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  #10501  
Old 24.06.2020, 10:40
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Re: Coronavirus

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In the everlasting words of George Carlin — 'Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.'
Only a masochist mocks stupid people.
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  #10502  
Old 24.06.2020, 10:43
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Re: Coronavirus

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I will type in this s-l-o-w-e-r so you can read it more carefully
150k deaths DAILY overall
3600 deaths DAILY from Covid

DAILY cardiovascular deaths are over 10x more than Covid and DAILY cancer deaths are 7x more than covid. DAILY. Which means every day. not annually. As i pointed out to the other EF members who have a problem with scaling and risk assessment and context, liver disease DAILY deaths outnumber covid too.

Now please continue with the avalanche of biased BBC articles
Where do you get your number of 3600 deaths DAILY from Covid, the number is nearer 5,000?

You are comparing apples and oranges, you are comparing COVID-19 deaths with world wide deaths which include countries that do not yet have the virus or are in the early stages. The picture looks very different when you compare statistics within COVID-19 countries.
Liver cirrhosis disease deaths are around 2,700 daily worldwide.
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  #10503  
Old 24.06.2020, 11:07
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Re: Coronavirus

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...Cardiovascular deaths daily are over 10x more than Covid. Cancers are 7x more daily than Covid...
Cardiovascular deaths can result from a variety of different health conditions. There are dozens of cancers. Yet you (and many others) compare death rates for both of those causes of death to one single virus. A comparison with seasonal flu is a bit more accurate since that's similarly contagious.

However, I agree the moving graph can be confusing, particularly if one doesn't read the legends or fine print. One might think Covid-19 is #1 overall in deaths so far this year, which it's not. But the graph makes a valid point in showing how rapidly this one little virus sped up the "death charts" in only a few months.
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  #10504  
Old 24.06.2020, 11:12
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Re: Coronavirus

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Why would I be offended? I'm neither the object of your racism, nor am I a fan of the relatively unsophisticated Mohrenkopf.
The only thing I'd be offended is the choice of the animal. Frog? It could be rooster for goodness sake!

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Yep, the point is that since Covid, magically Assad stopped using chemical weapons, Venezuela and China stopped abusing democracy and Russia stopped harassing Ukraine Nothing else seems to be happening, it's only Covid.

for me the learning is how naive is the average voter and how narrow and limited is the field-view, so yes, i'm watching the whole story with great interest.

In the everlasting words of George Carlin — 'Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.'
Yeah. Frankly I do understand the desire to move on with our lives but too much relaxation can bring back an avalanche of new cases we might not be able to control anymore. It doesn't matter people die of other causes too, it matters that many hospitals/countries won't be able to cope anymore. You must see that, gaburko.
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  #10505  
Old 24.06.2020, 11:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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Where do you get your number of 3600 deaths DAILY from Covid, the number is nearer 5,000?
Nope, maybe time to update your figures. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/t...y-covid-deaths

Yesterday they were even less: 3423.

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You are comparing apples and oranges,
Are you saying that the WHO and BBC were wrong when they announced this as a GLOBAL pandemic?

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However, I agree the moving graph can be confusing, particularly if one doesn't read the legends or fine print. One might think Covid-19 is #1 overall in deaths so far this year, which it's not.
Exactly the point I am trying to make! But people tend to believe headlines and not read the details.


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Only a masochist mocks stupid people.
Well, George Carlin passed away, surprisingly not from Covid, as unbelievable as this sounds, so you won't get a chance to tell him this

Last edited by gaburko; 24.06.2020 at 11:56.
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  #10506  
Old 24.06.2020, 14:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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Cardiovascular deaths can result from a variety of different health conditions.
You keep claiming those DAILY cardiovascular deaths are over 10x more than COVID but there are very many different Cardiovascular diseases that you are grouping together in "cardiovascular deaths" to compare with just one disease virus.

From WHO here is a list of classes of Cardiovascular diseases; within each class are defined multiple individual diseases.
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  • coronary heart disease – disease of the blood vessels supplying the heart muscle;
  • cerebrovascular disease – disease of the blood vessels supplying the brain;
  • peripheral arterial disease – disease of blood vessels supplying the arms and legs;
  • rheumatic heart disease – damage to the heart muscle and heart valves from rheumatic fever, caused by streptococcal bacteria;
  • congenital heart disease – malformations of heart structure existing at birth;
  • deep vein thrombosis and pulmonary embolism – blood clots in the leg veins, which can dislodge and move to the heart and lungs.
As to daily COVID deaths
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Nope, maybe time to update your figures. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/t...y-covid-deaths

Yesterday they were even less: 3423.
From your link the latest is 5,588; you need to update your figures!

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  #10507  
Old 24.06.2020, 14:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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You keep claiming those DAILY cardiovascular deaths are over 10x more than COVID but there are very many different Cardiovascular diseases that you are grouping together in "cardiovascular deaths" to compare with just one disease virus.
Did you perhaps quote the wrong person, because we're actually in agreement. I am not making a big deal about daily cardiovascular deaths. In fact, I said that there are a variety of things that cause cardiovascular deaths and dozens of cancers, and that it's not reasonable to compare those to one virus.
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  #10508  
Old 24.06.2020, 15:30
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Re: Coronavirus

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Did you perhaps quote the wrong person, because we're actually in agreement. I am not making a big deal about daily cardiovascular deaths. In fact, I said that there are a variety of things that cause cardiovascular deaths and dozens of cancers, and that it's not reasonable to compare those to one virus.
Oh, Sorry. I will go and sit in the corner
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  #10509  
Old 24.06.2020, 15:37
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Re: Coronavirus

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...but there are very many different Cardiovascular diseases that you are grouping together in "cardiovascular deaths" to compare with just one disease virus.
Yes, this is indeed true. However, can you find RELIABLE statistics how many people die from COVID only and how many from "complications and underlying conditions" while having Covid?

Because in the leaked report from the German government which was later dismissed and the employee fired, the key point was that the majority of these people would have statistically died within 12 months anyway. Having terminal cancer and 3 months life-span and dying today from Covid will be attributed to Covid, not cancer. 3 months from now it would have been cancer.
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  #10510  
Old 24.06.2020, 15:47
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Re: Coronavirus

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Yes, this is indeed true. However, can you find RELIABLE statistics how many people die from COVID only and how many from "complications and underlying conditions" while having Covid?

Because in the leaked report from the German government which was later dismissed and the employee fired, the key point was that the majority of these people would have statistically died within 12 months anyway. Having terminal cancer and 3 months life-span and dying today from Covid will be attributed to Covid, not cancer. 3 months from now it would have been cancer.
That's why a long while back I said that it will be interesting to see if there is a decline in deaths in the next year or two from these premature deaths due to Covid. I think there will be no end of studies done on this, and the resulting economic damage. Or course this year is the year of hindsight, 2020 as they say. Or 6/6 here.
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  #10511  
Old 24.06.2020, 15:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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Yes, this is indeed true. However, can you find RELIABLE statistics how many people die from COVID only and how many from "complications and underlying conditions" while having Covid?

Because in the leaked report from the German government which was later dismissed and the employee fired, the key point was that the majority of these people would have statistically died within 12 months anyway. Having terminal cancer and 3 months life-span and dying today from Covid will be attributed to Covid, not cancer. 3 months from now it would have been cancer.

I'm sure that particular person was happy to die 3 months earlier of Covid and not later of cancer..... NOT


What is the point you are getting at?
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  #10512  
Old 24.06.2020, 15:56
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'm sure that particular person was happy to die 3 months earlier of Covid and not later of cancer..... NOT


What is the point you are getting at?
There's arguments to be made on the emotional side for saving everybody at any costs.

There's arguments for saving no people at no cost.

These are not binary positions and there exists everything in between.

Having stunted the economy making life harder for everybody to benefit the few, there are some people a bit miffed about the whole thing.
Having saved only a few without doing further to protect everyone there are others miffed about it. Just different viewpoints.
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  #10513  
Old 24.06.2020, 16:13
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Re: Coronavirus

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Yes, this is indeed true. However, can you find RELIABLE statistics how many people die from COVID only and how many from "complications and underlying conditions" while having Covid?

Because in the leaked report from the German government which was later dismissed and the employee fired, the key point was that the majority of these people would have statistically died within 12 months anyway. Having terminal cancer and 3 months life-span and dying today from Covid will be attributed to Covid, not cancer. 3 months from now it would have been cancer.
Exactly the same place as you can find RELIABLE statistics of how many people die from other diseases.

How many died from "complications and underlying conditions" while suffering from one of the cardiovascular diseases?
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  #10514  
Old 24.06.2020, 16:21
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Re: Coronavirus

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Exactly the same place as you can find RELIABLE statistics of how many people die from other diseases.
So, we're dealing with a situation in which the cause of death cannot be reliably attributed with certainty to any cause. In this particular instance, an uptick of around 2% in the daily death toll is very well within the margin of error and should not be headline news for the past 4 months and the reason to wreck a few tens of millions of jobs and most importantly: my holiday plans.
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  #10515  
Old 24.06.2020, 16:42
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Re: Coronavirus

I would like to vote for this post to be the most dumb post of the week.

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Having terminal cancer and 3 months life-span and dying today from Covid will be attributed to Covid, not cancer. 3 months from now it would have been cancer.
Imagine having 3 months to live and than you get hit by a car while crossing the street, normal people would say death due to traffic accident. gaburko however would seemingly prefer it to be attributed to cancer.

What is your limit? 3 months?, 6 months? 20 years?
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  #10516  
Old 24.06.2020, 16:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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I would like to vote for this post to be the most dumb post of the week.
That's hardly fair, it's only Wednesday!
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  #10517  
Old 24.06.2020, 17:01
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Re: Coronavirus

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I would like to vote for this post to be the most dumb post of the week.
Vote?! Since when did EF become a democracy? Jeez, Covid is indeed changing our lives in unexpected ways
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  #10518  
Old 24.06.2020, 17:07
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Re: Coronavirus

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Having terminal cancer and 3 months life-span and dying today from Covid will be attributed to Covid, not cancer. 3 months from now it would have been cancer.
This is a very interesting take.

Remember that association that helps people to die with dignity, EXIT CH? What is the cause of death? Cancer, depression, neurodegenerative disease, boredom or cardiorespiratory arrest induced by drugs requested by the individual being assisted?

The number of assisted suicides is indeed a good insight into people's minds. Only a very few choose a premature end, most people endure until the end even if it really hurts. People value so much those final months that significant financial expenses and personal suffering are involved.

Asking why suffer and why spend so much for such a short period is a valid question. Like or not, the majority think it's worth. If people gave no value to some months of life, EXIT would have a lot more people asking their help. How the economists call this, revealed preferences?
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Old 24.06.2020, 17:17
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That's hardly fair, it's only Wednesday!
Maybe it should also be seen as a reward for his postings in this topic all together, his reluctance for example to understand the potential of a disease like Corona, like how would Switzerland end up if half the population this summer would get the virus?
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  #10520  
Old 24.06.2020, 17:20
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Re: Coronavirus

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If people gave no value to some months of life, EXIT would have a lot more people asking their help. How the economists call this, revealed preferences?
Exactly! The few that chose EXIT are the homo economicus that seems to be an extremely rare species that certain Nobel prize winners would love to talk to
The rest of us are irrational and hence, when told we have terminal cancer we hope a pill will be discovered before the end. We're so irrational particularly about death, that we collapsed the world economy and left tens of millions without jobs because there's 2% more deaths. It's all a great insight into the human psyche.
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