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  #7601  
Old 17.04.2020, 15:51
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Re: Coronavirus

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Yawn away - I wonder how you would feel if you were over 65, or in the case of my friend, a very active, busy, lively, fit 82 year old, and were instructed to stay at home for many more weeks or even months, than the rest of the population.

This friend has actually sent his next of kin his advanced directives in case he should become severely ill- no intubating, no excess of treatment over a long period, and to give his body to medical research. He is the least selfish person I know. He just thinks that at 82 he has not got 1 year to waste locked up inside his apartment not seeing his family, friends and without access to culture, nice shared meals. Fortunately he has the most beautiful apartment, with a balcony with views to die for, and woods with nice paths right behind him- so he does go out every day.
Plus one.

At the end of the day, provided the health authorities are not being overwhelmed we should all assess our own risk tolerance and act accordingly (obviously within certain limits). He's aware of the risks, it's his life. Completely logical. Why give up (say) 10% of your remaining life expectancy unless your chance of dying of the disease is 10% or more?

I think the other side of the coin is that if older people want this freedom they shouldn't expect young people to also not have the freedom to make their own rational decisions. They can't have it both ways.
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  #7602  
Old 17.04.2020, 16:21
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Re: Coronavirus

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"No one over 65 has been forced to stay at home so far" In Tessin, they banned over 65s from shopping, I have friends who had to show their Ausweiss before they were allowed in Migros or Coop.
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...Also, prohibiting all 65+ from going grocery-shopping was very likely an illegal thing to do. Federal regulations trump cantonal ones - Bern should have reacted.

I stand by it and there's no way there'll be a federal directive to forbid 65+ to leave the house.
AFAIK the feds overruled the cantons that were trying to enforce such strict measures and said the most the cantons could do was make strong recommendations.

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Video shot by an ambulance driver near Moscow, when leaving the hospital after having waited in the queue for 9 hours to unload a patient:
https://youtu.be/d0VkYHcdIzo?t=22
It's not the only queue of ambulances, there are other such videos, in the city center as well
Oh my, I do hope those are just parked ambulances with no one in them, waiting to go get people who need help. But I don't think that's the case.

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Meanwhile this is happening in other part of the world...in Guayaquil of Ecuador

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XgHmQ7d_M8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHsfjnRB-uA
Dreadful and heartbreaking for those people. I feel very fortunate to live in a rich country that has the resources to deal with something like this, and leaders who are trying to come up with a plan for reopening. Even when Ticino, Geneva and Vaud were at the worst point, we didn't see bodies in the streets, stuck in people's homes, or stacked on top of one another in hospital back rooms.

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the advice/instructions has been very clear - do not have close contact with anyone who is not in your household- so unless grandchildren live with you - then no visits to them or by them.
It's also clear that it's not mandatory here in Switzerland. You're not going to get arrested if you go see the grandkids at their home or if they come to you. Gatherings of more than 5 are technically prohibited but I can't see the cops coming into your house to arrest you because your own family is there. If you all went for a picnic in the park that might be a different story.

At worst, the grandparents might get sick but only they and their family can judge whether the risk outweighs the benefits. If it was me, I'd go see the grandkids if I knew we'd all been isolating for a month and were all still healthy. I'd only go there and come back to my home, no stops along the way. Family is critically important to our well-being. Maybe I'm crazy or reckless but after this much time, I'd go see the grandkids.
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  #7603  
Old 17.04.2020, 16:32
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Re: Coronavirus

In the 24 hours ending at 8 p.m. Eastern time Thursday, 4,591 US people were reported to have died from Covid-19, according to a Wall Street Journal analysis of data from Johns Hopkins University. The prior record was 2,569 on Wednesday.

Source

That is around half of the new deaths worldwide!

Despite this, many Republicans are in denial and demonstrating against restrictions.
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  #7604  
Old 17.04.2020, 16:41
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Re: Coronavirus

Well, we've having this debate here for some weeks. A damned good essay on why so much resources are devoted to keep some old people alive (irony alert!). No easy answers, just well-made questions. Can't believe how FT Alphaville is free https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2020/04/...in-lockdown--/

Pour a glass or two of the distillate of your choice, this text deserves it. Just a preview...

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  #7605  
Old 17.04.2020, 16:49
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Re: Coronavirus

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AFAIK the feds overruled the cantons that were trying to enforce such strict measures and said the most the cantons could do was make strong recommendations..
They did that in the case of Uri, but I didn't see them do it in the case of Ticino, though might have missed it.
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  #7606  
Old 17.04.2020, 16:49
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Re: Coronavirus

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It's also clear that it's not mandatory here in Switzerland. You're not going to get arrested if you go see the grandkids at their home or if they come to you. Gatherings of more than 5 are technically prohibited but I can't see the cops coming into your house to arrest you because your own family is there. If you all went for a picnic in the park that might be a different story.

At worst, the grandparents might get sick but only they and their family can judge whether the risk outweighs the benefits. If it was me, I'd go see the grandkids if I knew we'd all been isolating for a month and were all still healthy. I'd only go there and come back to my home, no stops along the way. Family is critically important to our well-being. Maybe I'm crazy or reckless but after this much time, I'd go see the grandkids.
Of course we are not talking about being arrested here. But the advice is very clear - if over 65 only have close contact with people of your own household. For me, no choice anyhow as my grandkids live in the UK. But the point is that it is not the grandparents choosing to go or not to visit the grandkids- but the adult children and grandkids who do not want to visit, or be visited by- grand-parents - because they would feel just too awful and guilty and responsible, if the grandparents got sick- and possibly died.
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  #7607  
Old 17.04.2020, 16:52
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Re: Coronavirus

Even if it is not the same, they can always come and keep a safe distance. My sister´s grandkid comes by regularly, stands outside waving and makes chalk pictures on the pavement for them.

No it is not the same but at least they get to see each other a bit.
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Old 17.04.2020, 17:10
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Re: Coronavirus

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Of course we are not talking about being arrested here. But the advice is very clear - if over 65 only have close contact with people of your own household. For me, no choice anyhow as my grandkids live in the UK. But the point is that it is not the grandparents choosing to go or not to visit the grandkids- but the adult children and grandkids who do not want to visit, or be visited by- grand-parents - because they would feel just too awful and guilty and responsible, if the grandparents got sick- and possibly died.
Earlier today I read something dealing precisely with this. The story of a guy who was sick enough to get connected to a ventilator. Meanwhile his father dies of covid19 and his 8 month pregnant wife falls sick (eventually recovers) . The dead, well.....they're just resting in peace. The issue is the living ones that will carry all this stuff for a long time: survivor's guilt. https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...ovid19/610039/
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  #7609  
Old 17.04.2020, 17:10
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Re: Coronavirus

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Even if it is not the same, they can always come and keep a safe distance. My sister´s grandkid comes by regularly, stands outside waving and makes chalk pictures on the pavement for them.

No it is not the same but at least they get to see each other a bit.
Yes, there are always ways to maintain contact even if it is from a safe distance.
My sister in law in the UK has been doing the same thing.
She looks out of her bedroom window and her grandson chats to her from the garden below, has a kick about with his dad etc.
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  #7610  
Old 17.04.2020, 17:23
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Re: Coronavirus

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In the 24 hours ending at 8 p.m. Eastern time Thursday, 4,591 US people were reported to have died from Covid-19, according to a Wall Street Journal analysis of data from Johns Hopkins University. The prior record was 2,569 on Wednesday.

Source

That is around half of the new deaths worldwide!

Despite this, many Republicans are in denial and demonstrating against restrictions.
Big numbers.
That's why Trump is forced to toe the line. People take note when its '000's dying a day.
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  #7611  
Old 17.04.2020, 17:47
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Re: Coronavirus

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That's not the same as being forced to stay home/being forced into curfew and confinment.

Also, prohibiting all 65+ from going grocery-shopping was very likely an illegal thing to do. Federal regulations trump cantonal ones - Bern should have reacted.

I stand by it and there's no way there'll be a federal directive to forbid 65+ to leave the house.
From Reuters 21 March...

The local government in Ticino, with so far 918 reported coronavirus cases and 28 deaths, ordered people aged 65 and over to stay home and only leave if they needed to visit the doctor or for work, Swiss radio SRF reported.
The government said that family members or specially organized municipal services should deliver food to older citizens while they are restricted to their homes, newspaper Corriere del Ticino said.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN2180MI

From BAG...

If you are over the age of 65 or have one of the following underlying medical conditions, you should stay at home.
https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home...-menschen.html
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  #7612  
Old 17.04.2020, 17:59
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Re: Coronavirus

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What's the point of doing something completely different if you're a small country in the middle of a continent?
Exactly. Imagine little Switzerland behaving differently to its big neighbours. That's why our VAT is around 20%, personal income tax rates max out around 45%, citizen-initiated referenda are but a fantasy and people can speed at their leisure on the motorways with no fear of repercussions, save a slap on the wrist.
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  #7613  
Old 17.04.2020, 18:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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From Reuters 21 March...

The local government in Ticino, with so far 918 reported coronavirus cases and 28 deaths, ordered people aged 65 and over to stay home and only leave if they needed to visit the doctor or for work, Swiss radio SRF reported.
The government said that family members or specially organized municipal services should deliver food to older citizens while they are restricted to their homes, newspaper Corriere del Ticino said.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN2180MI

From BAG...

If you are over the age of 65 or have one of the following underlying medical conditions, you should stay at home.

https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home...-menschen.html
Once again and as already said, a) federal trumps cantonal and b) should is not the same as ordered, forced or coerced. We SHOULD all stay home as much as possible. Uri was pulled back immediately when they tried to forbid 65+ to leave the house, so whatever the reason they didn't intervene in Ticino, it was still not ok, likely not even legal. Granted, they didn't even say it's forbidden to leave the house per se; but since there are no grounds whatsoever to fine or otherwise punish anyone, and because, further, one can hardly distinguish whether someone is on a general walk or on a walk to the grocery store, it's an essentially pointless attempt to give orders. Therefore, also as already said, Switzerland depends much more on compliance and personal accountability instead of coercion. For the most part, that seems to work.
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  #7614  
Old 17.04.2020, 18:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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@doropfiz

I keep repeating myself but it is not only the over 65's at risk

Others;
  • Cancer survivors
  • Cardiovascular disease
  • Chronic respiratory diseases
  • Diabetes
  • High blood pressure
  • Transplant patients
  • Cerebrovascular disease,
  • Renal disease,
  • Liver disease
  • People who are immunocompromised
  • People with severe obesity
I've got a medical condition linked to an overactive immune system. Its caused me a lot of discomfort at times over the years, but I'm hoping its protective in these situations! There's been some studies showing a lower risk of certain types of cancer for people with my condition.
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Old 17.04.2020, 18:13
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Well, isn't this the "herd immunity, no-lockdowns" approach exactly (that V_ is advocating)? To isolate at-risk people for the foreseeable future and let the virus rip in the rest of the society?
For herd immunity to kick in, something like 90% of the population has to have it, recover and generate antibodies. That's a lot of potential deaths. But I guess it's the "potential " that is making folk keen to break lockdown.
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  #7616  
Old 17.04.2020, 18:26
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Re: Coronavirus

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The only folk on this thread who ever thought that were you, TC, Jorido abd a few others. Urs Max was most definitely not one of them. Lockdown etc has only ever been about minimising.

The overloading of hospitals hasn't happened in some places purely because of these measures. So yes, you are either still trolling or are exceptionally hard of thinking on this topic.
I understand fully that the stated goal is to avoid overcrowding the hospitals, and agree with as much action as is necessary to not overload the hospitals.

Its just inconsistent with the fact we are still locked down in Basel when we are getting 5-10 new cases a day (and presumably most of them don't need ICU).
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Old 17.04.2020, 18:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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I understand that is the stated goal. With this in mind, can you tell me why we are still locked down in Basel when we are getting 5-10 new cases a day.
Probably because the federal government has taken charge in this situation, so the cantons aren't allowed to make many decisions on their own.
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Old 17.04.2020, 18:37
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Re: Coronavirus

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Once again and as already said, a) federal trumps cantonal and b) should is not the same as ordered, forced or coerced. We SHOULD all stay home as much as possible. Uri was pulled back immediately when they tried to forbid 65+ to leave the house, so whatever the reason they didn't intervene in Ticino, it was still not ok, likely not even legal.
On 28 Feb, the council were very specific in their televised press conference that the powers they were taking were setting the minimum requirements for all cantons. Chur immediately limited gatherings to 50 people and nothing was said.

Some Swiss regions have banned even small gatherings. The town of Chur in the eastern canton of Graubünden has banned gatherings of 50 or more people, with a few exceptions such as restaurants, funerals, political meetings, art galleries and other public places, according to RTS. https://lenews.ch/2020/03/02/some-de...ring-in-basel/
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Old 17.04.2020, 18:37
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I understand fully that the stated goal is to avoid overcrowding the hospitals, and agree with as much action as is necessary to not overload the hospitals.

Its just inconsistent with the fact we are still locked down in Basel when we are getting 5-10 new cases a day (and presumably most of them don't need ICU).
It's not inconsistent... it's consistent for the whole country.
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Old 17.04.2020, 18:41
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Probably because the federal government has taken charge in this situation, so the cantons aren't allowed to make many decisions on their own.
Well I guess but this is not atypical of other kantons. The number of new cases is way less than capacity nationwide, and given diagnosis is a lagging measure it is only going to be lower in a week or so's time. Yet we still extended the opening date. The action just doesn't match the stated goal, at least for me. At least it was only for a week.
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