Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Family matters/health  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 27.05.2020, 01:26
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,267
Groaned at 120 Times in 78 Posts
Thanked 6,631 Times in 2,320 Posts
Kittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

Since we quizzed the chap about the exact details during our weekly online Zoom quiz sessions and these are at the end of long work weeks, I can't accurately give the details. All I remember was that whatever we discussed made sense to me and I would therefore use the app. The memory space in my brain has since been overwritten by new information.

For those of you who want to see how the actual app is built, here are the Github pages for Android and for iOS. And here are the details of the Decentralized Privacy-Preserving Proximity Tracing being used. Since you all seem to be experts on IT security and privacy, I'm sure the above will be most helpful.

For the less techie folks: Your phone's Bluetooth keeps a record of other phones with the app installed on them that are closer than 2 metres for more than 15 minutes; after 21 days, that record is deleted and the data is only ever on your own phone, there is no centralised data such as the UK is planning to use.

If the owner of a phone with the app installed that the app on your phone tracked as being in close proximity is diagnosed as having COVID-19, you will be notified and asked to self-quarantine until you are able to present yourself at a testing centre and find out whether you are infected too. Only an encrypted code is sent, so you have no way of knowing who the source of the illness is.

The benefit of this is to break the chain of infections even when life returns to a more normal pace. At the moment, infection rates are so low and people are typically not in contact with many people without knowing, hence, almost all cases can be traced relatively easily. If we are to return to being able to enjoy things in larger groups, this would present quite a challenge - we often have no idea who sat next to us in the tram or was dancing nearby at a party.

Of course, no system is perfect and a lot of ad hoc decisions are being made right now, as well as a lot of opinions (some rationally researched, others just repetitions of what someone else sold to a person as facts) being voiced. My opinion ion the app is that it passes my sense check and I hope enough people feel the same way to help us return to being sociable humans in relative safety. It is a voluntary thing, just like giving blood, being in the fire brigade, helping out at the village fair, and many other activities where you have to reveal some private information in order to make a big difference. Except the app does not have a list of names and contact details hung up in the village hall.
Reply With Quote
The following 8 users would like to thank Kittster for this useful post:
  #22  
Old 27.05.2020, 07:24
baboon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Rheintal
Posts: 3,692
Groaned at 136 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 6,237 Times in 2,927 Posts
baboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

Quote:
View Post
What are the benefits as no one on this this forum knows the costs? Nor anyone for that matter.... Potential benefits for whom exactly? Therein lies the question.
Potential benefits for you, me and everyone in Switzerland.

The app should act as an aid to contact tracking and help keep the Corvid-19 infection rate low. Not perfect for sure but without this there is no way of knowing - for example the random person you sat next to on the train for 30 minutes who discovered he was infected the next day.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 27.05.2020, 07:34
baboon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Rheintal
Posts: 3,692
Groaned at 136 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 6,237 Times in 2,927 Posts
baboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

Quote:
View Post
Not from what I have read...perhaps less invasive but still can determine location.

Interesting article on Bluetooth tracing in the wake of Covid:

https://privacyinternational.org/exp...19-tech-primer

I note the following:

The risks associated with using Bluetooth for location (or proximity) tracking do not just occur at the time the data is collected, but continue as long as it is stored — in particular once it has been linked to an individual. Thus there are concerns about how data such as these could be repurposed by Governments.
That article was written well before any details of the Swiss app were known

If you would bother to actually find out how the Swiss (and German and Austrian btw) app work, you would see that it answers pretty well all of the objections raised in the article. Again, the app has no access to location. Also the connection data is encrypted and only stored locally on your phone. There is no central database (unlike the UK app for example).

Ironically the alternatives your linked article (wifi or GPS) WOULD involve the app knowing your location.

I have bothered to read up on this. Have you?
__________________
You live and learn. At any rate, you live.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank baboon for this useful post:
  #24  
Old 27.05.2020, 08:56
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Greater Zürich Area
Posts: 877
Groaned at 116 Times in 73 Posts
Thanked 649 Times in 361 Posts
EPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputation
Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

Quote:
View Post
I am with you on this Tom... They (google/apple) track us enough!

And my thoughts are: given the low level case incidence in Zurich after the "reopening" and in Switzerland as a whole, this virus will have to run its course - if it hasn't done so already.

I am very surprised by the low level of new infections here in Switzerland which leads me to believe, this virus will be more akin to 1968 (Hong Kong) than 1918 (Spanish flu - which some outlets keep touting sadly!). In 1918, that flu hit the 18-23 year old demographic and this flu seems to affect the elderly primarily, and those with pre-existing co-morbidities secondarily.

I think the press is using scare mongering here for political purposes. Time will tell how things pan out but in the US: Florida and Georgia - no spike at all despite the re-opening a month ago...Hmmm!

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/26/u...rus/index.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news...ns-83841093557

So, my answer is a "NO" - I will not be signing up for any Covid tracking device in the near future. Once one gives up a personal liberty, very hard to get it back . Just my thoughts!
The app does NOT track your location!!!

Quote:
View Post
You are THAT naive to think it will not track location?? Really? Now that is amusing...
The app does NOT track your location!!! Read up on how it works.

Quote:
View Post
Oooh! I seem to have struck a chord here baboon! So tell me why a so called "tracking device" would not include location? Is that not an oxymoron??

Please continue as I find your argument humorous at best!
It is NOT a location tracking app, that is how!

Quote:
View Post
because it uses bluetooth instead of gps. disadvantage is of course that measuring distance via bluetooth is not too accurate.
Doesn't have to be. All it needs to do is to alert you if you spent some time near an confirmed infected person. It doesn't matter where (not even the app knows) or who that is (only the infected user knows the identity).

It is a greatly designed app that truly addresses privacy concerns using technology and not by relying on trust.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank EPMike for this useful post:
  #25  
Old 27.05.2020, 09:03
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Greater Zurich
Posts: 477
Groaned at 12 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 113 Times in 79 Posts
higgsboson has made some interesting contributions
Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

Why am I the first person mentioning that this app has actually been designed by EPFL in Lausanne and not the one in Zürich which is more colloquially known as the ETH?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank higgsboson for this useful post:
This user groans at higgsboson for this post:
  #26  
Old 27.05.2020, 09:11
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 12,032
Groaned at 184 Times in 161 Posts
Thanked 17,329 Times in 7,047 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

Quote:
View Post
Time to smash my phone.

Tom
That's my approach to iPhones regardless.

You know all these conspiracy theories are put about by the CIA?
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 27.05.2020, 09:30
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 11,472
Groaned at 86 Times in 77 Posts
Thanked 17,455 Times in 7,759 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

Quote:
View Post
Why am I the first person mentioning that this app has actually been designed by EPFL in Lausanne and not the one in Zürich which is more colloquially known as the ETH?
Ackchyually, it was designed by both ETH and EPFL.

Here some information in English: https://ethz.ch/en/news-and-events/e...covid-app.html

Here the FAQ regarding the App in English from the BAG:
https://www.bag.admin.ch/dam/bag/en/...racing_App.pdf
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #28  
Old 27.05.2020, 09:48
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Greater Zürich Area
Posts: 877
Groaned at 116 Times in 73 Posts
Thanked 649 Times in 361 Posts
EPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputation
Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

Quote:
View Post
Why am I the first person mentioning that this app has actually been designed by EPFL in Lausanne and not the one in Zürich which is more colloquially known as the ETH?
Probably because your statement is false. It is actually both ETHL and ETHZ

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/covid-1...-foe-/45746418
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank EPMike for this useful post:
This user groans at EPMike for this post:
  #29  
Old 27.05.2020, 09:53
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,267
Groaned at 120 Times in 78 Posts
Thanked 6,631 Times in 2,320 Posts
Kittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

Quote:
View Post
Why am I the first person mentioning that this app has actually been designed by EPFL in Lausanne and not the one in Zürich which is more colloquially known as the ETH?
Although the majority of the work and the testing exercises were done at EPFL, it is indeed a cooperation with the ETH as others have already mentioned.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Kittster for this useful post:
  #30  
Old 27.05.2020, 10:35
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 831
Groaned at 10 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 1,045 Times in 500 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

Experiences with tracing apps on the other side of the world:

Quote:
In part, the app’s lack of utility thus far is a good thing. The chief health officer for New South Wales, Dr Kerry Chant, said this week that despite the state experiencing “teething problems” with accessing data from the app, there had been no need to because all the new cases had generally been from returned travellers or people who were already isolating and had no unidentified close contacts
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ost-irrelevant

There should be a funny acronym for Solution looking for a problem to solve
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 27.05.2020, 11:24
lost_inbroad's Avatar
Unbridled Mod
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Town or region
Posts: 11,383
Groaned at 626 Times in 400 Posts
Thanked 15,880 Times in 6,210 Posts
lost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

I don't really see the point of such app if not everybody is using it. I can understand the point made by people who question the integrity of such a software but in essence, as stated prior by others, there are so many other devices which track our daily movement and infringe on our privacy. I think the app should be compulsory for the time being and then just self-delete once the crisis is over. On second thought, I don't even think there should be an app. Because whenever you involve the human element, there are bound to be errors. I would welcome a silent software, which installs itself, warns us about the being in contact with and then self-deletes itself. Of course this would just be the ideal scenario but IMO, the quickest way to dam COVID-19. Obviously, there are many cons involved, such as deliberate tracking of movement and people, the delicate handling of such intrusive data, etc. which all are valid concerns.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank lost_inbroad for this useful post:
  #32  
Old 27.05.2020, 11:32
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,267
Groaned at 120 Times in 78 Posts
Thanked 6,631 Times in 2,320 Posts
Kittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

While I agree, we asked our friend about this and he said that the pushback from people who are against, well, "stuff", would make installing or not installing the app a political thing rather than a "curtailing the spread of corona" thing. He said that a 60% usage would already have significant impact. Let's not forget that it is likely to be a certain part of the population that will be more inclined to install it, which also happens to be the people that live in urban areas.

Regarding making it compulsory, I think it would make sense to say that you can only attend concerts/other large events or use public transport during rush hour if you have the app installed.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Kittster for this useful post:
  #33  
Old 27.05.2020, 12:01
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Zürich
Posts: 76
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 37 Times in 21 Posts
rezak has no particular reputation at present
Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

Some of the responses in this thread are getting close to "Bill gates has created COVID to inject us with microchips via 5G towers" territory, it's quite sad..
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank rezak for this useful post:
  #34  
Old 27.05.2020, 12:15
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 831
Groaned at 10 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 1,045 Times in 500 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

Quote:
View Post
Regarding making it compulsory, I think it would make sense to say that you can only attend concerts/other large events or use public transport during rush hour if you have the app installed.
And this is where technological dreaming crashes with the real world. If I lose my phone, can I still ride the train to work at 7h00? Meanwhile, if I drive to work, no phone is needed. Looks like a tax.

One of the students of my wife lost her phone a week ago. The dad called my wife to ask if she saw the phone somewhere at the school. This kind of things happen........so, sorry kid, walk home?

Curious thing is you can travel using public transport without a valid ticket. If you get caught all you get is a fine, but you can still get home. Is it realistic than a phone and an app could restrict access to public transport?

The most stupid of situations: I go for beers with colleagues, time passes, no battery, what then?

Cynicism is making me dumb, I think my only point is any system (including contract tracing system) require cooperating individuals to work. The patronizing attitude in the post above about technical knowledge and conspiracy theories will only produce backlash from the very people you want to cooperate. Welcome to politics =)
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 27.05.2020, 13:59
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,267
Groaned at 120 Times in 78 Posts
Thanked 6,631 Times in 2,320 Posts
Kittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

Quote:
View Post
And this is where technological dreaming crashes with the real world. If I lose my phone, can I still ride the train to work at 7h00? Meanwhile, if I drive to work, no phone is needed. Looks like a tax.

One of the students of my wife lost her phone a week ago. The dad called my wife to ask if she saw the phone somewhere at the school. This kind of things happen........so, sorry kid, walk home?

Curious thing is you can travel using public transport without a valid ticket. If you get caught all you get is a fine, but you can still get home. Is it realistic than a phone and an app could restrict access to public transport?

The most stupid of situations: I go for beers with colleagues, time passes, no battery, what then?

Cynicism is making me dumb, I think my only point is any system (including contract tracing system) require cooperating individuals to work. The patronizing attitude in the post above about technical knowledge and conspiracy theories will only produce backlash from the very people you want to cooperate. Welcome to politics =)
I have Attention Deficit Disorder. In the twenty years of me having a mobile phone, I have never lost or broken a single one and only forgotten to take it with me a handful of times. Battery gone flat has only happened two or three times. Do you leave your house without your keys or your wallet? If you know that it is compulsory to have it for certain activities, you develop strategies. Also, not everyone has a phone, so it clear that there will always have to be some leeway for those people.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Kittster for this useful post:
  #36  
Old 27.05.2020, 14:15
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 10,920
Groaned at 172 Times in 143 Posts
Thanked 12,226 Times in 6,410 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

Quote:
View Post
Time to smash my phone.

Tom
Alternatively you can do it like me, leave the house without it mostly.

Quote:
View Post
The app does NOT track your location!!!



The app does NOT track your location!!! Read up on how it works.



It is NOT a location tracking app, that is how!



Doesn't have to be. All it needs to do is to alert you if you spent some time near an confirmed infected person. It doesn't matter where (not even the app knows) or who that is (only the infected user knows the identity).

It is a greatly designed app that truly addresses privacy concerns using technology and not by relying on trust.
, tell me, does the app track my location?


The only use of this app would be for me to check who I met without meeting and is it worth going back?

But seriously, if the app tells me I spent too much time too closely to a corona infected person I do what? Run to the hospital? Lock myself up at home for two weeks? I won't know where it happened. Or does it bleep when it happens and I give my environment a nasty look? And wait for one person to blush?
__________________
be inventive!
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 27.05.2020, 14:26
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Albisrieden
Posts: 4,799
Groaned at 107 Times in 75 Posts
Thanked 7,122 Times in 2,633 Posts
nickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

It will not track people who wear foil hats.

Quote:
View Post
You are THAT naive to think it will not track location?? Really? Now that is amusing...
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank nickatbasel for this useful post:
  #38  
Old 27.05.2020, 14:40
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,575
Groaned at 222 Times in 187 Posts
Thanked 21,978 Times in 9,337 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

Quote:
View Post
because it uses bluetooth instead of gps. disadvantage is of course that measuring distance via bluetooth is not too accurate.
It is pretty accurate if you use triangulation rather than signal strength as a basis of your measurement.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #39  
Old 27.05.2020, 15:47
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 831
Groaned at 10 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 1,045 Times in 500 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

Quote:
View Post
I have Attention Deficit Disorder. In the twenty years of me having a mobile phone, I have never lost or broken a single one and only forgotten to take it with me a handful of times. Battery gone flat has only happened two or three times. Do you leave your house without your keys or your wallet? If you know that it is compulsory to have it for certain activities, you develop strategies. Also, not everyone has a phone, so it clear that there will always have to be some leeway for those people.

Understood, develop strategies to never forget the phone, keep it charged at all times, install the app, ensure bluetooth to be able to ride public transport. Can you see now why people would resist the idea?


Then comes the issue of phones not being close to the body of the user: jackets, backpacks, purses, being put on a table.....endless possibilities.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 27.05.2020, 15:50
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 7,669
Groaned at 304 Times in 252 Posts
Thanked 9,867 Times in 5,208 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

The SwissCovid app doesn't have access to SIM, contacts list, or GPS.
It's utterly agnostic of these data, thus it's unable to send any thereof elsewhere.

The crazy thing is that people get their knickers in a twist about this, yet at the same time they don't give a rat's ass about the data harvesting that is known to happen. Google, FB, WA, Twitter, plus of course any number of other companies and government agencies including the US' NSA.

That's like watching your wallet like a hawk after you've deposited a pile of money on the road.

Last edited by Urs Max; 27.05.2020 at 16:02.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tracing Family or Friends Deep Purple Daily life 0 05.02.2015 15:07
Products actually developed by Migros Customers! lemondrizzle Food and drink 14 13.05.2012 15:00
Developed Allergy for first time Goodgirl76 Family matters/health 5 20.04.2011 11:44
Are the Swiss alpine peaks over-developed? Deep Purple Swiss politics/news 9 13.02.2011 16:38
Switzerland: 3rd least obese/overweight developed country scrambled Daily life 148 06.12.2010 23:09


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 21:56.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0