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Old 28.04.2020, 12:30
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Re: Coronavirus

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It is possible to take coronavirus seriously, worry about the economy and also be concerned about the expansion of government control at the same time. These positions aren't exclusive. I think it's a sad reflection of the partisan times in which we live that topics are not able to be discussed with the accusation of "Troll!" being hurled at people who don't share a particular view point.

I took Coronavirus seriously from the outset, and would have supported a stringent short lockdown, travel ban and border closures in order to prevent its spread. However most reacted too late, and when it became clear to me that the damage being done by the lockdown outweighed the benefits I moved to a position of easing it whilst maintaining measures to slow the spread of the virus (use of masks, social distancing, continuation of lockdown for the vulnerable).

People have to remember that there is no correct answer to this, the science isn't agreed upon and everyone is just flying by the seat of their pants!
My position has shifted as well over time. When China put such strict lockdowns in place, I thought okay, it's China. That type of thing won't happen here in Shengen Europe. What a naiive view that was!

Okay, in CH we can actually leave our houses without a certificate/app or cameras watching our doors, but there's not much open, we're still supposed to avoid groups of 5 people or more, and we can't realistically travel for leisure. So we're still mostly stuck.
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  #8442  
Old 28.04.2020, 12:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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They have some nice graphics of numbers of tests within Kantons but I have never seen any actual numbers. Has anybody found a way into the database behind the graphics?
There's a link to an Excel file named Daten des Situationberichtes on this site

https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/de/home...rnational.html
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Old 28.04.2020, 12:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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So now its suddenly useful? Berset is a joke
I don't think he is and maybe more people than just me may not appreciate the constant put downs of people who did as well as they possibly could at that given moment in their best faith. It wasn't about him but the expected reaction of majority of the population. You tell people that they need masks and they de-thrown you for not having masks available before realizing nobody had them, no other governments. I still think that the masks are useful and people should have been informed. Alas, maybe slow controlled spread of the infection is the desired outcome as opposed to no spread of infection (which is impossible).
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Old 28.04.2020, 13:02
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Re: Coronavirus

Austria accounce hotels can opn from May 29th.
Also:
Starting May 15, restaurants, cafes, and bars can sit up to four grown-ups plus children together at a table. The one-meter rule must be upheld between separate groups of guests but not within the group itself. Waiters must wear face masks, the customers do not.
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  #8445  
Old 28.04.2020, 13:08
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Re: Coronavirus

First statistical analysis of death rates in Italy available.

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We estimate that the number of COVID-19 deaths in Italy is 52,000 ± 2000 as of April 18 2020, more than a factor of 2 higher than the official number.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....15.20067074v2

Was not expecting Italy to be undercounted by that much. Now I really wonder what the figures in UK, USA, Spain will be....
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  #8446  
Old 28.04.2020, 13:10
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Re: Coronavirus

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It is possible to take coronavirus seriously, worry about the economy and also be concerned about the expansion of government control at the same time. These positions aren't exclusive. I think it's a sad reflection of the partisan times in which we live that topics are not able to be discussed with the accusation of "Troll!" being hurled at people who don't share a particular view point.
Well, some are, let's not make any mistake about it.....

And those who aren't and are trying very hard to impose their views, perhaps should place these accusations on their communication style and not on how their message is received. (again, assuming their participation is genuine and they want to exchange ideas or at least understand how other people think)
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Old 28.04.2020, 13:11
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Re: Coronavirus

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Austria accounce hotels can opn from May 29th.
Also:
Starting May 15, restaurants, cafes, and bars can sit up to four grown-ups plus children together at a table. The one-meter rule must be upheld between separate groups of guests but not within the group itself. Waiters must wear face masks, the customers do not.
Who's for a roadtrip for a few beers? We'll need a designated driver as we can't stay the night.

Can you get across the border though?
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Old 28.04.2020, 13:13
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Re: Coronavirus

I doubt it.

I just want a schnitzel and strudel. Mask or not.
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Old 28.04.2020, 13:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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It is possible to take coronavirus seriously, worry about the economy and also be concerned about the expansion of government control at the same time. These positions aren't exclusive. I think it's a sad reflection of the partisan times in which we live that topics are not able to be discussed with the accusation of "Troll!" being hurled at people who don't share a particular view point.
Thanks.

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People have to remember that there is no correct answer to this, the science isn't agreed upon and everyone is just flying by the seat of their pants!
And this too.

RufusB, I will respond to your comment, but probably for the last time.

As I keep being asked why I am "against lockdowns" (which I never said btw), I have explained why I'm highly critical (not the same as "against") several times. In either direction, a million fundamental decisions have been made without any data. I don't need to prove that lockdowns don't work - someone needs to prove that they do. If you take away a massive amount of civil liberties, ruin the economy and risk political disaster, then yes, I want proof that that's worth it. I have not seen that proof, nor do I expect to see it, now or very likely even ever. And before some people jump to the conclusion that "oh but they do because infections went down" - there's no obvious correlation at this stage, let alone a causality. Is it a contributing factor? Possibly. The only one? Absolutely not.

It's a matter of proportionality for me and always has been. Did I see the need to isolate certain particularly bad clusters as was the case in Wuhan (because no, China did not shut down entirely)? Sure. Could I have understood to shut down the Lombardy or Madrid or even NYC for a while when things got a bit out of control and the strain on healthcare systems became too much? Yes, I probably would have. Do I understand isolating certain risk groups such as old-age homes for a while? Yes, sure. Do I understand cancelling large events? Certainly. Could I even get on board with setting certain limits on restaurants and bars? Yes, I could.

But do I understand blind panicked reactions that throw every country by default into more or less complete lockdown? Nonsensical things like not being able to buy a book vs being totally able to buy groceries or not being able to buy flowers or socks when they’re literally next to the laundry detergent, which I am allowed to buy? Even more nonsensical things like being able to grab a sandwich, but not a coffee? No, I do not understand, nor will I ever. No, this is not about me being able to buy things, but the fact that certain livelihoods were ruined in the process for no apparent reason. Yes, I will continue to believe that this was over-the-top, went too far and that the subsequent damage will be so much worse. Maybe for two weeks it was ok. For 6, 8, 10, 12? Nope.

And why shut borders if the virus is everywhere anyway? No logical reason at this point. Also, to believe this was predominantly about health when it was a hugely political matter from the get-go is really naive.

I will not bother to throw a thousand different articles and links at people anymore. I also don't care if people think I'm wrong, this is my opinion and I'm entitled to one - just like others are to theirs. I'm not imposing anything on anyone. We're still free (for now) to voice our viewpoints and by all means, it's more necessary than ever. If at some point I turn out to be absolutely wrong, I shall certainly stand corrected. I was respectful and a good citizen and did what I was told. I stayed home, I isolated, and I didn't meet a goddamn soul for the first 5 weeks. Doesn't mean I thought this was appropriate, nor do I have to.

Last edited by Samaire13; 28.04.2020 at 13:29. Reason: Small addition
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  #8450  
Old 28.04.2020, 13:31
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Re: Coronavirus

Thanks Samaire.

In the UK we have seen evidence that the lockdown is having a positive effect so I'm still confused about that standpoint but I agree that the seemingly random embargo on some items is strange. I suppose I didn't think of that as I live in place with excellent delivery services for pretty much anything a person could want.

I guess we are looking at it from very different perspectives.
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Old 28.04.2020, 13:44
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Re: Coronavirus

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Who's for a roadtrip for a few beers? We'll need a designated driver as we can't stay the night.

Can you get across the border though?

Looks like May 7th
Current Temporarily Reintroduced Border Controls
Temporarily reintroduced border controls in the context of cases requiring immediate action:
  • Austria (11 March – 7 May 2020)
    Coronavirus COVID-19; land borders with Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Slovakia and Czech Republic;
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Old 28.04.2020, 14:17
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Re: Coronavirus

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We're still free (for now) to voice our viewpoints and by all means, it's more necessary than ever. If at some point I turn out to be absolutely wrong, I shall certainly stand corrected. I was respectful and a good citizen and did what I was told. I stayed home, I isolated, and I didn't meet a goddamn soul for the first 5 weeks. Doesn't mean I thought this was appropriate, nor do I have to.
Glad we've got that straight because you're the first one to go off on a rant if anyone says anything that you don't agree with.

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And why shut borders if the virus is everywhere anyway? No logical reason at this point. Also, to believe this was predominantly about health when it was a hugely political matter from the get-go is really naive.
I think you're pretty naive to believe that.

As for your moan about being able to buy soap but not flowers, if you are going to have any sort of a lock-down (which I know you don't agree with), you've got to draw a line somewhere so those people further down the supply chain don't have to work in what could be close proximity to other people.

Not sure about your coffee rant - I've bought coffees at takeaway counters during the lock-down.
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Old 28.04.2020, 14:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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Germany infection rate rises to 1.0 as people told to stay home as much as possible
The head of Germany’s Robert Koch Institute for infectious diseases has called on Germans to stay at home as much as possible after new figures showed the coronavirus infection rate had increased.

Lothar Wieler, president of the Robert Koch Institute, said the virus reproduction rate, dubbed ‘R’, is now at 1.0 in Germany, which means one person with the virus infects one other on average. Earlier this month, the rate was at 0.7.
(Guardian ticker...I guess you can find links to it)

Don't think for one moment lifting some lockdown provisions is the end of it. Distancing is going to be needed for ages yet and if people don't observe it there will be further lockdowns.
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Old 28.04.2020, 14:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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(Guardian ticker...I guess you can find links to it)

Don't think for one moment lifting some lockdown provisions is the end of it. Distancing is going to be needed for ages yet and if people don't observe it there will be further lockdowns.
This is the main reason why I think the lockdown needs to end. It's not a solution. There is no vaccine, there is no cure so we have to accept that this virus is now a fact of life. As harsh as this sounds, that includes accepting the appalling number of people that are dying and remembering that those under 60 have a 99%+ likelihood of surviving this virus.
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Old 28.04.2020, 14:38
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Re: Coronavirus

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Nonsensical things like not being able to buy a book...
You could buy books online and have them delivered. If buying them online doesn't appeal to you, why the shop experience appeals to you more? I keep hearing "I miss browsing for a book in a real shop". It's the physical act of browsing, touching items that you might not be taking away with you, that they were trying to eliminate. Can you even begin to imagine having to disinfect an entire book shop?!!

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... vs being totally able to buy groceries or not being able to buy flowers or socks when they’re literally next to the laundry detergent, which I am allowed to buy?
I found that peculiar too until I remembered that I usually have to rifle through a number of items on the rail before I find my size. Again, it's the touching items that you're not taking away with you.
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Old 28.04.2020, 14:41
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is the main reason why I think the lockdown needs to end. It's not a solution. There is no vaccine, there is no cure so we have to accept that this virus is now a fact of life. As harsh as this sounds, that includes accepting the appalling number of people that are dying and remembering that those under 60 have a 99%+ likelihood of surviving this virus.
I appreciate that this is just one of many points of view but, if you were totally honest here and were in intensive care in hospital breathing your last breaths because of COVID-19 running rampant, would you just say to yourself "Oh, well, shit-happens" or would you think that more should have been done to protect people.

I guess what I am asking myself is whether your actions would be more powerful than your words here on this forum, and whether really you're just a cowardly keyboard warrior?
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Old 28.04.2020, 14:42
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Re: Coronavirus

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You could buy books online and have them delivered. If buying them online doesn't appeal to you, why the shop experience appeals to you more? I keep hearing "I miss browsing for a book in a real shop". It's the physical act of browsing, touching items that you might not be taking away with you, that they were trying to eliminate. Can you even begin to imagine having to disinfect an entire book shop?!!

I found that peculiar too until I remembered that I usually have to rifle through a number of items on the rail before I find my size. Again, it's the touching items that you're not taking away with you.
I've a friend who was complaining about not being able to find a ripe mango or avocado having touched every piece of produce there. They had a "oh" moment after they realised what they were doing. I doubt they were the only one.
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Old 28.04.2020, 15:08
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Re: Coronavirus

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You could buy books online and have them delivered. If buying them online doesn't appeal to you, why the shop experience appeals to you more? I keep hearing "I miss browsing for a book in a real shop". It's the physical act of browsing, touching items that you might not be taking away with you, that they were trying to eliminate. Can you even begin to imagine having to disinfect an entire book shop?!!
Yeah. That was really not the point.

But that's ok - you read what you want to read.

As for disinfecting: not necessary and if there was, then there's no difference between disinfecting a whole bookstore or a whole grocery store.
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Old 28.04.2020, 15:26
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Re: Coronavirus

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(Guardian ticker...I guess you can find links to it)

Don't think for one moment lifting some lockdown provisions is the end of it. Distancing is going to be needed for ages yet and if people don't observe it there will be further lockdowns.
Some of the US models predicted 60K dead by August. Overnight, the models were updated and the number stands at 73K, I think, due in part to some states loosening up their lockdown. I think this was the U of Washington model, specifically.

They're talking about opening cinema, and allowing 25% capacity. How this is operationalised is going to be interesting.... and consider that you're sitting there for 2+hours. I forget which state - maybe Georgia?
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Old 28.04.2020, 15:29
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Re: Coronavirus

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As for disinfecting: not necessary and if there was, then there's no difference between disinfecting a whole bookstore or a whole grocery store.
Have you tried disinfecting books?
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