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Old 28.04.2020, 19:49
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Re: Coronavirus

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And if you are in a situation where ending the lockdown would prevent you from social distancing etc? How would you feel then?
I am not talking about going back to life as normal, just reopening the country whilst taking precautions. Use of masks, social distancing, vulnerable continuing to self isolate, avoiding public transport, those that can work from home should continue to do so, avoiding large gatherings etc. A lot of this will happen eventually anyway, but it should have started already. Of course it will never be possible to protect everyone all of the time, but this is where personal responsibility comes into play.
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  #8482  
Old 28.04.2020, 19:56
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Re: Coronavirus

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I would be annoyed by having to wear a mask. But seriously, this lockdown or social distancing cannot go forever. I am not saying it has to end today because the curves blah blah, I am saying this cannot go forever. So we need to find other ways to go about it.
I'm personally skeptical about their efficacy. I'm not paying for them for low risk use but will wear one if provided to me and I am requested to do so cause i don't really see the harm.

Last edited by jorido; 28.04.2020 at 21:35.
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  #8483  
Old 28.04.2020, 20:14
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Re: Coronavirus

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Yet today Koch from the BAG said that children can visit grandparents and even hug them, that there is no risk. They should not stay overnight though.
I'm surprised too. He's been a hero throughout this crisis, no doubt. The man should have been retired these days, he chose to stay put till the end (...) of the crisis. I suppose he's also a grandpa. I hope he's not sending confusing messages though.

Perhaps the fact that we'll have to still maintain social distancing should be made more clear, don't know.
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  #8484  
Old 28.04.2020, 20:39
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Re: Coronavirus

Apparently there's been an uptick in COVID cases in La Cote over last 2 days - according to healthcare workers
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  #8485  
Old 28.04.2020, 20:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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I am not talking about going back to life as normal, just reopening the country whilst taking precautions. Use of masks, social distancing, vulnerable continuing to self isolate, avoiding public transport, those that can work from home should continue to do so, avoiding large gatherings etc. A lot of this will happen eventually anyway, but it should have started already. Of course it will never be possible to protect everyone all of the time, but this is where personal responsibility comes into play.
But that's my point. If you are in a profession that doesn't, reasonably, let you work from home long term or effectively social distance, it's outside the realm of personal responsibility. It's ok for the folk wanting to end lockdown if they can can take this "personal responsibility " and essentially do as they wish. Where does it leave others? Those millions who cannot do their jobs and maintain social distance.
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Old 28.04.2020, 20:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm personally skeptical about their efficacy. I'm not paying for them but will wear one if provided to me and I am requested to do so cause i don't really see the harm.
Then maybe look at the science behind their use. They are a minimising aid.
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Old 28.04.2020, 20:55
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Re: Coronavirus

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Then maybe look at the science behind their use. They are a minimising aid.
I have done. The quality of the data isn't great and what little there is isn't supportive of significant enough protection for me to go into a risky situation wearing one.

Personally I'd rather take avoidance action rather than use them. Without better evidence of their efficacy I think that's responsible.

I'm not trying to say they are useless. I mean it's logical it would at least reduce viral load if nothing else.

Sure if I worked in migros I'd be wearing one. I'm lucky to avoidance as an option. Outside I'm not worried enough to spend my cash.

Last edited by jorido; 28.04.2020 at 21:09.
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Old 28.04.2020, 21:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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I have done. The quality of the data isn't great and what little there is isn't supportive of significant protection.

Personally I'd rather take avoidance action rather than use them. Without evidence of their efficacy I think that's responsible.

Again, what if you are someone who cannot avoid? It would then be the responsible thing to help minimise potential infection for those people as well as yourself.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...=1588100448832
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Old 28.04.2020, 21:10
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Re: Coronavirus

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Again, what if you are someone who cannot avoid? It would then be the responsible thing to help minimise potential infection for those people as well as yourself...
I agree. Once we start back to working in the office (which rumors say is soon) I have to commute via public transport. Do I like wearing a mask? No. Do I think it's going to save the world? No. But if it's recommended or even mandated for public transport I'll wear one. I don't want people to freak out over my allergy sneezes, and it could help me a little if someone near me is sick. It might make nervous people a little less nervous. It's a little bit of common courtesy right now, isn't it?
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Old 28.04.2020, 21:11
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm not trying to say they are useless. I mean it's logical it would at least reduce viral load if nothing else.

Sure if I worked in migros I'd be wearing one. I'm lucky to avoidance as an option. Outside I'm not worried enough to spend my cash.
Viral load? I'm pretty much scientifically illiterate.
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Old 28.04.2020, 21:29
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Re: Coronavirus

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Viral load? I'm pretty much scientifically illiterate.
As I understand it:

Imagine throwing loads of tennis balls against a mesh having holes several times bigger than the tennis ball.

That's what it's like wearing a mask against this virus - some particles will bounce back but others are still going to get through - so you'll still get a dose but it'll be lower.

One virus particle alone is unlikely to infect you. You'll need to breathe in a lot. So it offers some protection against infection but it's not a guarantee. Further, being exposed to a bigger dose of particles can as I understand increase the severity of the disease.

So masks are in my (possibly simplistic) understanding protective to a degree but unless the filter size is smaller than the particle size protection is inherently limited.

My rather conservative view is that I won't use them to enter a situation I otherwise wouldn't as there isn't good evidence showing the efficacy is very high (I'm sure it's not 0). That's not dismissing their usefulness per se.

If I deem a situation safe I'll wear one if asked. If I deem a situation unsafe I'll avoid rather than mitigate. If I can't avoid then I'll wear a mask. I have loads of n95s bought in January for a fraction of the price they are now that I'm saving for commuting later in the year if I'm no longer allowed to wfh.

I'm quite risk averse with dangerous materials - I've seen numerous people being exposed to organic chemicals getting leukaemia despite wearing pph.
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Old 28.04.2020, 21:42
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Re: Coronavirus

Cheers. Is it me or have you conflated two terms? I've just bugged a Friend Who Knows. In the meantime I found a New Scientist article:

"The viral load is a measure of how bright the fire is burning in an individual, whereas the infectious dose is the spark that gets that fire going." Dr Edward Parker, London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.

https://www.newscientist.com/article...ovid-19-worse/
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Old 28.04.2020, 21:45
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Re: Coronavirus

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Cheers. Is it me or have you conflated two terms? I've just bugged a Friend Who Knows. In the meantime I found a New Scientist article:

"The viral load is a measure of how bright the fire is burning in an individual, whereas the infectious dose is the spark that gets that fire going." Dr Edward Parker, London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.

https://www.newscientist.com/article...ovid-19-worse/
Yes - but they are correlated - those with a higher infectious dose are more likely to end up with a higher viral load
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Old 28.04.2020, 21:47
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Re: Coronavirus

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Yes - but they are correlated - those with a higher infectious dose are more likely to end up with a higher viral load
I get that but out and about it's surely the infectious dose that the mask helps with?
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Old 28.04.2020, 21:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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I get that but out and about it's surely the infectious dose that the mask helps with?
Yup!
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Old 28.04.2020, 22:41
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Re: Coronavirus

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Yup!
I'm confused.

Anyone with a Science background who can help a lit person out? Viral 101 needed here.
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Old 28.04.2020, 22:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm confused.

Anyone with a Science background who can help a lit person out? Viral 101 needed here.
Weird example but I hope you get it.

Imagine I throw a bucket of paint in your face you'll be covered with it. Now imagine holding a hand in front of your face, it be less paint on your face but still you're covered in it. Now have a basic roster (cheapest masks) in front of your face, it be even less but still some will come through. Now have a proper roster (FFP2 or FFP3 masks) in front of your face, you'll still get it on your clothes and in your hair but your face itself will stay clean. Meaning that if you touch your hair, or your cloths or you take the roster of while touching it and then you touch your face you still get paint on your face.

Now we put the proper roster over the bucket of paint and make a throwing movement, you'll get no paint on you.

And that is why proper masks help you to be protect yourself against others but they are no guarantee and they serve the most use in protecting others against you.
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Old 29.04.2020, 00:14
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm confused.

Anyone with a Science background who can help a lit person out? Viral 101 needed here.

https://medium.com/@Cancerwarrior/co...e-280e08ceee71



Another explanation for the use of masks. If you don't have time, you can skip to Figure 5. It shows the efficiency of different masks to block airborne particles (similar to sneeze droplets) produced by the wearer or from the surrounding people. Interestingly homemade masks can protect you from others, not others from you, just as good as surgical ones.
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Old 29.04.2020, 03:00
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Re: Coronavirus

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As I understand it:

Imagine throwing loads of tennis balls against a mesh having holes several times bigger than the tennis ball.

That's what it's like wearing a mask against this virus - some particles will bounce back but others are still going to get through - so you'll still get a dose but it'll be lower.
...
So masks are in my (possibly simplistic) understanding protective to a degree but unless the filter size is smaller than the particle size protection is inherently limited.
I watched a lecture (but regrettably can't find it now) about the sizes of various "tennis balls" (and other baddies) and how successfully they may penetrate any particular mesh.

You say correctly, that even when the holes in the mesh are bigger than the tennis balls, at least some of the balls will be stopped by the mesh. Now add another layer of a mesh of the same permeability, but rotated by 45 degrees, and another rotated by 60 or 90 degrees. Each layer at a different angle - even of mesh around holes that are larger than the tennis ball - reduces the likelihood of any one tennis ball successfully sliding through between the mesh structure.

Specifically with regard to the corona virus: it's size is, to carry this illustration further, only as big as, say, a ping-pong ball. If you hurl a load of ping-pong balls at the bigger-than-tennis-balls mesh, more of those ping-pong balls are going to succeed in sliding through. The somewhat good news is that these particular ping-pong balls don't tend, mostly, to fly through the air all by themselves, but are suspended in a droplet, which can be thought of as also about the size of a tennis-ball.

When that tennis-ball sized droplet smashes against the outer layer of the mesh, it bursts. A portion of its liquid splashes backwards, away and off mesh (good riddance), another portion sticks to the first layer of the mesh, (whew, protected) and the rest goes through the hole and continues its forward rush. As this remainder hits the outside of the second layer, it may bounce back. A part of it will exit out of a hole in the outermost layer (good riddance, again). Another part will hit and stick to the inside of the first layer. Oh, dear, that part's now trapped in the substance of the mask. The remaining portion travelling forward is similarly dispersed, and some of it bounces off the outside of the third layer, and, remarkably, exits completely (good riddance, yet again) while some gets stuck on the inside of any one of the layers.


Another factor is the way that the tennis balls and ping-pong balls fly. They don't tend to rush forward in a straight line or arch, but they spin or zig-zag, which increases the chances that they will collide with the mesh, reducing their likelihood of penetrating all the way through the layers.

The ping-pong balls could be in the first portion, and bounce off the ouside, could be in the second portion and adhere to the outside of the mesh, or in the third, advancing remainder of the droplet. And this for each layer of mesh. Of those that do reach the face, some will land on the cheeks or the outside of the nose, or on the lips. And the reduced remainder of the remainder will be breathed in through the nose or mouth, and some of that may contain "ping-pong balls" (the virus).

The same principle applies in the other direction, for air exhaled.

The gooey sludge that sticks to the inside or outside of the layers of mesh may also contain ping-pong balls. That's why it is so important to avoid fiddling with the mask. And once it starts to get noticeable moist, to doff it and that very carefully, so as not to re-release any of those ping-pong balls back into the air, nor to collect any on the fingers. Dispose of it without further touch. Go directly to the bin, do not collect $200, do not wave the mask about in the air (no throwing, no dropping from a dizzy height).

Then wash your hands properly, to cleanse from any bits you might have picked up while doffing the mask.
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Old 29.04.2020, 06:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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Yes - but they are correlated - those with a higher infectious dose are more likely to end up with a higher viral load
You don't understand properly.
The infectious dose is the dose required to infect an individual. This will vary hugely from person to person and is probably the reason for the immediate differences in the age susceptibility with Cov-19.
The viral load normally refers to how much virus your body is exposed to or how much body is circulating in your body.
For those for whom the infectious dose is higher; their viral load (circulating virus) is likely to be lower given a certain amount of exposure.
With regard to the masks: They vary in their pore sizes and how tightly they are bound to the face -the catch is that the tighter they bind, the more uncomfortable they are to wear and the pores clog up with moisture faster.
The virus is transmitted in water droplets. My home made mask is made from a vacuum cleaner bag which is one of those relatively fine pore ones designed to minimise allergies and this should stop all but the smallest water droplets. Four masks from one bag.
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