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  #9521  
Old 14.05.2020, 19:39
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Re: Coronavirus

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shouldn't we be ensuring this group of people are getting deliveries.

Great . I will prepare my shopping list for you. I will expect it to be delivered exactly at 9am every day.! Dont expect any tip!
If I was in Zürich I'd happily do it for you! Even at 9 . As it is I'm in Basel without a car.
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  #9522  
Old 14.05.2020, 19:49
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Re: Coronavirus

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Same as here, alternate days in school, it's not rocket science.

It's also clear what the Teachers Unions are doing, they've sniffed the chance to throw the economy (further) into turmoil by refusing to return to work over spurious "safety" claims. They know that if they don't go back to work then millions of parents won't either as they'll be stuck at home caring for their kids. Yet I bet they'll all be stood there at 8pm tonight clapping doctors and nurses (police, postal workers, shelf stackers, warehouse workers...) who have no choice but to go to an "unsafe" workplace. It's a UK thing.
The UK thing about this is assuming that the teacher's union have some kind of ulterior motive.
What is a positive UK thing is NHS staff turning up for work given the conditions. I cannot imagine Swiss staff even thinking seriously about working, let alone actually travelling to work.
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  #9523  
Old 14.05.2020, 19:58
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Re: Coronavirus

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The UK thing about this is assuming that the teacher's union have some kind of ulterior motive.
What is a positive UK thing is NHS staff turning up for work given the conditions. I cannot imagine Swiss staff even thinking seriously about working, let alone actually travelling to work.


But they did....when the number of infections was growing exponentially and nobody knew anything...almost.

And the teachers go to work now (well, some of them) even if most feel like they're part of an experiment and they're the lab rats.
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  #9524  
Old 14.05.2020, 20:21
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Re: Coronavirus

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I cannot imagine Swiss staff even thinking seriously about working, let alone actually travelling to work.
What percentage staid home who should have worked?
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  #9525  
Old 14.05.2020, 20:25
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Re: Coronavirus

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If somebody points at a truck and says "that's a nice bike" nobody feels the need to come up with counterarguments, we just silently think "what a dumbass"
I sure wasn't expecting an intelligent reply from you, not sure you're even capable of such.

Not that you who should have felt spoken to in the first place, it's not all about you.
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  #9526  
Old 14.05.2020, 20:45
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Re: Coronavirus

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I wonder if we should be doing more to ensure that old people can stay at home (that is to say not enter indoor public spaces - I don't think its humane to keep old folk locked inside their houses).

At some point, we have to start having different standards of lockdown for different groups of people. I really believe its possible to do this in a way that allows older people to live a comparatively normal life.
That addresses neither the "how" nor the main aspects it would entail. That's the intellectual level Trump communicates on, reality and practicality are none of his concerns.

Again, it's about one third of the population or more. But even if it was "just" about the 18% who are 70yrs or older it would still be impossible.

It's not just about the groceries, that would probably be relatively simple. Some have just been released from hospital, the broken hip or replaced knee still healing so they need help on many fronts. Very many others need ongoing in-apartment help, be that for cleaning, cooking, personal hygiene, and whatnot.

Plus, taking away the social contacts those helpers provide is likely to have many simply wither away. Others will increase the demand for care home places as they (need to) move there early, places of which we have too few already.
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  #9527  
Old 14.05.2020, 20:49
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Re: Coronavirus

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I sure wasn't expecting an intelligent reply from you, not sure you're even capable of such.

Not that you who should have felt spoken to in the first place, it's not all about you.
My excuses that your incredible dumb and utterly ignorant statement where you said that everybody who lost their job and is unemployed currently only have themselves to blame did not get any serious counterarguments in your opinion.

And instead of realising that you lost touch with reality you just spit more dumbness.

Keep going I'd say Friday is only a few hours away.
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  #9528  
Old 14.05.2020, 21:01
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Re: Coronavirus

Miauw.
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  #9529  
Old 14.05.2020, 21:06
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Re: Coronavirus

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everybody who lost their job and is unemployed currently only have themselves to blame did not get any serious counterarguments in your opinion.
Huh?

That's obviously true each and every time that happens. It's an outright truism, no exceptions.
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  #9530  
Old 14.05.2020, 21:46
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Re: Coronavirus

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Death rate to nearest thousandth of a percentile:

10-19: 0.0%
20-29: 0.1%

....

70-79: 25.1%
80-89: 30.4%

Source:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...e-group-italy/

That's more than a "better chance", it's chalk and cheese. It's a relatively minor illness in the healthy young (bearing in mind that 0.1% is likely to include significant numbers with significant pre existing conditions) and a significant killer in the elderly.

Covid is certainly less dangerous to the young than regular flu is to the old (0.83% death rate for 65+) - source http://www.businessinsider.com/coron...s-2020-3%3Famp.

Meanwhile it's those in their 20s who are disproportionately losing their jobs, source https://lenews.ch/2020/05/07/unemplo...n-switzerland/, and their futures to bale out the boomers.

Is there not a case that the 70 pluses should be the ones paying for their own protection? If I was in my 20s and healthy and I had been made redundant I'd be pretty angry right now.

PS - you've not shown *any* statistics showing the chance of developing long term issues as a result of coronavirus sorted by age. I could also not find any such statistics. I don't think this information is available yet. (Opinion) For me, it seems likely that the chance of developing long term symptoms will follow the chance of having serious lung damage - which sharply depends on age. Professor Sir David Spiegelhalter, chairman of the Winton Centre for Risk and Evidence Communication at the University of Cambridge however describes the risk to the young as "staggeringly low" - source http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020...tistician/amp/

PS2 - you claim that "young people respond better to treatment" - I'm not sure where this comes from. There barely is any treatment. Ventilators for instance have been shown to be highly ineffective with the type of lung issues presented by covid patients - source https://time.com/5820556/ventilators-covid-19/. [opinion] Rather it seems to be the better outcome for young patients is as a result of less severe disease resulting from a stronger immune response.

I think all you've shown is that young people go to hospital (albeit at significantly lower rates), with milder symptoms than older people with more severe disease. I don't think that's a meaningful conclusion.
The problem with quoting such statistics is that you have to understand them before attempting to extrapolate from them!

It is clear that the high death rate of older people is due to location; the fact that such older people with existing risk issues are concentrated in care homes where once the virus enters it runs around with deadly effect.

So far we have done a great job of isolating younger people who are members of risk groups; they are not packed together in care facilities and their exposure to infection is highly limited.

COVID-19 is a new disease and we should not jump to conclusions after just a couple of months of statistics.
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  #9531  
Old 14.05.2020, 22:06
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Re: Coronavirus

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Is there any information on flights to EU from Geneva?
I've got flight home in mid June, and the airline (LOT) is showing all is ok..

Which EU country do you want ? as the last time I looked there was 27 of them.
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  #9532  
Old 14.05.2020, 22:09
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Re: Coronavirus

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Huh?

That's obviously true each and every time that happens. It's an outright truism, no exceptions.
Just hoping this is sarcasm on your part...
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  #9533  
Old 14.05.2020, 22:13
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Re: Coronavirus

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Huh?

That's obviously true each and every time that happens. It's an outright truism, no exceptions.
The newly unemployed should have remained hunter-gatherers or subsistence agriculturalists. All this specialization is for the birds!
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  #9534  
Old 14.05.2020, 23:16
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Re: Coronavirus

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We need to get rid of the idea of people of age 70 with a pre-existing condition being "old shit that was about to die soon anyway"
I have to disagree here as I don't think that was his/Jorido's point. It is not about disregarding the elderly and those with co-morbidities. I think we need to think about how do we protect those most at risk AND protect those with less risk to so they resume to work.

There are two issues here: those with co-morbidities and the elderly - and those under 60 or 50 for that matter, who find themselves with no job and no income. There are others with underlying conditions who are fearful of having routine tests for fear of catching Covid.

I have a very good friend who recently completed chemo for Stage 3 stomach cancer (not good) and she is petrified of going in for a necessary colonoscopy for fear of catching Corona.

This not just about the elderly and those with underlying conditions which could pre-dispose them to Corona. This is also about those with cancer, those who find themselves unemployed and destitute - living paycheck to paycheck and now what?

This is also about those in their 20's -30's who find themselves out of work with very limited options regarding a job going forward. What about the future they face? The taxes they face to support this monumental bailout?

Has anyone considered the increase in suicides and drug overdoses given a sustained lockdown? I refer to the US here (sorry Urs Max but there is life outside Switzerland!)
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  #9535  
Old 14.05.2020, 23:57
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Re: Coronavirus

For those who want to catch up on the best of Boris Johnson's Staying Alert messages thats repeated over
& over again in the televised Westminster Daily Briefings, here it is.

Boris Johnson's -Stayin Alert video

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  #9536  
Old 15.05.2020, 00:43
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Re: Coronavirus

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The newly unemployed should have remained hunter-gatherers or subsistence agriculturalists. All this specialization is for the birds!
Exactly!

Those poor innocent souls all got derailed by this market-driven capitalist consumerism. Had they remained where they were, or gone back to where their grand-grand-...-grandparents have been, all that misery would never have happened.

And they would have lived happily ever after!
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Old 15.05.2020, 00:55
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Re: Coronavirus

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Just hoping this is sarcasm on your part...
What's that? And does it even exist outside of Switzerland?
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  #9538  
Old 15.05.2020, 06:07
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Re: Coronavirus

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I have to disagree here as I don't think that was his/Jorido's point. It is not about disregarding the elderly and those with co-morbidities. I think we need to think about how do we protect those most at risk AND protect those with less risk to so they resume to work.
Post corona economy won't look exactly like before. There are or will be jobs, but not easy jobs. Not jobs some or most of the currently or future unemployed would like to have.
The Swiss Post is hiring people for packing/deliveries etc. I'm not sure but I think even garbage collecting services are hiring, food processing factories might be hiring. As I said, not easy jobs. If you moved some documents from one place to another or had an office job for a company which will go bankrupt soon, I don't see how can they keep you. The key words are professional reconversion.

Unfortunately we will have to live with the new normal for quite a while. People won't travel as before, won't eat in restaurants as before, won't buy clothes as before etc etc. The good news is some of the production that is done in China now will be relocated. Again, not very appealing jobs I think.

I'm not sure how an economic recession could be avoided, since we don't have a vaccine yet or a largely functional treatment. We're buying time and the more time we can buy, the better.. Of course there are people who have to start or who never actually ceased working, not even during the pandemic, and that depends a lot on each individual and even each country.

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What's that? And does it even exist outside of Switzerland?
Of course it doesn't, nothing good can exist outside Switzerland.

Last edited by greenmount; 15.05.2020 at 09:20.
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  #9539  
Old 15.05.2020, 07:34
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Re: Coronavirus

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Exactly!

Those poor innocent souls all got derailed by this market-driven capitalist consumerism. Had they remained where they were, or gone back to where their grand-grand-...-grandparents have been, all that misery would never have happened.

And they would have lived happily ever after!
It's a tale as old as time. Suckers.

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Old 15.05.2020, 07:48
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Re: Coronavirus

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Has anyone considered the increase in suicides and drug overdoses given a sustained lockdown? I refer to the US here (sorry Urs Max but there is life outside Switzerland!)
No idea about the US but I read yesterday that suicides in Japan are down about 20%.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...stress-factors
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