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Old 15.06.2020, 11:06
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Re: Coronavirus

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it annoys the F out of me why mods just let him drag EF to the gutter with his shit.
Because as shocking as this sounds to you, his opinion is just as valid as yours and, just btw, he's not as insulting as you are when he expresses his. Which speaks volumes about you as a person btw. If I were you I'd remove the insulting and derogatory comments as your points are not being made stronger by insulting, they are actually weakened

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Just another flu said the dumb people...
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And this is also why I absolutely disgust downplayers like Clifton...
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spreading and trolling their incredible bull-shit
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  #10322  
Old 15.06.2020, 11:15
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Re: Coronavirus

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Just another flu said the dumb people...

In the Netherlands the Lung Foundation did a poll since many people keep on reporting having problems even tho they have beaten the disease (or are assumed to have had it) some time ago. (Dutch Link: https://www.longfonds.nl/Peiling-sch...oronapatienten)

1622 People replied (They specifically asked for people with complaints to respond)

Of these 1622 (Average age 53)

91% has not been in the hospital for Corona
43% has not been officially diagnosed with Corona
85% Said their health was good before the infection, this went down to 6% currently
50% had to give up sporting and is not able yet to start again
60% now has troubles with even a simple thing like walking

Complaints are (but not limited to) exhaustion/exhaustion attacks/fatigue/muscle ache/Burning or painful chest/problems with swallowing/headaches/muscle ache/couching/High heart rate. And almost always it is a combination of several of these things. And a lot of stories of doctors not having a clue yet where to look and no cure, more and more go into therapies for breathing, walking and such.

This is a real problem which up to now has little attention, and no research as to how and why has finished yet.

As for me and my wife, based on symptoms we both are assumed to have had Corona around beginning-mid March, not tested but a lot of the symptoms, we are the group that was told "stay at home and give us a call when you can't handle it anymore", some months later, my wife has 3 failed attempts of picking up work again, she spend some days in the hospital after she fainted outside before she even could walk in, her heartbeat spikes to peaks of 160/170 just while sitting at the couch, we both are mostly exhausted with fatigue attacks that cause us to be so tired that I have to park the car, or sit down in the supermarket and wait if off, pain on the chest comes and goes just like headaches and muscle pains and nobody has a clue how and why.
We both were healthy people in the beginning of the year who could walk 25KM without a problem, now we have pre-fixed meals in the cooler for if we are to tired to cook.

And this is also why I absolutely disgust downplayers like Clifton who clearly have no clue at all what all is happening with their "it only hurts the old and unhealthy" "oh look how many recovered" "it's not that bad" but insist on spreading and trolling their incredible bull-shit, and also why it annoys the F out of me why mods just let him drag EF to the gutter with his shit.
My dad had once pneumonia caused by mold (that was the last opinion from the doctor) and it took several months for full recovery. He was around 55 YO by then. Made a quick google search and this came first https://www.blf.org.uk/support-for-y...monia/recovery

If the virus is really that nasty, I'd guess the lesson is never mistake the long and normal healing process for lifetime disability.

Last edited by Axa; 15.06.2020 at 11:26.
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  #10323  
Old 15.06.2020, 11:30
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Re: Coronavirus

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Because as shocking as this sounds to you, his opinion is just as valid as yours and, just btw, he's not as insulting as you are when he expresses his. Which speaks volumes about you as a person btw. If I were you I'd remove the insulting and derogatory comments as your points are not being made stronger by insulting, they are actually weakened
Telling lies and twisting facts has nothing to do with sharing an opinion.

And no I'll not remove anything from my post and stand fully behind it.
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  #10324  
Old 15.06.2020, 11:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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85% Said their health was good before the infection, this went down to 6% currently
50% had to give up sporting and is not able yet to start again
60% now has troubles with even a simple thing like walking

Complaints are (but not limited to) exhaustion/exhaustion attacks/fatigue/muscle ache/Burning or painful chest/problems with swallowing/headaches/muscle ache/couching/High heart rate. And almost always it is a combination of several of these things. And a lot of stories of doctors not having a clue yet where to look and no cure, more and more go into therapies for breathing, walking and such.

This is a real problem which up to now has little attention, and no research as to how and why has finished yet.

As for me and my wife, based on symptoms we both are assumed to have had Corona around beginning-mid March, not tested but a lot of the symptoms, we are the group that was told "stay at home and give us a call when you can't handle it anymore", some months later, my wife has 3 failed attempts of picking up work again, she spend some days in the hospital after she fainted outside before she even could walk in, her heartbeat spikes to peaks of 160/170 just while sitting at the couch, we both are mostly exhausted with fatigue attacks that cause us to be so tired that I have to park the car, or sit down in the supermarket and wait if off, pain on the chest comes and goes just like headaches and muscle pains and nobody has a clue how and why.
We both were healthy people in the beginning of the year who could walk 25KM without a problem, now we have pre-fixed meals in the cooler for if we are to tired to cook.
Edwin, you and your wife have my sympathies. What you are going through sounds like hell!

Yes, those few people close to me are experiencing exactly what you describe. They were fit and able, they were busy getting on with their lives, and now they're dragging themselves around, or sometimes not even managing that.

I think this is the most worrying aspect of Covid-19, above all else. The living grieve for the dead, but the dead are at least no longer in this suffering. But who will care for the living, who are still (medium-term? long-term?) ill?

I hope that you and your wife can find ways to get help as you clearly need it. And more than that, I wish you a proper recovery.
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  #10325  
Old 15.06.2020, 13:55
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Re: Coronavirus

I've been surprised by the extreme views of the reaction to the virus. Sorry if I misrepresent you, but a team that claims there was NO reason to justify the lockdown (economic harm!!!) and the other team that claims lives are more important that money at the first mention of money.

Where's the middle ground? The problem here is that the leaders that aim to the middle ground solution are perceived as weak by extremists . All those comments on the weakness and indecisiveness of Alain Berset.

I remember the words of Simonetta Sommaruga by mid-march: the number of cases is growing, we don't know how this can evolve, we should enforce a lockdown and we can afford to pay it. Since, the light lockdown because it seemed the most sensible decision at the time. Then nothing happened and it's time reopen. Trial & error. This is not the most comforting approach to people that want a strong father in power, but it's OK for people that appreciate freedom. As a boring net tax payer in CH I don't mind the extra taxes (if they come) in the following years to pay for kurzarbeit and other help to business affected by the lockdown. Such a low bar for solidarity
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  #10326  
Old 15.06.2020, 13:56
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Re: Coronavirus

The last few posts made me think about chronic fatigue syndrome. This from:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...s/syc-20360490


"Viral infections. Because some people develop chronic fatigue syndrome after having a viral infection, researchers question whether some viruses might trigger the disorder. Suspicious viruses include Epstein-Barr virus, human herpes virus 6 and mouse leukemia viruses. No conclusive link has yet been found."
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  #10327  
Old 15.06.2020, 14:22
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Re: Coronavirus

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I've been surprised by the extreme views of the reaction to the virus. Sorry if I misrepresent you, but a team that claims there was NO reason to justify the lockdown (economic harm!!!) and the other team that claims lives are more important that money at the first mention of money.

Where's the middle ground? The problem here is that the leaders that aim to the middle ground solution are perceived as weak by extremists . All those comments on the weakness and indecisiveness of Alain Berset.

I remember the words of Simonetta Sommaruga by mid-march: the number of cases is growing, we don't know how this can evolve, we should enforce a lockdown and we can afford to pay it. Since, the light lockdown because it seemed the most sensible decision at the time. Then nothing happened and it's time reopen. Trial & error. This is not the most comforting approach to people that want a strong father in power, but it's OK for people that appreciate freedom. As a boring net tax payer in CH I don't mind the extra taxes (if they come) in the following years to pay for kurzarbeit and other help to business affected by the lockdown. Such a low bar for solidarity
What Switzerland did was the middle ground imho. We never went in a full lockdown and zero deaths was never the goal, yet we stopped allowing human interference at normal numbers.
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  #10328  
Old 15.06.2020, 14:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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The last few posts made me think about chronic fatigue syndrome. This from:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...s/syc-20360490


"Viral infections. Because some people develop chronic fatigue syndrome after having a viral infection, researchers question whether some viruses might trigger the disorder. Suspicious viruses include Epstein-Barr virus, human herpes virus 6 and mouse leukemia viruses. No conclusive link has yet been found."

You might find this one interesting, I did.

https://meassociation.org.uk/wp-cont...n-30.04.20.pdf
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  #10329  
Old 15.06.2020, 14:39
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Re: Coronavirus

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Telling lies and twisting facts has nothing to do with sharing an opinion.

And no I'll not remove anything from my post and stand fully behind it.
Oh, pretend you're cool with all that. Use your ignore list when you can, it can work wonders.

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As a boring net tax payer in CH I don't mind the extra taxes (if they come) in the following years to pay for kurzarbeit and other help to business affected by the lockdown. Such a low bar for solidarity
You're not the only one.

Last edited by greenmount; 15.06.2020 at 14:53.
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  #10330  
Old 15.06.2020, 15:07
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Re: Coronavirus

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...and as usual ignoring the fact that without lockdown that 9K would have been 100,000 to 200,000 deaths.
Maybe, maybe not, nobody knows for sure.

Tom
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  #10331  
Old 15.06.2020, 15:11
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Re: Coronavirus

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Maybe, maybe not, nobody knows for sure.

Tom
If something aligns with ones opinion, it becomes a "fact", if it doesn't it becomes "bullshit" (as per EdwinNL )
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  #10332  
Old 15.06.2020, 15:14
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Re: Coronavirus

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I've been surprised by the extreme views of the reaction to the virus. Sorry if I misrepresent you, but a team that claims there was NO reason to justify the lockdown (economic harm!!!) and the other team that claims lives are more important that money at the first mention of money.

Where's the middle ground? The problem here is that the leaders that aim to the middle ground solution are perceived as weak by extremists . All those comments on the weakness and indecisiveness of Alain Berset.

I remember the words of Simonetta Sommaruga by mid-march: the number of cases is growing, we don't know how this can evolve, we should enforce a lockdown and we can afford to pay it. Since, the light lockdown because it seemed the most sensible decision at the time. Then nothing happened and it's time reopen. Trial & error. This is not the most comforting approach to people that want a strong father in power, but it's OK for people that appreciate freedom. As a boring net tax payer in CH I don't mind the extra taxes (if they come) in the following years to pay for kurzarbeit and other help to business affected by the lockdown. Such a low bar for solidarity
My view is the middle ground, unfortunately it get's twisted on here by those still clinging to the belief that the hard lockdown was necessary.

As I've said, given how little we knew when the virus from the outset, on balance it was the correct decision to lockdown. Given what we know now (predominately affects very old people, low infection mortality rate, damage caused by lockdowns, effectiveness of social distancing etc.) there is very little cause left to argue for the lockdown. I think the Swiss did a very good job on managing the Coronavirus outbreak (soft lockdown followed by accelerated reopening once risk of the virus was better understood)

Politicians, the media (who's hysterical reporting is largely responsible for how the politicians reacted), and lockdown fans can't bare to admit that perhaps some mistakes were made. Which is why any reports, papers and leaks revealing that the lockdown was unnecessary are ignored or shouted down. They can't be seen to lose face, sad really!
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  #10333  
Old 15.06.2020, 15:18
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Re: Coronavirus

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As for me and my wife, based on symptoms we both are assumed to have had Corona around beginning-mid March, not tested but a lot of the symptoms, we are the group that was told "stay at home and give us a call when you can't handle it anymore", some months later, my wife has 3 failed attempts of picking up work again, she spend some days in the hospital after she fainted outside before she even could walk in, her heartbeat spikes to peaks of 160/170 just while sitting at the couch, we both are mostly exhausted with fatigue attacks that cause us to be so tired that I have to park the car, or sit down in the supermarket and wait if off, pain on the chest comes and goes just like headaches and muscle pains and nobody has a clue how and why.
We both were healthy people in the beginning of the year who could walk 25KM without a problem, now we have pre-fixed meals in the cooler for if we are to tired to cook.
I understand how you and your wife feel. I came back from East Africa years ago with what was eventually diagnosed as „Probably a virus of some sort“

I spent a week sweating and shivering in 4 hour cycles. After a week I could get up but hardly walk. I managed to fly back to the UK, but it was awful.

Back home I was admitted to an isolation ward and kept there 10 days until my temperature was normal.

I thought the symptoms were bad, but on recovery was worse! I Was total exhausted by just getting out of bed.

I never knew what effort it takes to speak. I spent most of my days sleeping on the sofa. The doc told me I‘d be away from work of 3 months. In the event I was very determined that it wouldn‘t beat me and was back in 6 weeks.

Why am I telling you this? Well, I did recover. It took 6 months to get back to 100% and I lost 10 kgs. These things take time. But you will both recover...
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  #10334  
Old 15.06.2020, 16:13
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Re: Coronavirus

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If something aligns with ones opinion, it becomes a "fact", if it doesn't it becomes "bullshit" (as per EdwinNL )
Could you explain to us what twisting and bending the facts have to do with sharing an opinion? Since clearly I and others fail to understand such?
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  #10335  
Old 15.06.2020, 16:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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My view is the middle ground, unfortunately it get's twisted on here by those still clinging to the belief that the hard lockdown was necessary.

As I've said, given how little we knew when the virus from the outset, on balance it was the correct decision to lockdown. Given what we know now (predominately affects very old people, low infection mortality rate, damage caused by lockdowns, effectiveness of social distancing etc.) there is very little cause left to argue for the lockdown. I think the Swiss did a very good job on managing the Coronavirus outbreak (soft lockdown followed by accelerated reopening once risk of the virus was better understood)

Politicians, the media (who's hysterical reporting is largely responsible for how the politicians reacted), and lockdown fans can't bare to admit that perhaps some mistakes were made. Which is why any reports, papers and leaks revealing that the lockdown was unnecessary are ignored or shouted down. They can't be seen to lose face, sad really!
Errors of fact: the infection rate and mortality has been shown to highly situation/age group specific but in general at least ten times higher than the common flu for both.
This is an extremely dangerous combination -highly infectious with a mortality rate that is high but not too high for virus spread - if the mortality rate is too high the virus peters out - as is the case for Ebola, when the communities do the right things to really slow infection rates.


I don't agree that the tight lockdown was unnecessary - one only has inter-country comparisons to go by. Each country has its own particular circumstances but comparing Switzerland with the UK, the UK locked down much too late and is may be opening too early
What is trying to save face, is not admitting you got it wrong - Brazil, Sweden, USA etc etc -these mistakes directly cost many lives.
If the lockdown was too tight in some countries, in particular not all measures were effective, then this has had mainly an economic effect.
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  #10336  
Old 15.06.2020, 19:25
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Re: Coronavirus

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Politicians, the media (who's hysterical reporting is largely responsible for how the politicians reacted), and lockdown fans can't bare to admit that perhaps some mistakes were made.
Can you call it a mistake when no better information was available to take a decision? It easy and tempting to call it a mistake when you already know the outcome, but lacking intellectual honesty.

Finally, what mistake should be admitted and by whom in Switzerland? What went wrong? Not only wrong, but seriously wrong to be regrettable?
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  #10337  
Old 15.06.2020, 20:26
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Re: Coronavirus

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Can you call it a mistake when no better information was available to take a decision? It easy and tempting to call it a mistake when you already know the outcome, but lacking intellectual honesty.

Finally, what mistake should be admitted and by whom in Switzerland? What went wrong? Not only wrong, but seriously wrong to be regrettable?
We don't know the outcome and real costs yet. We cannot say now, really, not yet. Just like we couldn't at the beginning. It is intellectually honest to doubt if what was done was in fact the best M.O. I think to doubt or question the past strategies prepares one better for the next crisis. It is pragmatic. He has his right to question the past strategies as much as anyone has their right to feel good about them. I think it is desirable to de-dramatize people's points of view so we can share them.

Media dramatize and sell panic. It prepares nobody for anything.
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  #10338  
Old 15.06.2020, 20:49
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Re: Coronavirus

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Errors of fact: the infection rate and mortality has been shown to highly situation/age group specific but in general at least ten times higher than the common flu for both.
This is an extremely dangerous combination -highly infectious with a mortality rate that is high but not too high for virus spread - if the mortality rate is too high the virus peters out - as is the case for Ebola, when the communities do the right things to really slow infection rates.


I don't agree that the tight lockdown was unnecessary - one only has inter-country comparisons to go by. Each country has its own particular circumstances but comparing Switzerland with the UK, the UK locked down much too late and is may be opening too early
What is trying to save face, is not admitting you got it wrong - Brazil, Sweden, USA etc etc -these mistakes directly cost many lives.
If the lockdown was too tight in some countries, in particular not all measures were effective, then this has had mainly an economic effect.
As MC posted it is far too soon to claim we know the outcome and real costs.

In fact, as time goes by it becomes ever clearer how little we do understand of this new virus.
As an example, there are a lot of armchair theorists but no real proof of why Belgium has had a death rate of over 800 per million; 8 times the rate of its neighbour Germany .
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Old 15.06.2020, 21:21
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Re: Coronavirus

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I don't agree that the tight lockdown was unnecessary - one only has inter-country comparisons to go by. Each country has its own particular circumstances but comparing Switzerland with the UK, the UK locked down much too late and is may be opening too early
What is trying to save face, is not admitting you got it wrong - Brazil, Sweden, USA etc etc -these mistakes directly cost many lives.
If the lockdown was too tight in some countries, in particular not all measures were effective, then this has had mainly an economic effect.
This is the argument being put out there by the media as they double down to try and justify their fear mongering. Early studies suggest that the UK didn't lockdown too late and that the rate of infection was already on the decline before lockdown (https://arxiv.org/pdf/2005.02090.pdf).

Same goes for lifting it too early. There are very few new cases in the UK now other than in care homes and hospitals. The argument for continuing the lockdown is flimsy at best. If there is no spike following the last two weekends of protests then I think we can finally put the lockdown argument to bed.

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Can you call it a mistake when no better information was available to take a decision? It easy and tempting to call it a mistake when you already know the outcome, but lacking intellectual honesty.

Finally, what mistake should be admitted and by whom in Switzerland? What went wrong? Not only wrong, but seriously wrong to be regrettable?
I believe all your questions have already been answered in what I wrote originally

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My view is the middle ground, unfortunately it get's twisted on here by those still clinging to the belief that the hard lockdown was necessary.

As I've said, given how little we knew when the virus from the outset, on balance it was the correct decision to lockdown. Given what we know now (predominately affects very old people, low infection mortality rate, damage caused by lockdowns, effectiveness of social distancing etc.) there is very little cause left to argue for the lockdown. I think the Swiss did a very good job on managing the Coronavirus outbreak (soft lockdown followed by accelerated reopening once risk of the virus was better understood)

Politicians, the media (who's hysterical reporting is largely responsible for how the politicians reacted), and lockdown fans can't bare to admit that perhaps some mistakes were made. Which is why any reports, papers and leaks revealing that the lockdown was unnecessary are ignored or shouted down. They can't be seen to lose face, sad really!
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Old 15.06.2020, 22:25
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Re: Coronavirus

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This is the argument being put out there by the media as they double down to try and justify their fear mongering. Early studies suggest that the UK didn't lockdown too late and that the rate of infection was already on the decline before lockdown (https://arxiv.org/pdf/2005.02090.pdf).

Same goes for lifting it too early. There are very few new cases in the UK now other than in care homes and hospitals. The argument for continuing the lockdown is flimsy at best. If there is no spike following the last two weekends of protests then I think we can finally put the lockdown argument to bed.



I believe all your questions have already been answered in what I wrote originally
In the US, cases have been dramatically increasing in 14 states since the lockdown restrictions were eased.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...some-us-states

"A total of 14 states and the US territory of Puerto Rico have recorded their worst week yet for new coronavirus infections, with Texas hitting a record high in Covid-19 hospitalizations, all while restrictions to curb the pandemic are being relaxed across America...

A resurgence in new infections has been detected in states including Florida, Texas and California, as authorities allow certain businesses and public places to reopen."
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cold, corona, coronavirus, covid, covid-19, flu, health, medical, virus




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