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Old 15.09.2020, 13:29
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Re: Coronavirus

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Bamboozled.

"You don't appear to understand how science works."

"You should read Jeremy Clarkson..."

WTAF?!!!!
Someone else who didn't read the piece
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  #12642  
Old 15.09.2020, 13:33
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Re: Coronavirus

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Well, CH is now high-risk area for the virus https://www.thelocal.ch/20200915/cor...high-risk-area
Thanks for that link.

Did you notice the QAnon idiots' flag in the photo? Particularly pertinent after Alain Berset's recent interview and he's bloody right. QAnon buffoons are behind a lot of the scepticism. If they had a brain cell between them, they'd be dangerous, but you get Z list 'celebs' who are thick as pig poop syphoning this crap into the mainstream.

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“It’s clear that a movement is being built here against our fact-driven and democratic society,” Berset told SonntagsZeitung in a lengthy interview on Sunday.

On Saturday, an anti-corona demo in Geneva attracted 1,000 protesters. This follows a similar, but smaller, rally in German-speaking Switzerland the previous weekend.

Corona sceptics in Switzerland are a mixed group - a “noisy minority” - with diverse ideologies coming together, including “rightwing extremists, radical anti-vaccination campaigners and obscure conspiracy theorists”, said Berset.

“Some of the anti-corona movement seems to be imported from abroad,” he declared, explaining that he had seen examples of anti-corona videos in Switzerland which originated from Germany and the United States.
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-h...ement/46030358

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I guess it also depends how easy it is to obtain a test. Here it is easy, so no excuses. But looking at some other developed countries ex England where people have to stand in line for hours & hours for a walk in or beeing sent several miles across the country for a testing center.
Heard yesterday of people in Northern Ireland being told the nearest centre with tests available was in Scotland. https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/b...vised-18900676
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  #12643  
Old 15.09.2020, 13:38
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Re: Coronavirus

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Someone else who didn't read the piece
And won't be reading the piece in a month of Sundays.

Never liked the man. Find him to be a great lummoxing, boorish oaf so have absolutely zero interest in his views on anything except cars (he did a particularly good review of the Mazda rx8 once )
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  #12644  
Old 15.09.2020, 14:17
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Re: Coronavirus

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Bamboozled.

"You don't appear to understand how science works."

"You should read Jeremy Clarkson..."

WTAF?!!!!
Clarkson is in reality a very clever man acting the fool.

As opposed to Boris who is a fool acting the fool.
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  #12645  
Old 15.09.2020, 14:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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And won't be reading the piece in a month of Sundays.

Never liked the man. Find him to be a great lummoxing, boorish oaf so have absolutely zero interest in his views on anything except cars (he did a particularly good review of the Mazda rx8 once )
Then don't pass judgement until you've read it. This is basic stuff!
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  #12646  
Old 15.09.2020, 14:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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Jeremy Clarkson made the very valid argument that it's dangerous to "follow the science" when the science isn't even agreed upon!
Tony, you're your own worst enemy! Clarkson is a journalist, entertainer and, yes, polemicist. He has no scientific qualifications or experience whatsoever; in fact, apart from his O levels, he has no qualifications at all! He didn't even sit his A levels at school—and you quote him as some sort of authority, and a guide to "how science works"?

You keep on listening to people totally ignorant about the subject, people with no knowledge or understanding of science such as Clarkson and Trump. I'll stick with facts. And no doubt we'll continue to disagree.
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  #12647  
Old 15.09.2020, 14:35
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Re: Coronavirus

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Someone else who didn't read the piece
Since it requires a subscription to do so I won’t be reading it either.
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  #12648  
Old 15.09.2020, 14:39
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Re: Coronavirus

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Clarkson is in reality a very clever man acting the fool.

As opposed to Boris who is a fool acting the fool.
Your first is a matter of opinion.
Your second...very unfortuately...is a matter of fact.
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  #12649  
Old 15.09.2020, 14:47
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Re: Coronavirus

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Your first is a matter of opinion.
Your second...very unfortuately...is a matter of fact.
He's a top class journalist. Idiots don't have the extended period of success he's had in that field.

Do you think people writing for the Sun, the Mirror etc. actually hold the views they are expressing? Almost certainly not. Its a skill to appeal to the masses, and he possesses it in spades.

He isn't really a neanderthal at all. It's a careful act. Occasionally he lets his guard down - like when he pretty much openly campaigned for remain in the 2016 referendum.
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  #12650  
Old 15.09.2020, 14:54
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Re: Coronavirus

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Then don't pass judgement until you've read it. This is basic stuff!
There's a free version with lots of quotes here https://www.express.co.uk/celebrity-...is-Whitty-news

Jeremy Clarkson, scientist, says you can never get hold of it (science) properly:

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Jeremy went on to say in his column for The Sunday Times that scientific research on the virus may not be completely reliable. He said: “Boris really did say, very often, that following the science was the right thing to do. This means people are bound to ask: ‘So why isn’t it the right thing to do now?’ “I’ll tell you why. Following science is a fool’s errand, because science is like mercury. You can never quite get hold of it properly.”
Imagine a ship sailing on a storm and a sailor yelling loudly that he cannot understand how the compass works, therefore the captain is wrong. As comedy I give it 10/10.
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  #12651  
Old 15.09.2020, 14:59
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Re: Coronavirus

The site I was looking at most often reset their counters on 1st June, which initially made it hard to tell where things were going. But it wasn't a bad measure since that's when life started getting back to a new normal.

It's been 15 weeks since the reset, how are we doing here in CH compared to the favorite "winner" Sweden?

Worldometers shows the following:
New Covid cases in Sweden since 1st June - 48,044
New Covid cases in Switzerland since 1st June - 16,575

New Covid deaths in Sweden since 1st June - 1,174
New Covid deaths in Switzerland since 1st June - 105

I'd say the Swiss are overall doing things right and enough people are complying with the rules to keep it manageable. The virus is hanging around but we're not overwhelming our healthcare system. It will be interesting to see if they keep the plans for large attendance at sporting events on 1st October.
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  #12652  
Old 15.09.2020, 15:24
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Re: Coronavirus

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He's a top class journalist.
Well that's setting the bar lower than a snake's belly
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  #12653  
Old 15.09.2020, 15:38
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Re: Coronavirus

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Tony, you're your own worst enemy! Clarkson is a journalist, entertainer and, yes, polemicist. He has no scientific qualifications or experience whatsoever; in fact, apart from his O levels, he has no qualifications at all! He didn't even sit his A levels at school—and you quote him as some sort of authority, and a guide to "how science works"?

You keep on listening to people totally ignorant about the subject, people with no knowledge or understanding of science such as Clarkson and Trump. I'll stick with facts. And no doubt we'll continue to disagree.
Have you read the piece? One doesn't have to be a scientist to understand how science works! Jeremy Clarkson has just simply warned of the risks of blindly following "the science" when a) the science isn't agreed upon and b) the science can change.

The science has changed! (see Mask recommendation)
The science isn't agreed upon! (see Sweden)

The facts currently show coronavirus cases increasing but hospitalisations and deaths barely moving. How about you stick to those facts?!
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  #12654  
Old 15.09.2020, 16:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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Have you read the piece? One doesn't have to be a scientist to understand how science works! Jeremy Clarkson has just simply warned of the risks of blindly following "the science" when a) the science isn't agreed upon and b) the science can change.

The science has changed! (see Mask recommendation)
The science isn't agreed upon! (see Sweden)

The facts currently show coronavirus cases increasing but hospitalisations and deaths barely moving. How about you stick to those facts?!
This is terribly confusing. You don't want to blindly follow "the science" because it "can change"? Again, you're ignoring facts. Science is fact-based. As more information and knowledge (facts) accumulate, richer insights become available—at least, to scientists who are prepared to consider all the facts available, not to those people with no scientific training who cling to one view and refuse to budge from it, despite all the evidence. Certainly, conclusions change. We can only work with the best information and conclusions available at the given moment.

Alternatively, one could grab a random belief out of one's posterior and—blindly—stick to it forever, completely ignoring the accumulation of overwhelming evidence that indicates that one is wrong.

Perhaps you understand now why the advice on the use of masks for this pandemic changed. It was an evidence-based decision. I'm very sorry if that doesn't accord with your personal, unsupported stance. (I think, also, that you are confusing yourself by viewing early stated government policies on masks as "the science" when in fact they were purely politically driven, designed to conserve low stocks of PPE.)

As for lack of agreement, there will always be some scientists who fail in their responsibility to act solely on evidence, or who conduct flawed science—for example, by using incomplete or skewed data. One needs to adopt a meta approach to get the full picture by considering ALL of "the science" and not to fixate, for example, solely on the failure of one outspoken zoological professor to have her flawed work published.
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  #12655  
Old 15.09.2020, 16:26
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Re: Coronavirus

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The site I was looking at most often reset their counters on 1st June, which initially made it hard to tell where things were going. But it wasn't a bad measure since that's when life started getting back to a new normal.

It's been 15 weeks since the reset, how are we doing here in CH compared to the favorite "winner" Sweden?

Worldometers shows the following:
New Covid cases in Sweden since 1st June - 48,044
New Covid cases in Switzerland since 1st June - 16,575

New Covid deaths in Sweden since 1st June - 1,174
New Covid deaths in Switzerland since 1st June - 105

I'd say the Swiss are overall doing things right and enough people are complying with the rules to keep it manageable. The virus is hanging around but we're not overwhelming our healthcare system. It will be interesting to see if they keep the plans for large attendance at sporting events on 1st October.
For reference, Sweden's population is about 16% more than Switzerland's, which in no way accounts for the massive differences in new cases and new deaths between the two countries.
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Old 15.09.2020, 16:28
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Re: Coronavirus

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For reference, Sweden's population is about 16% more than Switzerland's, which in no way accounts for the massive differences in new cases and new deaths between the two countries.
Thanks for doing the maths on that, I was too lazy. I only know they've had 10x the deaths as CH in the last 15 weeks, and they don't have 10x the population.
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Old 15.09.2020, 16:29
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Re: Coronavirus

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For reference, Sweden's population is about 16% more than Switzerland's, which in no way accounts for the massive differences in new cases and new deaths between the two countries.
But... but... people like V___ and TonyClifton told us that Sweden was "doingthemostamazingperfectcovidcontrol"? Are you saying that they were... gasp... talking out of their... rear orifices?

I'm... like... so shocked.
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  #12658  
Old 15.09.2020, 16:54
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Re: Coronavirus

TBH its a bit tiresome seeing people quote deaths in the first wave as the primary judge of success of Sweden's strategy. Not because I disagree with your view on the best way forward, just because I'm not sure you are basing it on a fair set of metrics.

I personally do not think that the Sweden approach will prove to be particularly beneficial in economic terms when this is all over, and I think it will almost certainly will look bad in deaths, but:

- Their strategy is to get it over and done with early. We are still in early days. If the second wave ends up reaching herd immunity before the vaccine arrives Sweden probably wins in economic terms and isn't any worse off with deaths (I would have thought this is quite unlikely)

- If Sweden doesn't suffer a second wave and everyone else does they might do better economically.

Let's just wait and see before we judge anything. As I said, I largely agree with the Sweden skeptics, but its not over yet. You are judging the results of a marathon based on who is infront after 10km. I'm certainly not willing to definitively say they are wrong yet.
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Old 15.09.2020, 17:19
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Re: Coronavirus

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Thanks for doing the maths on that, I was too lazy. I only know they've had 10x the deaths as CH in the last 15 weeks, and they don't have 10x the population.
And they are lifting the ban for the visits to the nursery homes only on Oct 1. Does that mean that poor old Swedes could not see their relatives for half a year?
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  #12660  
Old 15.09.2020, 17:32
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Re: Coronavirus

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Have you read the piece? One doesn't have to be a scientist to understand how science works! Jeremy Clarkson has just simply warned of the risks of blindly following "the science" when a) the science isn't agreed upon and b) the science can change.

The science has changed! (see Mask recommendation)
The science isn't agreed upon! (see Sweden)

The facts currently show coronavirus cases increasing but hospitalisations and deaths barely moving. How about you stick to those facts?!
Ah, the anti scientist cherry-picking and grabbing at every fragile straw that blows past in the wind.

Even the master anti scientist Trump admitted on tape back in February " It's also more deadly than even your strenuous flus."

Since Monday, September 14th, Switzerland is now officially a high-risk country according to its own criteria.
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