Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Family matters/health  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 25.01.2020, 02:59
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 2
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
goffredo has no particular reputation at present
Losing Heimatort when chaing surname for marriage?

Hi gang,


I'm a US citizen engaged to be married to my fiancee, who is a Swiss and US citizen and holds both passports.



She has her late father's last name, and her father's Heimatort is Canton Uri (Urnerboden). Because it's his Heimtaort, he was able to purchase a cabin on the co-op area of Urnerboden, which she stands to inherit from her mother.



If she changes her surname upon marriage (i.e., she takes my last name), she is worried that she will lose her father's Heimatort, and more importantly, will have to give up that family cabin in Urnerboden. Does anyone know if this is true?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 25.01.2020, 03:34
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 12,637
Groaned at 206 Times in 171 Posts
Thanked 14,452 Times in 7,469 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Losing Heimatort when chaing surname for marriage?

Quote:
View Post
Hi gang,


I'm a US citizen engaged to be married to my fiancee, who is a Swiss and US citizen and holds both passports.



She has her late father's last name, and her father's Heimatort is Canton Uri (Urnerboden). Because it's his Heimtaort, he was able to purchase a cabin on the co-op area of Urnerboden, which she stands to inherit from her mother.



If she changes her surname upon marriage (i.e., she takes my last name), she is worried that she will lose her father's Heimatort, and more importantly, will have to give up that family cabin in Urnerboden. Does anyone know if this is true?
Just like she will keep being Swiss after marrying you and taking your name, her Heimatort will stay Urnerboden. Had to google that place, LOL. Wow, the biggest "Alp" of Switzerland, that was a lack in my general education.

"Alp" can't seem to be translated. It's hilltop pastures and it's agricultural buildings, only used in summer. "Kirchweiler Unterboden" is a small settlement where people live all year around. As it politically belongs to Spiringen, that might be the Heimatort in her passport?

That was either too much information or you knew it all already. Sorry, some questions lead to interesting info.

Long story short: She will keep the cabin in spite of marrying and taking your name.
__________________
It Ain’t What You Don’t Know That Gets You Into Trouble. It’s What You Know for Sure That Just Ain’t So
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 25.01.2020, 04:55
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Losing Heimatort when chaing surname for marriage?

As stated, no (of course) she wouldn't "lose" her Heimatort if she marries you and takes your surname. She would, however, enter a whole world of pain (if she's not in it yet) if she comes to live in Switzerland as a US citizen (actually, your world as a solely US citizen would probably be more painful).

Did you stop to think that just maybe your fiancée is happy to marry you but doesn't want to become Mrs Goffredo and would rather just stay Ms Née?

By the way, if you're thinking about moving to Switzerland to live in the Alpine hut at some point, I suggest you check out the threads here on registering foreign marriages (although if your fiancée has never lived in Switzerland, it's unlikely to be much of an issue for you).
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 25.01.2020, 08:29
Island Monkey's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Wallis
Posts: 5,738
Groaned at 95 Times in 60 Posts
Thanked 6,292 Times in 2,881 Posts
Island Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Losing Heimatort when chaing surname for marriage?

Quote:

Did you stop to think that just maybe your fiancée is happy to marry you but doesn't want to become Mrs Goffredo and would rather just stay Ms Née?
This!!!
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Island Monkey for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 25.01.2020, 08:42
swisspea's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: From one side of lake Zurich to the other...
Posts: 6,242
Groaned at 39 Times in 29 Posts
Thanked 6,261 Times in 2,890 Posts
swisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Losing Heimatort when chaing surname for marriage?

She can hold both citizenships...and as for changing her name... I'm pretty sure she's not required to do that, whether she gets married or not...



I looked it up for you. Under Swiss law...since 2013 the default position in Swiss marriage is that both spouses keep their own names. https://www.ch.ch/en/married-name/


If you want, you can change names... but it's not required.... she can still marry you and not change her name. That's her choice...



And under US law there is no obligation whatsoever for her to change her surname either.



Regardless of inheritance or not, she would need to actually apply to change her name under Swiss law. She does not need to change her passport etc.



Where it will come up again as an issue is with children. You'll need to have this decision again before you have children... and check again what the options are and procedures for USA and Switzerland...



So, easy option, get married, but don't change her name...
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 25.01.2020, 11:53
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: VD
Posts: 312
Groaned at 48 Times in 31 Posts
Thanked 267 Times in 126 Posts
bugger has annoyed a few people around herebugger has annoyed a few people around herebugger has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Losing Heimatort when chaing surname for marriage?

Way to go EF, you've just blown the poor girl's excuse to not change her last name :P
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank bugger for this useful post:
This user groans at bugger for this post:
  #7  
Old 25.01.2020, 17:17
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,783
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Losing Heimatort when chaing surname for marriage?

tl;tr; The name of the wife is not important. She will keep her Heimatort. But the name of the children is important in case both parents are Swiss and the parents have a different Heimatort.

If one has the Swiss citizenship one has also a Swiss Heimatort. Neither is possible without the other. For the math freaks: it is an if and only if relationship. A Swiss can have more than one Heimatort, but a Swiss can not have none Heimatort. Heimatort is commonly translated as "Place of Origin", a better translation in my opinion is "Town of Citizenship".

One has to understand that the Swiss citizenship is threefold. One becomes a citizen of a Swiss town, this town becomes the Heimatort, because the town is part of a canton one also gets the citizenship of the canton, and finally because the canton is part of the Swiss confederation one gets also the federal Swiss citizenship.

How to lose your Heimatort
Simpel: If you have multiple Heimatorte you simply relinquish one.
Or if you have multiple nationalities you relinquish the Swiss citizenship whereby you lose all of your Heimatort.

In the past it was indeed possible that a woman which married could lose her Heimatort. Three ways were possible:

First, if a Swiss woman married a foreigner and acquired the husbands citizenship she lost the Swiss citizenship. This was later relaxed that the woman could keep the Swiss citizenship upon request. The current rule is that the woman keeps her Swiss citizenship by default but can relinquish it if she wishes.

The second possibility how a woman could have lost her Heimatort was by marriage with a Swiss. In this case the woman lost her Heimatort and acquired the Heimatort of her husband. The current rule is, that both spouses keep their Heimatort.

A third possibility was if the foreign husband acquired Swiss citizenship in an other town then the town of the wife's Heimatort the wife lost her Heimatort and got the Heimatort of the husband. Just like when she had married a Swiss (see above). This was later changed to that the woman keeps her own Heimatort and in addition gets her husband's Heimatort as well. The current rule is that the woman just keeps her own Heimatort and cannot in addition acquire the husband's Heimatort.


Names and Heimatort:
The name the woman chooses has no, and as far as I know had never an, influence on her Heimatort.

BUT, and that might be important:
If both parents are Swiss the children will get the Heimatort of the parent from which they have the surname/family name! If only one parent is Swiss they will logically get the Heimatort of the Swiss parent.

A foreign spouse can acquire the Swiss citizenship by two possible ways:
The regular route: In this case they will get as the Heimatort the town were they applied for citizenship.
The facilitated route due to marriage: In this case they will get as the Heimatort the Heimatort of the Swiss spouse.
If the foreign spouse has been in Switzerland for a long time it is possible that it is faster to get Swiss citizenship through the regular route. This might lead to a different Heimatort for wife and husband and the importance of the children's name if the Heimatort of one partner should be kept in the family.

Sources:
Current situation: Federal Act on Swiss Citizenship https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...990/index.html
Historic: SEM Handbook and Information on Citicenship https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/de/home...rgerrecht.html
__________________
On Hiatus- Normal operation will resume 22.02.2022 22:02:20.22
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 25.01.2020, 17:29
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 31,582
Groaned at 2,354 Times in 1,712 Posts
Thanked 38,380 Times in 18,113 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Losing Heimatort when chaing surname for marriage?

She will not lose her Heimatort, rather she will add yours as a second one (if you are Swiss).

My wife thus has two, but her main one is mine, and all family records are kept there.

My wife chose to take my surname as it was cooler than hers, which was not particularly Swiss (despite her father being a prominent Swiss artist) as her great-grandfather was a political refugee from what is now Poland in the 1860s, and thus gave the family surname.

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user groans at st2lemans for this post:
  #9  
Old 25.01.2020, 17:39
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,783
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Losing Heimatort when chaing surname for marriage?

Quote:
View Post
She will not lose her Heimatort, rather she will add yours as a second one (if you are Swiss).
No longer possible.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 25.01.2020, 17:43
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 31,582
Groaned at 2,354 Times in 1,712 Posts
Thanked 38,380 Times in 18,113 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Losing Heimatort when chaing surname for marriage?

Quote:
View Post
No longer possible.
When did that change? (we got married in 2011)

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 25.01.2020, 17:46
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,783
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Losing Heimatort when chaing surname for marriage?

Quote:
View Post
When did that change? (we got married in 2011)
Not 100% sure, but I think it came with the new citizenship law. In force since January 1st 2018.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 25.01.2020, 18:11
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 31,582
Groaned at 2,354 Times in 1,712 Posts
Thanked 38,380 Times in 18,113 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Losing Heimatort when chaing surname for marriage?

Pity, it makes life easier as I only have to deal with one Heimatort now.

(I had to deal with my wife's on her behalf, as she doesn't do German, I guess that her father used to do it for her)

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 25.01.2020, 20:00
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 12,637
Groaned at 206 Times in 171 Posts
Thanked 14,452 Times in 7,469 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Losing Heimatort when chaing surname for marriage?

Quote:
View Post
Pity, it makes life easier as I only have to deal with one Heimatort now.

(I had to deal with my wife's on her behalf, as she doesn't do German, I guess that her father used to do it for her)

Tom
You deal with your Heimatort? About what?? LOL.

I never talked/had anything to do with mine.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 25.01.2020, 22:05
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 31,582
Groaned at 2,354 Times in 1,712 Posts
Thanked 38,380 Times in 18,113 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Losing Heimatort when chaing surname for marriage?

Quote:
View Post
You deal with your Heimatort? About what?? LOL.

I never talked/had anything to do with mine.
Papers for marriage, death, etc.

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 25.01.2020, 22:30
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 12,637
Groaned at 206 Times in 171 Posts
Thanked 14,452 Times in 7,469 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Losing Heimatort when chaing surname for marriage?

Quote:
View Post
Papers for marriage, death, etc.

Tom
Did all that where I lived.

Okay, haven't died yet. I'll report again then.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank curley for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 26.01.2020, 00:01
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 7,783
Groaned at 89 Times in 70 Posts
Thanked 11,923 Times in 4,840 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Losing Heimatort when chaing surname for marriage?

Quote:
View Post
BUT, and that might be important:
If both parents are Swiss the children will get the Heimatort of the parent from which they have the surname/family name!
Does this mean that married parents who each has their own last name are now allowed to CHOOSE whether the child will have the father's last name or the mother's last name? Friends of mine wanted their new baby to have the mother's last/surname, but were told that it was not possible and that the child MUST have the last name of the father.

That was a few years ago, though.
I'd be interested to know how this has changed.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 26.01.2020, 01:26
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,783
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Losing Heimatort when chaing surname for marriage?

Quote:
View Post
Does this mean that married parents who each has their own last name are now allowed to CHOOSE whether the child will have the father's last name or the mother's last name?
[...]
I'd be interested to know how this has changed.
Correct.

How and why, see:
https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/federal-.../2009/7573.pdf

Current rule (since 2013) is outlined in Art. 270 Swiss Civil Code
Quote:
I. Child of married parents

1 Where the parents are married to each other but bear different surnames, the child takes the surname that the parents decided would be given to their children when they married.

2 Within one year of the birth of their first child, the parents may request that the child take the surname of the other parent.

3 If the parents bear a joint family name, the child takes that name.
The previous rule was:
Quote:
If the parents are married the child takes the family name.

So what is the family name?

consider
Miss Maria Hösli
and
Mr. Emil Ganzoni
which are getting married, the names after marriage can be:

A) (possible at least since 1907)
Mrs Maria Ganzoni
and
Mr. Emil Ganzoni
Official family name is Ganzoni.
They can use unofficially Ganzoni-Hösli as their alliance familiy name.

B) (possible since 2013)
Mrs Maria Hösli
and
Mr. Emil Ganzoni
There is no official family name. At time of marriage they must chose which of the two names the children will have.
They can use unofficially Ganzoni-Hösli or Hösli-Ganzoni as their alliance familiy name.

C) (possible since 2013, since 1994 upon request, in some cantons was also possible since 1988)
Mrs Maria Hösli
and
Mr. Emil Hösli
Official family name is Hösli.
They can use unofficially Hösli-Ganzoni as their alliance familiy name.

D) (possible when married between 1988 to end of 2012)
Mrs Maria Hösli Ganzoni
and
Mr. Emil Ganzoni
Maria can call herself unofficially just Mrs Maria Hösli
Official family name is Ganzoni.

E) (possible when married between 1994 to end of 2012, in some cantons was also possible since 1988)
Mrs Maria Hösli
and
Mr. Emil Ganzoni Hösli
Emil can call himself unofficially just Mr. Emil Ganzoni
Official family name is Hösli.

All those married before 2013 can opt for the new B) version.
The alliance family name, even if it is unofficial, can be entered as the surname in passport and ID.

Quote:
View Post
Friends of mine wanted their new baby to have the mother's last/surname, but were told that it was not possible and that the child MUST have the last name of the father.
I assume it was not possible because: The marriage was before 2013, they have chosen option D), and the child was also born before 2013.
__________________
On Hiatus- Normal operation will resume 22.02.2022 22:02:20.22

Last edited by aSwissInTheUS; 26.01.2020 at 12:17.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 26.01.2020, 01:41
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,783
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Losing Heimatort when chaing surname for marriage?

Quote:
View Post
She has her late father's last name, and her father's Heimatort is Canton Uri (Urnerboden).
And important thing. Next the Heimatort and the citizenship of the town there might be an other citizenship: The cooperative citizenship (Kooperationsbürgerrecht). The biggest cooperation is the cooperation Uri. In its law it says that the cooperation citizenship is neither lost nor acquired by marriage. Logically nothing is written about the name.
https://www.korporation.ch/fileadmin...ration_uri.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 28.01.2020, 18:04
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 2
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
goffredo has no particular reputation at present
Re: Losing Heimatort when chaing surname for marriage?

Apparently I forgot to enable email notifications, and had only just now visited this thread to see all the great responses! Thanks!

Quote:
View Post
Long story short: She will keep the cabin in spite of marrying and taking your name.
Yep seems to be the consensus!

Quote:
She would, however, enter a whole world of pain (if she's not in it yet) if she comes to live in Switzerland as a US citizen (actually, your world as a solely US citizen would probably be more painful).

Did you stop to think that just maybe your fiancée is happy to marry you but doesn't want to become Mrs Goffredo and would rather just stay Ms Née
She is both a Swiss and US citizen, and has lived many years in both places (grew up in California, got her architect's degree in Zurich, worked as an architect in Bern, worked as an architect in Seattle). I'm not sure why she would be in a world of pain?

And of course we considered whether or not to change last names. In fact, that is precisely why I posted this message, to gather all the facts.

Quote:
View Post
And important thing. Next the Heimatort and the citizenship of the town there might be an other citizenship: The cooperative citizenship (Kooperationsbürgerrecht). The biggest cooperation is the cooperation Uri. In its law it says that the cooperation citizenship is neither lost nor acquired by marriage. Logically nothing is written about the name.
https://www.korporation.ch/fileadmin...ration_uri.pdf
Wow thanks for the great and detailed information! The rechtsbuch for Uri Corp is deliciously Swiss, with such gems as "Regulation on the limitation of the number of cows in the Ruosalp". Of course they have a regulation for this!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 28.01.2020, 18:18
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Losing Heimatort when chaing surname for marriage?

Quote:
View Post
No longer possible.
I got wed last year in October, I kept my own, the one of my Ex and was asked at the Civil Registry office (Zivilstandsamt) if I'd like to add the one of my 2nd husband as a third Heimatort......
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Heimatort Spinal Permits/visas/government 37 27.01.2020 19:42
Indian Passport : Surname change post marriage Amrita_s General off-topic 1 21.05.2015 09:59
Heimatort - Family History Helena77 Family matters/health 11 06.11.2014 18:16
Heimatort for naturalized citizens Lejoker Permits/visas/government 9 10.04.2011 16:29
heimatort for 15 chf anywhere in switzerland juice99 Transportation/driving 0 27.07.2009 16:37


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:11.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0