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  #7521  
Old 16.04.2020, 15:13
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Re: Coronavirus

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You said they cannot reopen things because a resurgence might occur.

He then mentioned that no matter how long the lockdown goes for a resurgence still might occur.

You then said "Let's just try the 12 weeks, eh?"

He is now asking if after the 12 weeks you will be willing to risk some people possibly dying - his logic being that we cannot afford to stay locked down forever and it may be better to get it over and done with, bleeding hearts be damned.
I can read, ta. Was wondering why FMF was apparently trying to hold me solely responsible. I mean, I'm flattered but there's sod all I can do until I'm finally made Queen of the Universe.

It's not logic. Btw. Just another opinion.

The 12 weeks is to give the curve maximum chance to flatten. For overwhelmed medical systems to catch up, have chance to breathe and no doubt grieve.

I'd rather be a bleeding heart, even though it's a pejorative term, than a solipsistic nightmare who thinks only in terms of money.
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  #7522  
Old 16.04.2020, 15:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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To me it seems that you're rushing a bit and are misjudging people's concerns. I think most if not all people worry about economy, maybe some more than others but I think we can all visualise what can happen if we're blocked in this crisis and don't find solutions to gradually open the economy - or well, the part that has been closed.
I don't perceive the discussion to be this way. I perceive most people's reaction to be "how dare you look at economic/political/[insert more] factors IF PEOPLE ARE DYING. That is what I've seen here. Yes I have selective perception of course, as we all do. As you say correctly further down, it's not either or, it's both. I have seen very few people being willing to have a broader conversation about this, here, and I have to say even in my personal direct environment (some of them anyway).

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My opinion is that fear will persist for months if not years to go, and you can't force people out of their fear or prudence with their spendings. We can't go back where we are right now. Not for a long time. Fear will persist as long as you don't take serious precautionary measures and keep some of those things everyone is unhappy for in place for longer.
Absolutely no one will be forced to do anything. I don't understand why people freak out if you claim things need to be reopened. Whoever wants to continue to stay home, or "just" go to work where needed, or limit their social interactions, is absolutely allowed to do so. No one is forcing anyone to get a haircut or grab a beer or whatever. Workers can be protected with certain rules and for all others, activities are voluntary. I don't care if people close themselves up for another three years, but the OPTIONS need to be there to stop this (looming) economic (and political) disaster.

And since you mention fear: that has been, in many ways, my point all along. Fear is not logical and as humans we are notoriously incapable of assessing risk properly. Illustrative example: I surf, for instance, and can't even remember how many times people have asked me if I'm afraid to get killed by a shark. No, I am not afraid to get killed by a shark as chances of that happening are smaller than getting hit by lightning twice. Yet I know dozens of people who don't even swim in the ocean for this absolutely exaggerated fear of sharks (even if it's a place where there are literally no shark). What I'm saying here is: people in fear are, almost by definition, irrational. There's nothing wrong with this, we are all afraid of some things and act irrationally in some parts of our lives, even if in others we're completely rational. But this is precisely why people who are currently NOT afraid need to be taken seriously, those who are not paralyzed, who try to see many aspects, the big picture, are able to illustrate consequences from every angle, who do think critically, who assess the role of multiple players, failures, successes, anything. I don't see enough of that.
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  #7523  
Old 16.04.2020, 15:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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We're moderators and not staff.
True. Staff are employed and usually have to maintain certain standards and consistently work to an agreed set of rules etc. Staff can also be sanctioned/ removed if consistently under-performing.

Moderators are supposed to arbitrate/mediate.

HTH.
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  #7524  
Old 16.04.2020, 15:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'd be very happy if it turns out one day that I was wrong.

And in the case my fears that we've done more harm than good turn out correct I will have absolutely no satisfaction
You can be happy today! No need to wait anymore

Covid19 deaths per million people: Sweden 130, Switzerland 114

PS. the Swedish Folkhälsomyndigheten set up a slick website, no problems with fax machines over there https://experience.arcgis.com/experi...6f9f87457ed9aa

Last edited by Axa; 16.04.2020 at 15:40.
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  #7525  
Old 16.04.2020, 15:20
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Re: Coronavirus

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I can read, ta. Was wondering why FMF was apparently trying to hold me solely responsible.
Because you were saying easing restrictions is no good as there may be a resurgence and he was just poking holes in your logic.
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  #7526  
Old 16.04.2020, 15:21
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Re: Coronavirus

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Which is what some have been advocating on this thread for some time.
You finally admitted.

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If everyone put him on their ignore lists instead of engaging, there would be no debate.
As mentioned before, there's a problem with the ignore function. I know, you're right though. Perhaps I should put the whole forum on the ignore list. (not really in my character to ignore people, in a discussion I'm either in or out)
I don't mind other opinions as long as they're expressed in good faith. I don't think some folks here are genuine tbh. Playing the devil's advocate should be exhausting for some, seriously. I'll let them be "right" on an online forum, no probs.
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  #7527  
Old 16.04.2020, 15:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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Because you were saying easing restrictions now is no good as there may be a resurgence and he was just poking holes in your logic.
Sigh. Logic.

You are quite right. You win. You are in fact the most winningist on this thread. And I do so enjoy being told what I said. It's very helpful. Also very sweet that you're helping out your friend. It's lovely when boys play together isn't it?

He didn't poke holes in anything. This isn't a case of logic. Is a brand new situation. Everyone is just doing their best in the dark with one hand tied behind their back. Apart from folk like Trump and Johnson et all who are the ones who were standing within easy reach of the switch and are now in possession of all the damn rope.
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  #7528  
Old 16.04.2020, 15:40
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Re: Coronavirus

The Swiss have released the ramp up dates.

3 steps, 27th April, 11th May, 8th June


Book those hairdresser appointments now!
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  #7529  
Old 16.04.2020, 15:46
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Re: Coronavirus

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The Swiss have released the ramp up dates.

3 steps, 27th April, 11th May, 8th June


Book those hairdresser appointments now!

A lot of people will probably be interested to learn when Germany opens the shops again so they can continue the cross border shopping


Note: shops up to 800m2 size in Germany may open soon again
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  #7530  
Old 16.04.2020, 15:48
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Re: Coronavirus

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A lot of people will probably be interested to learn when Germany opens the shops again so they can continue the cross border shopping


Note: shops up to 800m2 size in Germany may open soon again
But how do we get to them, or how much shopping can you fit on a stand up paddleboard?
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  #7531  
Old 16.04.2020, 15:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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A lot of people will probably be interested to learn when Germany opens the shops again so they can continue the cross border shopping


Note: shops up to 800m2 size in Germany may open soon again
The've actually implemented a 100 Chf fine for people who engage in cross border shopping.
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  #7532  
Old 16.04.2020, 15:51
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Re: Coronavirus

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The've actually implemented a 100 Chf fine for people who engage in cross border shopping.
So you're saying it's only worth it if the savings are more than 100 CHF? That adds additional accounting into the mix...
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  #7533  
Old 16.04.2020, 16:18
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Re: Coronavirus

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You can be happy today! No need to wait anymore

Covid19 deaths per million people: Sweden 130, Switzerland 114

PS. the Swedish Folkhälsomyndigheten set up a slick website, no problems with fax machines over there https://experience.arcgis.com/experi...6f9f87457ed9aa
Well Sweden is still behind Switzerland, 147 vs 132 and still on 12th place overall

Even if did a 1 month lock down to have same numbers as Sweden...What did we really gain?

On the other hand, Sweden sees 'downturn' in new coronavirus cases

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Meanwhile, the number of confirmed cases of the virus has risen to 12,540. Swedish health authorities had expected a sharp rise on Wednesday as previously unreported data from Easter came in, but that rise did not come. On Thursday, the number of new cases still had not increased as much as expected.

"It has increased slightly in the past 24 hours, but we're still at the level we were at a couple of weeks ago. There was some kind of peak before the Easter weekend, and now there's some kind of downturn," Public Health Agency state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell told the agency's daily press conference at 2pm.
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  #7534  
Old 16.04.2020, 16:27
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Re: Coronavirus

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A lot of people will probably be interested to learn when Germany opens the shops again so they can continue the cross border shopping


Note: shops up to 800m2 size in Germany may open soon again
Roegner....

As much as I enjoy reading your posts, (and I'm assuming you said the above post tongue-in-cheek) I had to give this one a groan simply because we need to support our local Swiss shops more than ever before.
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  #7535  
Old 16.04.2020, 16:30
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Re: Coronavirus

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Roegner....

As much as I enjoy reading your posts, (and I'm assuming you said the above post tongue-in-cheek) I had to give this one a groan simply because we need to support our local Swiss shops more than ever before.

I´m with you but a lot of people still sneak over the border to try and go shopping in France/Germany........



Tongue-in-cheek :-)


It was not what I do or want but rather what a lot of others would like to do.


Why else is the police now fining people who still go shopping abroad?
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  #7536  
Old 16.04.2020, 16:55
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Re: Coronavirus

If the new plan is to keep restaurants and bars closed for another three months, how are they expected to survive? My understanding is that they are required to still pay staff as well as rent. Anyone dealing with this currently?
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  #7537  
Old 16.04.2020, 17:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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Well Sweden is still behind Switzerland, 147 vs 132 and still on 12th place overall

It's been a close race, but with a bit of luck Sweden will pull ahead on the final curve and leave Switzerland in the dust on the homestretch. How's about that San Marino!? What are the odds!? It's like when Donerail won the Derby back in '13!

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  #7538  
Old 16.04.2020, 17:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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Roegner....

As much as I enjoy reading your posts, (and I'm assuming you said the above post tongue-in-cheek) I had to give this one a groan simply because we need to support our extremely overexpensive local Swiss shops more than ever before.
ftfy
MWST is much lower here than in the surrounding countries plus electric/electronic goods are lower priced than in the surrounding countries so no reason for other prices to be double here.
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  #7539  
Old 16.04.2020, 17:31
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Re: Coronavirus

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Well Sweden is still behind Switzerland, 147 vs 132 and still on 12th place overall

Even if did a 1 month lock down to have same numbers as Sweden...What did we really gain?

On the other hand, Sweden sees 'downturn' in new coronavirus cases
This reminds me of the Falklands war when we were living in Switzerland and having to suffer the gutter press in England treating it as a game of cricket "gotcha". The numbers are of people dying; mothers, fathers, sons and daughters. It is not a game.
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  #7540  
Old 16.04.2020, 17:37
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Re: Coronavirus

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If the new plan is to keep restaurants and bars closed for another three months, how are they expected to survive? My understanding is that they are required to still pay staff as well as rent. Anyone dealing with this currently?
I can't answer that but sincerely hope that the lock down is worth it.
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