus deaths are so visible. People just won't accept that by ending the lockdowns there will be countless lives saved, many many times those dying from coronavirus because a) they're invisible and b) there is no way of counting/proving them.
I'm confused. How will ending lockdowns save lives?
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Old 15.04.2020, 17:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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I think the main problem that most governments face, and the reluctance to end the lockdowns, is that the coronavirus deaths are so visible. People just won't accept that by ending the lockdowns there will be countless lives saved, many many times those dying from coronavirus because a) they're invisible and b) there is no way of counting/proving them.
Faulty logic circuit. Reboot. If that does not work, replace.
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Old 15.04.2020, 17:22
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Re: Coronavirus

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To be fair, the statistics you're quoting about regular flu are also estimates. Doctors don't test people for the seasonal flu. They talk to patients over the phone or do an exam in person and say yep, that's flu. If someone dies while having such symptoms, they're often counted as dying of the seasonal flu. Thus why most sentences you see about seasonal flu deaths are along the lines of "an estimated 250,000-600,000 people die of seasonal flu each year".

Have I mentioned before that this isn't over yet so it's pointless to compare numbers as of April 15, 2020 with any year that's already passed?
I don't think 'seasonal flu' gets written on death certificates, from flu the cause of death would usually be pneumonia & pneumonia would be stated at the primary cause of death.
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Old 15.04.2020, 17:23
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm confused. How will ending lockdowns save lives?
On a 5 year view probably make very little difference, a few less suicides, less alcohol related deaths & a few less people starving to death due to increased poverty going forward.
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Old 15.04.2020, 17:25
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm confused. How will ending lockdowns save lives?
Economic depressions cause lost lives.
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Old 15.04.2020, 17:29
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Re: Coronavirus

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New York City, already a world epicenter of the coronavirus outbreak, sharply increased its death toll by more than 3,700 victims on Tuesday, after officials said they were now including people who had never tested positive for the virus but were presumed to have died of it.

This sounds like fake news right?

Nah, it's in the New York Times and confirmed by the Health Department.

Apparently nobody can die from natural causes these days...
LOL! Just LOL!
I have never seen a death certificate with "Medical Cause of Death; Natural Causes".
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Old 15.04.2020, 17:30
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Re: Coronavirus

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It's certainly similar in principle (like all luxury goods, no?), but different in practise. At least you can theoretically enjoy a $5000 watch every day and still pass it down to your children. Try that with a $5000 bottle of bubbly or tin of caviar.

Anyway, it's moot point and ultimately of no significance in this thread and lets not de-rail it any further.
Pleased to see you have raised the bar 10 times of the price of the Champagne in question today or 80 times more than the cost when I drank it. A $5000 bottle of wine will almost certainly be a better investment than a $5,000 mass produced Swiss watch, the wine can also be passed down to your children. Those 1982 bottles of DP will certainly be saleable at auction for a very long time.
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Old 15.04.2020, 17:39
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On a 5 year view probably make very little difference, a few less suicides, less alcohol related deaths & a few less people starving to death due to increased poverty going forward.
People die. That is indeed a certainty. The issue here is whether or not deaths from Covid-19 are preventable. Now. Not in 5 years. The 5-years-in-the-future stats will be applicable then. You may as well say "I'm going to die at some point so I may as well stop eating now."

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Economic depressions cause lost lives.
They may. However it is not certain that lifting the lockdown now is any good. We could just see a resurgence and have to start all over again. Better to see this thing out. And believe me I do not say this lightly. A significant chunk of my annual income has been completely eradicated this year.
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