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  #7561  
Old 16.04.2020, 20:56
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Re: Coronavirus

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How is your comment a response to my post?
To simply encourage your friend that he doesn't have 2 options
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  #7562  
Old 16.04.2020, 20:59
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Re: Coronavirus

His point is not about life or death - it is about 65+ being asked to stay in confinement for much much longer than the rest of the population.

I do wonder, do you actually read posts? He doesn't want to live in confinement, alone, without a garden, without the theatre, cinema or walks, without friends -- just for the sake of living. Confinement is fine for a few months- but if asked to do so for 1 year or more- he'd rather live and take the risk ...He is extremely positive generally, active, bright, social, hugely curious and intelligent- doesn't have a TV and is widowed.

Last edited by Odile; 16.04.2020 at 21:44.
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  #7563  
Old 16.04.2020, 21:09
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Re: Coronavirus

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he'd rather live and take the risk ..
Which is exactly what I suggested in such scenario.

I completely understand him.
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  #7564  
Old 16.04.2020, 21:48
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Re: Coronavirus

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His point is not about life or death - it is about 65+ being asked to stay in confinement for much much longer than the rest of the population.

I do wonder, do you actually read posts? He doesn't want ot live in confinement, alone, without a garden, without the theatre, cinema or walks, without friends -- just for the sake of living. Confinement is fine for a few months- but if asked to do so for 1 year or more- he'd rather live and take the risk ...He is extremely positive generally, active, bright, social, hugely curious and intelligen- doesn't have a TV and is widowed.
I so understand your friend! I think many people feel that way, and would rather live, and live more fully, and take the risk, than stay cooped up at home. I feel like that myself.

The thing is, though, that each one who takes the risk, risks not only their own health and possibly life, but increases the risk for everyone else. It's the movement of people that increases the possible contact, that makes the spread possible, and rapidly so. A zillion pages ago, someone here described in detail the number of shared surfaces he/she would have to touch, just to leave the building. And then all the surfaces while out, and then to return.

With regard to EXIT, too, I can understand your friend. After all, what is this life if, full of care, we're not allowed to be out there? Besides, we all have to die of something, and it seems to me that the older we get, the less important the cause of death becomes. If COVID-19, then so be it.

I just don't consider my personal perspective on life and death, my personal lack of fear about it, to be sufficient to allow me to risk catching and passing on a virus which could be deadly to someone else... who may have much more reason to want or need to remain alive. That's why I stay at home.

Last edited by doropfiz; 16.04.2020 at 22:03.
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  #7565  
Old 16.04.2020, 21:48
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Re: Coronavirus

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I do wonder what the % of EF members are over 65?

Been discussing the likely possibility that over 65s will be asked to stay in lockdown for much longer than the rest of the population. And I can tell you theose over 65s are not happy. Many are lonely as it is, isolated even without - widowed or on their own - and others just cannot bear to not see their children and grandchildren, or friends, go out for lunch or to the theatre, etc, etc.

One 80+ year old, recently widowed- told me if that was to be the case, he saw only 2 options: civil disobedience or EXIT. He told me he has not got 1 year to waste - and to not live in order not to die- is just nonsensical. I agree.
No idea how many EFers are over 65. So far the "orders" in CH are just recommendations in terms of staying home. The only ones with penalties/fines are large groups. I don't see that changing to where granny is going to get fined for walking the dog.


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The media has made such a panic that most people think corona virus is a death sentence. It isn't. Many reports show that people in the risk groups have 80-90% chances of beating the virus. Not everyone from risk groups that catches it dies.
We won't know exact stats for a while, but it's clearly true that it's not an automatic death sentence.

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How is your comment a response to my post?
It's relevant because the current reactions/restrictions are in part due to the perception that it's super deadly to the elderly. For the moment, we're all responsible for each other so we go visit granny and accidentally get her sick and then she dies (so to speak).

If society accepts that we're going to have to live with this and move forward sooner rather than later to get the economy going, I think the onus will be placed on the at risk people - and those that have contact with them - to prevent themselves from getting sick. Harsh, but that seems to be the way many politicians are speaking now.

At least in Switzerland, I think seniors won't be locked in their homes or fined for going out. They will be advised not to go out to large gatherings or to just go wander the shops for fun. The choice will be yours/theirs. I do not think it rises to the level of civil disobedience if it's a recommendation vs a prohibition.

However, such a recommendation and complying to the letter could seriously impact the quality of life of seniors. We're all going to have to decide what we're willing and able to do to live with this virus, and live with whatever our governments decide.
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  #7566  
Old 16.04.2020, 21:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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.... I think the onus will be placed on the at risk people - and those that have contact with them - to prevent themselves from getting sick.
... and the responsibility to co-prevent others from getting sick.
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  #7567  
Old 16.04.2020, 21:56
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Re: Coronavirus

Good points. But this friend is talking about a very specific issue re the future- that over 65s, and only them- would be requested to stay in confinement, whilst the rest of society is not.
Eg those who are not economically active, and those who are not particularly more likely to pass on the virus to others.

He of course, as well as us- has been in total and respectful confinement for 3 weeks and will continue to do so. What he is talking about, is the above scenario- where one section of society would be the only one to have to continue- with the massive loneliness it implies for many like him, which is unbearable.
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  #7568  
Old 16.04.2020, 22:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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... and the responsibility to co-prevent others from getting sick.
I agree, but if you look at how most people behaved until very recently, it was very selfish and "I'm not going to change my life for this". A lot of youth didn't want to give up their parties. Couples at the border still wanted to hug and kiss across the fence. Families wanted to keep birthday parties, weddings, baptisms, funerals, etc. People are programmed to resist restrictions on their personal freedoms, and until it gets really serious the idea you're doing it for the greater good doesn't sink in.

I think part of the problem was that people didn't realize we could pass it on to others without experiencing any symptoms. We kept on keeping on. Now we know and can be more aware, but there will still be plenty of selfish people. Not only that but we can't all stay inside forever, regardless of age.

Quote:
Good points. But this friend is talking about a very specific issue re the future- that over 65s, and only them- would be requested to stay in confinement, whilst the rest of society is not.
Eg those who are not economically active, and those who are not particularly more likely to pass on the virus to others.
Yes, that seems like a real possibility for at least the summer. The only upside I can see, which isn't that much of one, is that it would be voluntary. In CH. Who knows about elsewhere.
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  #7569  
Old 16.04.2020, 22:13
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
His point is not about life or death - it is about 65+ being asked to stay in confinement for much much longer than the rest of the population.

I do wonder, do you actually read posts? He doesn't want to live in confinement, alone, without a garden, without the theatre, cinema or walks, without friends -- just for the sake of living. Confinement is fine for a few months- but if asked to do so for 1 year or more- he'd rather live and take the risk ...He is extremely positive generally, active, bright, social, hugely curious and intelligent- doesn't have a TV and is widowed.
There are millions in risk groups, many not because of age. There many reasons for risks
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Old 16.04.2020, 22:14
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Good points. But this friend is talking about a very specific issue re the future- that over 65s, and only them- would be requested to stay in confinement, whilst the rest of society is not.
Eg those who are not economically active, and those who are not particularly more likely to pass on the virus to others.

He of course, as well as us- has been in total and respectful confinement for 3 weeks and will continue to do so. What he is talking about, is the above scenario- where one section of society would be the only one to have to continue- with the massive loneliness it implies for many like him, which is unbearable.
Odile, I've also been thinking deeply about this possible scenario, too, and about what is bearable and unbearable.

The current restrictions are: Don't go out unless you have to, keep 2m distance, wash your hands, and don't gather. In fact, even with the partial lifting of the restrictions, those restrictions are still in place - for everyone.

Even without any specific extra restriction for old people, the criteria for "unless you have to" are, almost by definition, more restrictive for "those who are not economically active".

The foolish party-people 3Wishes mentions, aside, I'm trying to weigh up the factors, especially with regard to my responsibility towards others.

I've read conficting reports about whether or not people in the risk groups are "only"
  • more likely to become ill and die if infected,
or whether they are also
  • more likely to become infected at all.
If the latter, then it would be a fact that they are "more likely to pass on the virus to others". I think we don't yet know.
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  #7571  
Old 16.04.2020, 22:44
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Re: Coronavirus

Looks like a potential treatment, if the results continue to hold.

First paragraph

A Chicago hospital treating severe Covid-19 patients with Gilead Sciences’ antiviral medicine remdesivir in a closely watched clinical trial is seeing rapid recoveries in fever and respiratory symptoms, with nearly all patients discharged in less than a week, STAT has learned.

Link:

https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/16/...1e51-149554385
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  #7572  
Old 16.04.2020, 22:59
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Re: Coronavirus

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He of course, as well as us- has been in total and respectful confinement for 3 weeks and will continue to do so. What he is talking about, is the above scenario- where one section of society would be the only one to have to continue- with the massive loneliness it implies for many like him, which is unbearable.
Well, isn't this the "herd immunity, no-lockdowns" approach exactly (that V_ is advocating)? To isolate at-risk people for the foreseeable future and let the virus rip in the rest of the society?
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  #7573  
Old 16.04.2020, 23:21
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Re: Coronavirus

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Looks like a potential treatment, if the results continue to hold.

First paragraph

A Chicago hospital treating severe Covid-19 patients with Gilead Sciences’ antiviral medicine remdesivir in a closely watched clinical trial is seeing rapid recoveries in fever and respiratory symptoms, with nearly all patients discharged in less than a week, STAT has learned.

Link:

https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/16/...1e51-149554385
Curious how this article came out promptly on the next day after the news that 2 trials for this drug got canceled in China nad Gilead's shares dived:
https://www.fiercebiotech.com/biotec...l-halted-china
Also curious that this is run by Gilead itself and despite the big upbeat headline we read in the middle of the article that at the moment "it’s impossible to determine the full study results with any certainty" and "all the data are anecdotal until the full trial reads out, meaning that they should not be used to draw final conclusions." They say more or less definite data should be available later, after many more cases (thousands) are studied. But heck, why not, let's hope the drug will be proven effective.
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  #7574  
Old 16.04.2020, 23:30
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Good points. But this friend is talking about a very specific issue re the future- that over 65s, and only them- would be requested to stay in confinement, whilst the rest of society is not.
Why would you assume this is even an option under discussion? There's been zero indication whatsoever for this. No one over 65 has been forced to stay at home so far, why would they be forced to now?

Contrary to most countries and cultures, while there's generally speaking a deep desire to preserve personal freedoms, there's also an inherent assumption of self-responsibility coupled with compliance in Swiss culture (as much as people want to dispute this because they've seen three young folks hang out by the lake 10 days or so ago). This has clearly been illustrated time and time again not only in the last few weeks, but also a million times before that.

At most it will be suggested to 65+ to be considerate and show some caution within reason, but ultimately, in many ways, it will become about their own responsibility and those around them.

Most importantly, I second 3Wishes and V - going outside is not a freaking death sentence for anyone, including 65+. Not even getting the thing is a death sentence. The massive majority of deaths have been in people closer to or above 80 in age coupled with at least one pre-existing condition. Which simply means that the average healthy 65-year old will have really quite little to fear.
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  #7575  
Old 16.04.2020, 23:36
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Re: Coronavirus

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add Higher property costs, cleaning costs etc
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and higher salaries.....
As was already posted here this topic has been done to death.
Nevertheless, the factors quoted above have nothing to do with high prices!
My proof; just look at the low prices here for electronics like TVs, computers &&

The primary reason for high Swiss prices is the exorbitant charges made by the Swiss sole importers.
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  #7576  
Old 16.04.2020, 23:40
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Re: Coronavirus

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Why would you assume this is even an option under discussion? There's been zero indication whatsoever for this. No one over 65 has been forced to stay at home so far, why would they be forced to now?

Contrary to most countries and cultures, while there's generally speaking a deep desire to preserve personal freedoms, there's also an inherent assumption of self-responsibility coupled with compliance in Swiss culture (as much as people want to dispute this because they've seen three young folks hang out by the lake 10 days or so ago). This has clearly been illustrated time and time again not only in the last few weeks, but also a million times before that.

At most it will be suggested to 65+ to be considerate and show some caution within reason, but ultimately, in many ways, it will become about their own responsibility and those around them.

Most importantly, I second 3Wishes and V - going outside is not a freaking death sentence for anyone, including 65+. Not even getting the thing is a death sentence. The massive majority of deaths have been in people closer to or above 80 in age coupled with at least one pre-existing condition. Which simply means that the average healthy 65-year old will have really quite little to fear.
"No one over 65 has been forced to stay at home so far" In Tessin, they banned over 65s from shopping, I have friends who had to show their Ausweiss before they were allowed in Migros or Coop.
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Old 16.04.2020, 23:42
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Re: Coronavirus

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Why would you assume this is even an option under discussion? There's been zero indication whatsoever for this. No one over 65 has been forced to stay at home so far, why would they be forced to now?
To be fair to Odile, I have, indeed, heard exactly such a measure discussed, as one possible option, perhaps not as a prohibition, but that the Just Stay At Home would be lifted, in steps, for all others, but not for the over-65s.

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Contrary to most countries and cultures, while there's generally speaking a deep desire to preserve personal freedoms, there's also an inherent assumption of self-responsibility coupled with compliance in Swiss culture...

At most it will be suggested to 65+ to be considerate and show some caution within reason, but ultimately, in many ways, it will become about their own responsibility and those around them.
And this, as I see it, is the tricky part: to know how to balance one's own needs with the responsiblity towards others.

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Most importantly, I second 3Wishes and V - going outside is not a freaking death sentence for anyone, including 65+. Not even getting the thing is a death sentence. The massive majority of deaths have been in people closer to or above 80 in age coupled with at least one pre-existing condition. Which simply means that the average healthy 65-year old will have really quite little to fear.
I had not read Odile, nor her writing about her friend, as being afraid of dying. They're thinking about living... and how - and indeed, even whether! - to do so, given the restrictions.
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Old 16.04.2020, 23:55
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Re: Coronavirus

@doropfiz

I keep repeating myself but it is not only the over 65's at risk

Others;
  • Cancer survivors
  • Cardiovascular disease
  • Chronic respiratory diseases
  • Diabetes
  • High blood pressure
  • Transplant patients
  • Cerebrovascular disease,
  • Renal disease,
  • Liver disease
  • People who are immunocompromised
  • People with severe obesity
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Old 17.04.2020, 00:03
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Re: Coronavirus

Yes, absolutely, marton. I agree with you that this is often overlooked. And those in the risk groups and who are not over 65 are, in some sense, suffering in silence, in that many of them are less identifiable, from the outside, than the young-old and the old-old.

Yet they're having to weigh up the same things: how much to exert their personal freedoms vs. how much to restrict themselves for their own sakes and for those of others. And in some cases, they have people who are pressurising them to go out, when they'd be safer working (if they're well enough, in general, to work) from home.

Moreover, if they're in a risk group by some factor that is otherwise manageable, (e.g. diabetes that they've managed to get under control) they may be young, and have years ahead of them, which makes their dilemma perhaps more difficult than that of the person who, in any case through age, is naturally likely to die relatively sooner.

Last edited by doropfiz; 17.04.2020 at 00:16.
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Old 17.04.2020, 00:11
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Re: Coronavirus

Video shot by an ambulance driver near Moscow, when leaving the hospital after having waited in the queue for 9 hours to unload a patient:
https://youtu.be/d0VkYHcdIzo?t=22
It's not the only queue of ambulances, there are other such videos, in the city center as well
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