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Old 03.05.2020, 02:52
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Advices asked for: trying to find......

Good day everyone at EF.

Iíve read whatís already been posted here without any success. So Iíd like to appeal to the wider forum and ask if anyone has any advices or experiences as regards finding a person in Switzerland?

After a brutal divorce some years ago I left the country. My ex-wife was a firm advocate and practiser of hostile-aggressive parenting and this has resulted in me losing all contact with my daughter. She will now be nearly 16.

I knew where she used to live, with her Mother, but this is no more the case. I have tried looking for her on Google, social media, websites and just about anywhere I can think of but nothing, as if she doesnít exist. Same her Mother, just some old stuffs from some years ago. So far, the only thing I have found is one group photo with my daughter in it, going back some 14 months ago.

Iím fully aware of privacy rights in CH and also that itís very possible that the reason for losing contact is that my daughter wants nothing to do with me. My last email to her was answered by an adult as if it were her replying so yes, very possibly.

I really do not want to intrude, spy on, stalk or do anything of that nature - Iím long out of CH now, I will not be returning and my only interest is to know that my daughter is ok, safe and well. As far as I am concerned she doesnít even necessarily need to know Iíve tried to find her.

As you will imagine, as a father this situation is difficult to come to terms with.

Anyways, I am reaching out to you all. Perhaps you have some advices or even just pearls of wisdom to impart. Iíd be grateful.

Thank you in advance,

SS.

P.S In advance and to save any potential questions you may have:
I donít have any Court stay away orders or restrictions of that kind
I donít have any form of custody
I donít have visitation rights
If Iíve missed any more obvious stuffs in the above, please let me know. Thank you.
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Old 03.05.2020, 05:43
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Re: Advices asked for: trying to find......

If you left the country and voluntarily gave up all of your rights then I am not surprised that she doesn't want to see you. For all intents and purposes you basically abandoned her. How many years is "some years ago", has she basically grown up without you?

Your best and as far as I can see only route to your daughter here is to try and make some reparations with the mother first, because until your daughter becomes an adult she is the legal guardian and controls access to and heavily influences your daughter.
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Old 03.05.2020, 08:23
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Re: Advices asked for: trying to find......

@Chuff: Some info before shooting from the hip, full story here: https://www.englishforum.ch/3045285-post48.html

It begins:
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I separated in late 2015 and was divorced in early 2016...
It then goes on to explain exactly how he lost visitation rights, and how the system apparently was manipulated to work against him in every way.
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Old 03.05.2020, 09:09
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Re: Advices asked for: trying to find......

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@Chuff: Some info before shooting from the hip, full story here: https://www.englishforum.ch/3045285-post48.html

It begins:

It then goes on to explain exactly how he lost visitation rights, and how the system apparently was manipulated to work against him in every way.
He did not "lose" his visitation rights, he gave them up voluntarily under advisement from his lawyers (first warning flag) to avoid potential criminal charges (second warning flag) for abuse. Why would a man fear that kind of accusation without good reason or without fighting it to the biter end if it was false? His daughter was 14 years old at the time, did she not speak her mind about all of this? All we have to go on is a story that his ex is evil and has done all of this to spite him as a stereotypical "woman scorned". How did he scorn her and what did he do to make her go so utterly ballistic?

I realise you guys are a sucker for online sob stories that bring out your inner samaritan natures and a default stance of blind trust in the fluffy goodness of human nature, but for all we know the truth may be completely different and I would be wary of helping anyone anonymous on the internet to get in contact with or locate a minor outside of official channels and against their and their guardians consent (third warning flag).

There are only two logical routes to enabling contact with his daughter: 1) through proper legal channels and/or 2) through his ex-wife.

Last edited by Chuff; 03.05.2020 at 11:09. Reason: Typos and legibility
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Old 03.05.2020, 09:20
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Re: Advices asked for: trying to find......

OP, if you think you've tried every avenue available easily to yourself, and you really want to find either your ex wife or your daughter, I wonder if a private detective could help?
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Old 03.05.2020, 09:58
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Re: Advices asked for: trying to find......

There are always two sides and we know nothing of the full story so impssible to make judgements. I would have thought that the courts would be well used to angry parents making unfounded accusations to get back at the other party and would not just accept there had been child abuse without a full investigation especially when a 14 year old is able to refute the accusations. Why would any lawyer recommend giving up all rights to the child based only on hearsay?
If you want to see your daughter or, at least find out how she is doing, you should do so through a new lawyer and the courts. Are you still paying financial support?

Why has it taken you 4 years? Given the length of time since you last saw her, in her eyes, she may feel you have abandoned her.
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Old 03.05.2020, 10:03
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Re: Advices asked for: trying to find......

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OP, if you think you've tried every avenue available easily to yourself, and you really want to find either your ex wife or your daughter, I wonder if a private detective could help?

Would there not be rules to prohibit private detectives searching for a minor child on behalf of a parent who has no rights. Not that I am saying for a minute that is the case with OP, but sometimes there are really good reasons for the custodial parent to be in hiding from the non-custodial one.
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Old 03.05.2020, 10:55
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Re: Advices asked for: trying to find......

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@Chuff: Some info before shooting from the hip, full story here: https://www.englishforum.ch/3045285-post48.html

It begins:


It then goes on to explain exactly how he lost visitation rights, and how the system apparently was manipulated to work against him in every way.
It does not seem to add up.... per the link you posted, there are still outstanding court cases and financial payments due to the wife and child...

It's kind of hard to imagine, they'd use disappear without a trace and leave the cash on the table at a minimum... perhaps there is good reasons why they decided that they don't want to be found, they have the legal right to do so.
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Old 03.05.2020, 11:13
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Re: Advices asked for: trying to find......

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He did not "lose" his visitation rights, he gave them up voluntarily under advisement from his lawyers (first warning flag) to avoid potential criminal charges (second warning flag) for abuse. Why would a man fear that kind of accusation without good reason or without fighting it to the biter end if it was false? His daughter was 14 years old at the time, did she not speak her mind about all of this? All we have to go on is a story that his ex is evil and has done all of this to spite him as a stereotypical "woman scorned". How did he scorn her and what did he do to make her go so utterly ballistic?
These are good and very valid points.

In answer answer to those - as I really do not want to be labelled a child abuser nor have any suggestion that itís an embellished sob story and also because you could not readily make this stuff up:

Firstly about visitation rights. Yes I did give them up voluntarily. When you are accused of something so terrible, you do not know what is going to be raised by your exís lawyer. That remains confidential until the hearing. Fortunately it turned out that the accusation was about me not taking enough of the visitation (because I was busy travelling the globe) trying to earn the money to pay the divorce settlement. I was also clearly asked by the judge if I understood what I was doing and what the implications could be, i.e. that I might never ever see my daughter again but that I could reapply for visitation if I changed my mind. I said yes.

Secondly, my girl was my girl asked about this, yes, although she did not make such serious allegations as abuse and school in the UK meant that she was not present at the court hearing. Again, the challenge is that you do not know what is going to be raised against you until you are in the courtroom. But you also have to ensure that this cannot be repeated a second time, so really, what other options do you have?

Thirdly, I had an affair with the lady I am now with. Do this kind of stuffs and there are going to be consequences.

i donít expect suggestions, but any would be welcome. I would also agree with you: be suspicious, raise the flags and there is no validating what I have written either here in my previous post. That previous post isnít meant as a sob story only a warning to anyone in a similar boat to where I found myself. Sh*t happens.

Yes, correct, follow the proper process: Option for me: I can also go back and ask for visitation rights but as I am not in CH I realistically could not exercise them and besides, it really is better for my daughter that she has just one parent guiding her (good or bad in this sense) Than to be subjected to the pain, agony and split loyalties of 2 parents engaging in open warfare. Thatís not right either. Also, I could follow the proper channels only I do not want to poke a rattlesnake with a stick nor do I want to know anything more other than my daughter is ok. She has all the means to contact me but doesnít so this should be a good gauge of the temperature of the water so to speak.

Perhaps sound advice would also be SUMO (Shut Up, Move On) right?

Many thanks for taking the time to read, I appreciate it.

SS
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Old 03.05.2020, 11:21
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Re: Advices asked for: trying to find......

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Perhaps sound advice would also be SUMO (Shut Up, Move On) right?
You lost contact with your kid, you will never 'move on' and neither will she (fully), but doing anything that is not by the book would likely cause more harm than good to any chances of getting back in contact with her.

As for all your details, not knowing the validity of any of them, I can't comment except to say that I still don't see how the false accusations against you could be upheld as the daughter would have been questioned.
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Old 03.05.2020, 11:35
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Re: Advices asked for: trying to find......

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As for all your details, not knowing the validity of any of them, I can't comment except to say that I still don't see how the false accusations against you could be upheld as the daughter would have been questioned.
They were not upheld they were spurious and the judge asked why ex was really in court. Ex repliedĒto force him to take visitation rights when I want him toĒ. Judge replied she could not force visitation rights (unlike in some countries). Daughter was indeed questioned by the social services (I understood) and alleged that I did not take care of her properly which was disproved.

Appreciate the beginning of your reply, i will take it on board.

SS
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Old 03.05.2020, 11:57
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Re: Advices asked for: trying to find......

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They were not upheld they were spurious and the judge asked why ex was really in court. Ex replied”to force him to take visitation rights when I want him to”. Judge replied she could not force visitation rights (unlike in some countries). Daughter was indeed questioned by the social services (I understood) and alleged that I did not take care of her properly which was disproved.

Appreciate the beginning of your reply, i will take it on board.

SS
If these false allegations were not upheld and were spurious, then why did you give up all visitation rights? You said your lawyers advised you to do so to avoid criminal charges... why would legal experts, who had presumably examined all of the evidence, do this based on spurious and untenable charges unless they had a good reason to be cautious? What were you so afraid of that you would knowingly give up rights to see and visit your daughter, possibly (as you were fully informed by the judge) permanently?

It just doesn't make logical sense and the inconsistencies in your story are very apparent.
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Old 03.05.2020, 12:01
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Re: Advices asked for: trying to find......

So there was in fact no accusation of abuse and no fear of further criminal proceedings. (as per your post linked). You didn't just act on bad advice from your lawyer but the judge took the time to make sure your were fully aware of the implications of your decision and that you might never see your daughter again. (Presumably after you realised that the complaint was about lack of visitation). You still voluntarily gave up your rights

You preferred to give up visitation rather than be dictated to as to when these would occur and right now you could apply for visitation rights but you don't want to because you no longer live in Switzerland. Your daughter has all the means to contact you but doesn't want to. Is that an accurate summary? If so, zero sympathy for you
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Old 03.05.2020, 12:03
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Re: Advices asked for: trying to find......

Write a nice letter and pay a lawyer to find her and send/hand-over the letter, the lawyer can find her due to access to such data and he/she will not give you the address, if your daughter wants contact it be her choice after such. If not life sucks.
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Old 03.05.2020, 12:08
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Re: Advices asked for: trying to find......

Re the link to your other post, somehow I think if the money dries up the ex will come out of hiding, if only to try and force you to keep paying if she's really that vindictive. Then go to the Swiss court to a) get back visitation rights if you want them and b) change the divorce arrangements since you can no longer meet them.
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Old 03.05.2020, 14:37
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Re: Advices asked for: trying to find......

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Firstly about visitation rights. Yes I did give them up voluntarily. When you are accused of something so terrible, you do not know what is going to be raised by your exís lawyer. That remains confidential until the hearing. Fortunately it turned out that the accusation was about me not taking enough of the visitation (because I was busy travelling the globe) trying to earn the money to pay the divorce settlement. I was also clearly asked by the judge if I understood what I was doing and what the implications could be, i.e. that I might never ever see my daughter again but that I could reapply for visitation if I changed my mind. I said yes.

Secondly, my girl was my girl asked about this, yes, although she did not make such serious allegations as abuse and school in the UK meant that she was not present at the court hearing. Again, the challenge is that you do not know what is going to be raised against you until you are in the courtroom. But you also have to ensure that this cannot be repeated a second time, so really, what other options do you have?
A sixteen year old is not a child and see will draw here own conclusions from your behaviour - you were accused of something serious in respect of her and simply walked away, you did not fight for her... it is not at all surprising that she wants to get as far away as possible.

If you can't patch it up someway with her mother or perhaps other relatives... I don't see how else you can walk this back.
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Old 03.05.2020, 16:00
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Re: Advices asked for: trying to find......

Some posters should be ashamed of their coldheartedness and selfrighteousness.
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Re the link to your other post, somehow I think if the money dries up the ex will come out of hiding, if only to try and force you to keep paying if she's really that vindictive. Then go to the Swiss court to a) get back visitation rights if you want them and b) change the divorce arrangements since you can no longer meet them.
This.
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Old 03.05.2020, 16:38
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Re: Advices asked for: trying to find......

I in no way judge your situation and am only offering advice based upon what could be your daughters perspective. 16 is a very delicate and sensitive age. Having already lost her father and dealt with a rather contentious situation at an even more delicate age, perhaps you should let her have her peace for now.

If you were to fight to be in her life, this should have been done two years ago and not now. She is too young and immature to have a full perspective and perhaps when she reaches adulthood, you can find a way back into her life. Sorry for your troubles, I am sure the pain must be immense.
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Old 03.05.2020, 18:53
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Re: Advices asked for: trying to find......

Reading OP's post from Feb 19 together with his posts today there are glaring holes and inconsistencies. It seems he doesn't want visitation or contact but to secretly discover where she (and by extension her mother) is without anyone being any the wiser. There are official channels but he wants to circumvent them.


In his words "I could follow the proper channels only I do not want to poke a rattlesnake with a stick nor do I want to know anything more other than my daughter is ok."

Were it not for his desired secrecy he could write a letter c/o the ex-wife's attorney or c/o the bank he pays the financial support to. He could even petition the court to obtain a report on how the daughter is doing. Seems he harbours a lot of bitterness against the ex-wife and his unwillingness to go through proper channel is to me a huge red flag


OP if you truly care and are worried about your daughter then take the proper official steps to find out whether she is ok. You don't need her or her mother's whereabouts to get that information. Go through proper intermediaries
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Old 03.05.2020, 19:30
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Re: Advices asked for: trying to find......

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He did not "lose" his visitation rights, he gave them up voluntarily ...
He lost his visitation rights by giving them up voluntarily.

One of the meanings of lose is "cease to have". How that comes about is irrelevant. If you need further grammar or just general English lessons, feel free to ask.

Re - inconsistencies. Life is full of them. We like to have a consistent, coherent narrative, but it's not all that simple. Something akin to Chekhov's Gun, I think.
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