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Old 06.08.2020, 16:13
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Re: Coronavirus

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I think it's slowly stating to dawn on people what a catastrophic mistake the lockdown was...
Maybe laypeople but governments continue to implement lockdowns of various strictness as the virus moves along. I think it's partly because reducing contact reduces spread, but largely because governments need to be seen as "doing something" so they have to try. Leaving everything open and we all do what we want isn't "doing something". And of course no government wants to admit its approach to this pandemic was lacking.

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...the last bit of tolerance has gone out the window...
I think that's true on multiple sides of the issue. People are tired of each other, tired of lockdowns or other "infringing" measures, tired of hearing about it on the news, etc. Governments are tired of people not doing what's recommended or even mandated (ha, nothing new there). Health authorities are tired of spending a truckton of time refuting BS. I'm tired of all the competing, contradicting studies that are being rushed to publication without peer review, because I think it only hurts the credibility of scientists more. I'm also very skeptical about how rushed all these vaccine trials are.

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Your friend's loss is the environment's gain at least. One of the few positives to come out of all of this.
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...Your environmental satisfaction will not pay people's bills...
I think HM is trying to make a point, please correct me if I'm wrong, HM. The point is that regardless of your beliefs "never let a good crisis go to waste". For companies wanting to trim employee costs, great timing and something to blame it on besides incompetent management. For environmentalists, there will be evidence that the drastically reduced global travel has had some positive impact on the environment (CO2 levels being the most sexy topic right now).

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...As we learned early on, "the state" can just pay and worst case "the state" can just print some more money (Zimbabwe called to talk about their experience, it went very well). Easy-peasy.
Have you seen the new book out called The Debt Myth? I've not read it but I've read some reviews/critiques. The argument is that for most countries debt doesn't really matter, because the ability to print money is unlimited for pretty much any country except the EU bloc. It's a mind-bending exercise that I'm not sure I believe. But it is making waves.

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...All airtravel is now pretty much doomed.
In the short term that seems true. In the long term once we have a vaccine and more proven treatments, people will get out and about again. Just look at stories on EF recently. Many of our members have traveled by air and many more will once they feel it's safer. Probably also once these annoying quarantines are lifted.

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...Bankruptcy isn't that bad anyway - do it enough times and you might even become president
Gave you a thanks for your post because this bit made me laugh.
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  #11362  
Old 06.08.2020, 16:23
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Re: Coronavirus

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This crisis has shown what is really important, and I think increasingly, people are realising that propping up big business at the expense of people's lives, is probably a bad thing.
People are realizing that it is the big businesses' taxes that are paying for ventilators and millions of people on kurzarbeit.

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  #11363  
Old 06.08.2020, 16:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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In the short term that seems true. In the long term once we have a vaccine...
I understand what makes people hopeful but don't understand what makes people sure that "once we have a vaccine..". I don't think we will. That's kind of irrelevant, anyways. Life will get to the new normal and some stuff will normalize. My point was that job market will never be the same and it has started March 15. This will impact all. I do not think that there is one country that can afford another lockdown. Pilots are just a little part of this...insurance companies would tell us more, but a bunch will not last either.
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  #11364  
Old 06.08.2020, 16:42
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Re: Coronavirus

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People are realizing that it is the big businesses' taxes that are paying for ventilators and millions of people on kurzarbeit.
Or perhaps that there would be enough ventilators if big businesses actually paid taxes where they were based.
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  #11365  
Old 06.08.2020, 16:45
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Re: Coronavirus

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My point was that job market will never be the same and it has started March 15. This will impact all. I do not think that there is one country that can afford another lockdown. Pilots are just a little part of this...insurance companies would tell us more, but a bunch will not last either.

The world has survived the crash of 1929, world wars, Enron and the following bank crash, it will survive this. Hopefully in a better and maybe also more environmental friendly way.
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  #11366  
Old 06.08.2020, 16:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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Or perhaps that there would be enough ventilators if big businesses actually paid taxes where they were based.
Sure, glad you appreciate their contributions. But bankrupt business pays nada, no matter where it is based.

Another thing is - people have complained that the attitude is becoming lax towards the measures. It really isn't at all here. Big canton here, with big costs, people really comply.
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  #11367  
Old 06.08.2020, 16:57
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Re: Coronavirus

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Sure, glad you appreciate their contributions. But bankrupt business pays nada, no matter where it is based.
Bit of a non sequitur - businesses pay taxes on profits, so by the very nature of that can afford to pay them. Nobody is taxing loss making businesses likely to go bankrupt.

Anyway, sorry to pull a mod back onto topic, but Corona...
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Old 06.08.2020, 16:59
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Re: Coronavirus

I think this is a good example of why we shouldn't prioritize the economy over the spread of the virus:

More than 50 Florida hospitals have run out of ICU beds as coronavirus cases soar

https://www.businessinsider.com/near...20-7?r=US&IR=T

"Florida hospitals are running dangerously low on ICU beds as coronavirus cases continue to tick upward. More than 50 hospitals in Florida have maxed out their intensive care unit capacity, according to the state's Agency for Health Care Administration. Nearly 360,400 people in the Sunshine State have been infected by COVID-19 and more than 5,000 have died, making it the third-hardest-hit state in the United States, according to Johns Hopkins University."

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  #11369  
Old 06.08.2020, 17:06
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Re: Coronavirus

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I think this is a good example of why we shouldn't prioritize the economy over the spread of the virus:

More than 50 Florida hospitals have run out of ICU beds as coronavirus cases soar

So in summary, the USA's retirement capital has been hard hit by a virus that largely impacts older populations?

I'll try not to get to Florida any time soon. But I can't fly there, and by the time I might be able to, there'll be 1 airline flying a clapped out 20 year old A350 for extortionate prices.
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  #11370  
Old 06.08.2020, 17:07
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Re: Coronavirus

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Bit of a non sequitur - businesses pay taxes on profits, so by the very nature of that can afford to pay them. Nobody is taxing loss making businesses likely to go bankrupt.
Lockdown erases profits, causes bankrupcy. So of course nobody can tax non profitting businesses. Where there is no income, healthcare suffers. Or becomes unaffordable, look at the US.

You make me laugh with your druid circular reasoning
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  #11371  
Old 06.08.2020, 17:09
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Re: Coronavirus

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So in summary, the USA's retirement capital has been hard hit by a virus that largely impacts older populations?

I'll try not to get to Florida any time soon. But I can't fly there, and by the time I might be able to, there'll be 1 airline flying a clapped out 20 year old A350 for extortionate prices.
Just think about your children's green planet.

And you might have to fly it yourself.
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  #11372  
Old 06.08.2020, 17:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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So in summary, the USA's retirement capital has been hard hit by a virus that largely impacts older populations?

I'll try not to get to Florida any time soon. But I can't fly there, and by the time I might be able to, there'll be 1 airline flying a clapped out 20 year old A350 for extortionate prices.

Well, I guess some people care more about the elderly than others.

"How a society treats its most vulnerable is always the measure of its humanity."

While the elderly as well as people with diabetes, etc. are the most vulnerable, there are many younger people who have been dying and/or requiring hospitalization from it as well.

Covid-19 causes sudden strokes in young adults, doctors say

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/22/h...lts/index.html

Coronavirus linked to stroke in otherwise healthy young people

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0604095600.htm

Think you’re too young to be hospitalized by coronavirus? This chart shows why you’re wrong

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/...ovid-19-chart/
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  #11373  
Old 06.08.2020, 17:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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Lockdown erases profits, causes bankrupcy. So of course nobody can tax non profitting businesses. Where there is no income, healthcare suffers. Or becomes unaffordable, look at the US.

You make me laugh with your druid circular reasoning
And the decades before Corona?

Bit naughty trying to invalidate an argument like that.
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Old 06.08.2020, 17:27
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Re: Coronavirus

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No my friend, I operate by taking the EVIDENCE available and making up my own opinion, otherwise known as critical thinking. That you so blithely dismiss the Hydroxychloroquine studies and accept the efficacy of masks seems to me that you're happy to accept any narrative spun to you by the media and/or politicians.
I’m not your friend, cupcake. Let’s not insult each other. I can see that your idea of “evidence” is different from mine, and you consult different sources. I read medical and scientific literature from the source - not filtered through media or politicians.

I was skeptical of masks at first, but studies examining the properties of aerosols changed my mind. The Hcq studies are confounded - in some cases by administration of corticosteroids, in other cases, poor sampling procedures.

I’m willing to update my thinking when new evidence is presented. You?
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Old 06.08.2020, 17:31
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'd take the HCQ if it was offered.
This study is very recent.
Not a study. Press release. And, the Ford study in particular is confounded by the administration of corticosteroids, which have been shown to be effective.

But I hope you don’t have to be offered hcq unless you come down with malaria or lupus.
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Old 06.08.2020, 17:46
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Re: Coronavirus

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And the decades before Corona?
To be honest, things were never transparent enough before and now everything is going to be even less. Because force majeure. It is naieve to think that all of a sudden in the midst of economical hault and aftermath albeit short, we are going to become self sufficient, ethical and green.

I am not worried much about strong economies like CH, but in terms of a job market - just feel like these moments of relatively easy semilockdown thinking if things go bad again we will come back to our cocoon...no.

Every shut business is lowering our own earning potential and how much we can chip in to the communal pot that will keep all afloat. I think people get snake charmed by the comfort of home office without realizing that it makes them more replaceable. People think a couple of sacked travel agents and flight companies or insurance agencies will not knock down the economy, when the truth is - our own employability is tightly linked to everyone else's. They insure us by how much they contribute, we insure them. Big companies even more.

None of my local friends are as optimistic as I read here, they know. Nobody shrugs the economy off with a nostalgia of the tragedies in the past and look at us now. They know how much worth lies in all of us being employed, not claiming rav, big and small companies having the best conditions for growth and none of them think that there will be another lock down. When there are conditions for green thinking, it certainly is a priority here.
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Old 06.08.2020, 17:50
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Re: Coronavirus

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In the short term that seems true. In the long term once we have a vaccine and more proven treatments, people will get out and about again. Just look at stories on EF recently. Many of our members have traveled by air and many more will once they feel it's safer. Probably also once these annoying quarantines are lifted.
Indeed, in the last month of vacation I took 10 flights. If air travel is doomed, at least I could say goodbye. A bit less cynic, 4 flights were with companies that asked for government loans, and six of them with a company that restructured its debt with bond investors. Either government officials or private investors are betting on a recovery.

Yes, 10 day quarantine is not good (still 8 to go), but not traveling would have been worst.
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Old 06.08.2020, 17:52
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Re: Coronavirus

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I'd take the HCQ if it was offered.
This study is very recent.
HCQ is allowed as a COVID_19 treatment in Switzerland, see here.
Maybe you should try it as a prophylactic?
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  #11379  
Old 06.08.2020, 18:17
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Re: Coronavirus

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So in summary, the USA's retirement capital has been hard hit by a virus that largely impacts older populations?

I'll try not to get to Florida any time soon. But I can't fly there, and by the time I might be able to, there'll be 1 airline flying a clapped out 20 year old A350 for extortionate prices.
You're expecting the US to be closed until 2034? The first A350 delivery was in 2014; first commercial flight in January 2015.

In any case, are you not aware that in Florida -- now with more than half a million cases of COVID-19 (yay! 2nd place in the US, go Florida!) -- the median age of people testing positive to coronavirus is 40? 40. Not 90. And the largest ten-year age band of SARS-COV-2-positive people is the 25-34 age group, with 100,000 in that group alone. Not exactly retirement age.

So it's quite lucky you can't get to Florida at the moment, don't you think?
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Old 06.08.2020, 18:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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HCQ is allowed as a COVID_19 treatment in Switzerland, see here.
Maybe you should try it as a prophylactic?
What's HCQ?
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