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Old 27.05.2020, 16:02
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Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

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Understood, develop strategies to never forget the phone, keep it charged at all times, install the app, ensure bluetooth to be able to ride public transport. Can you see now why people would resist the idea?


Then comes the issue of phones not being close to the body of the user: jackets, backpacks, purses, being put on a table.....endless possibilities.
you need to stop the nirvana fallacy.


given people's behaviour it is far more likely that the phone is active with them than not.
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  #42  
Old 27.05.2020, 16:10
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Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

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The SwissCovid app doesn't have access to SIM, contacts list, or GPS.
It's utterly agnostic of these data, thus it's unable to send any thereof elsewhere.

The crazy thing is that people get their knickers in a twist about this, yet at the same time they don't give a rat's ass about the data harvesting that is known to happen. Google, FB, WA, Twitter, plus of course any number of other companies and government agencies including the US' NSA.

That's like watching your wallet like a hawk after you've deposited a pile of money on the road.
Very true.

Still, so the ill person kind of hast to tell it's app that they are ill, to insure the app can alert others of "an ill near by"?

And still nobody answered to my "and then what" post further up.
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  #43  
Old 27.05.2020, 16:14
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Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

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Understood, develop strategies to never forget the phone, keep it charged at all times, install the app, ensure bluetooth to be able to ride public transport. Can you see now why people would resist the idea?


Then comes the issue of phones not being close to the body of the user: jackets, backpacks, purses, being put on a table.....endless possibilities.
I'm starting to think that I am significantly more attentive to my actions and surroundings than the so-called neurotypical folks...

Makes me understand better why people walk in front of trams and nonsense like that. Focus, people, just because the sabre tooth tigers aren't lurking in the bushes any more doesn't mean you can just moon about when you step out of your front door.
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  #44  
Old 27.05.2020, 16:29
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Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

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But seriously, if the app tells me I spent too much time too closely to a corona infected person I do what? Run to the hospital? Lock myself up at home for two weeks? I won't know where it happened. Or does it bleep when it happens and I give my environment a nasty look? And wait for one person to blush?
I can imagine a few interesting scenarios:

International trip. You get a notification that you were close to a person that tested positive 1 hour before the plane departure. Do you board the plane or not? Will the air carrier consider this as a valid cause for flight reschedule or lose the money?

While working at the office you get a notification that you were close to a person that tested positive. Ride 2 packed trains to get home, go to the hospital?

Tragicomedy: receiving the notification while having simple flu or pollen allergy symptoms.

School: a kid tells the teacher his phone just got the notification. Run, scream, or scream while running?

Lazy: since everything is anonymized, why not fake receiving a notification an skip boring work 1 day?

Anxious: since everything is anonymized, why not fake receiving a notification and hide from that damned project deadline 1 day?

Trollish: since everything is anonymized, use the app to submit a fake positive test result and make other people get the notification?

I better stop here...........or I'll awake my inner troll
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  #45  
Old 27.05.2020, 16:32
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Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

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Very true.

Still, so the ill person kind of hast to tell it's app that they are ill, to insure the app can alert others of "an ill near by"?

And still nobody answered to my "and then what" post further up.
Say you get tested positive, so you get a lab report.

The report will contain a code that you enter in the app. The code can only be used once. That's the only way to tell it "I'm positive", this is how idiots, assholes and shenanigans are kept from falsely reporting they're positive and wreaking havoc.

The app then sends the ephemeral IDs (the ID it uses changes periodically) it used during the relevant time period to a server - only those anonymised IDs are sent.

Every SwissCovid app pulls those "I'm positive" IDs periodically from the server and compares them to those it recorded. When a match is registered you get a notification saying so. That's all. What you do with that information is up to you. Of course the hope is that you'll self-isolate if you can, at least if you show symptoms, but that's your decision alone. If your reaction involves school, employer or whatnot, the lab report is your proof.
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  #46  
Old 27.05.2020, 16:35
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Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

Thank you, Urs Max, for explaining it so that now hopefully even the densest will understand. If not, there is a wealth of information available. In fact, can we make it a rule that you familiarise yourself with how it is actually going to work (or should work) before adding further drivel to this thread?


TLDR:

R! T! F! M!
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Old 27.05.2020, 16:36
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Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

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Time to smash my phone.
Tom
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I am with you on this Tom... They (google/apple) track us enough!

So, my answer is a "NO" - I will not be signing up for any Covid tracking device in the near future. Once one gives up a personal liberty, very hard to get it back . Just my thoughts!
No disrespect to either of you VIPs, but why would 'the government' or anyone else give a damn about your movements?
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  #48  
Old 27.05.2020, 17:10
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Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

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But seriously, if the app tells me I spent too much time too closely to a corona infected person I do what? Run to the hospital? Lock myself up at home for two weeks? I won't know where it happened. Or does it bleep when it happens and I give my environment a nasty look? And wait for one person to blush?
Simple. You self-isolate and (I think now possible) after a few days seek a test. You will never know when or where you might have been infected, only the fact that you MIGHT be.

No different to any other form of track and trace. Basically if there is a decent risk you have been infected you must isolate yourself from others.
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Old 27.05.2020, 20:46
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Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

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Thank you, Urs Max, for explaining it so that now hopefully even the densest will understand. If not, there is a wealth of information available. In fact, can we make it a rule that you familiarise yourself with how it is actually going to work (or should work) before adding further drivel to this thread?


TLDR:

R! T! F! M!
Naaa, I avoid manuals when ever I can. The summary by Urs Max did the trick, all I needed to know.
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Old 27.05.2020, 20:54
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Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

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You are THAT naive to think it will not track location?? Really? Now that is amusing...
The NSA is already tracking you. They don't need an app.
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  #51  
Old 27.05.2020, 21:14
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Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

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The NSA is already tracking you. They don't need an app.
True. But they don't know if I suffer from corona yet. THAT must be frustrating for them.
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Old 27.05.2020, 21:55
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Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

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True. But they don't know if I suffer from corona yet. THAT must be frustrating for them.
If you have a lab test done, there's no reason to believe any digitised data will remain private.
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Old 27.05.2020, 22:04
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Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

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True. But they don't know if I suffer from corona yet. THAT must be frustrating for them.
They just ask Mossad.
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Old 27.05.2020, 22:28
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Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

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And still nobody answered to my "and then what" post further up.
Imagine that you're told that a coworker in the office was diagnosed with COVID, someone that work on your floor, does not necessarily mean you've been in close contact, but maybe.
Will you do anything based on this info? If yes - you'd probably want to do pretty much the same in case app flags with "risky contact". If not - then you don't need to do anything
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Old 27.05.2020, 22:49
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Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

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Imagine that you're told that a coworker in the office was diagnosed with COVID, someone that work on your floor, does not necessarily mean you've been in close contact, but maybe.
Will you do anything based on this info? If yes - you'd probably want to do pretty much the same in case app flags with "risky contact". If not - then you don't need to do anything
Had this happen, and little information was shared. The specs on the app don't give me much confidence from some of the case studies I've seen. Here's an example that worries me with respect to ventilation systems: https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/8/20-1274_article
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Old 27.05.2020, 22:53
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Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

And "What iF" this is a seasonal flu/virus? Why haven't the numbers spiked in Zurich? No masks, no social distancing and yet 2 and 1/2 weeks in - the numbers are very flat! And so what gives?

No spike in Georgia or Florida and it has been over a month now since they reopened. Why would any tracking device be necessary if this Covid strain runs its course - insofar as the most at risk are protected or self-isolate?
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Old 27.05.2020, 23:12
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Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

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And "What iF" this is a seasonal flu/virus? Why haven't the numbers spiked in Zurich? No masks, no social distancing and yet 2 and 1/2 weeks in - the numbers are very flat! And so what gives?

No spike in Georgia or Florida and it has been over a month now since they reopened. Why would any tracking device be necessary if this Covid strain runs its course - insofar as the most at risk are protected or self-isolate?
What makes you think people are too stupid or too egotistic to react to the death toll? What makes you think the pictures from New York have no effect in the US, and Cuomo's admonitions, demands and pleas? And those from Italy and Spain around here?

You know, like, social distancing and personal hygiene. Perhaps roaming a bit less often and avoiding the thick crowds where possible.
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Old 27.05.2020, 23:53
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Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

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What makes you think people are too stupid or too egotistic to react to the death toll? What makes you think the pictures from New York have no effect in the US, and Cuomo's admonitions, demands and pleas? And those from Italy and Spain around here?

You know, like, social distancing and personal hygiene. Perhaps roaming a bit less often and avoiding the thick crowds where possible.
Your post is almost indecipherable...What exactly are you trying to say?

Cuomo for the record is a moron! Look at the statistics once he mandated that all Covid patients with "stable conditions" had to be re-admitted to "private" nursing homes and look at the stats! Most fatalities in NY occurred in Nursing homes and long term care facilities thanks to Cuomo.

You need to reference a better role model as Cuomo is not your guy...

As to Italy and Spain, well not to state the obvious but their health care systems (not the best compared to Switzerland or the US) were overwhelmed. The Swiss and the US health care systems managed well.

And with the roaming issue, I live in central Zurich and I can tell you very few wear masks and most are out and about as if this virus never occurred. And yet...no spike! Why?
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Old 27.05.2020, 23:58
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Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

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Had this happen, and little information was shared. The specs on the app don't give me much confidence from some of the case studies I've seen. Here's an example that worries me with respect to ventilation systems: https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/8/20-1274_article
Why the ventilation?
Did you check the floor plan (figure 2)?

The majority of the infected on floor 11 worked in the same big office with maybe 20-30cm space to the left and right. Only 5 who got infected didn't work in that one large office, but the women from the large office had to pass through their office to get to the women's toilet.
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Old 28.05.2020, 00:14
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Re: Tracing App developed by ETH for Covid-19

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Imagine that you're told that a coworker in the office was diagnosed with COVID, someone that work on your floor, does not necessarily mean you've been in close contact, but maybe.
Will you do anything based on this info? If yes - you'd probably want to do pretty much the same in case app flags with "risky contact". If not - then you don't need to do anything
Well, maybe it makes a difference that I have been exposed to clients who turned out heavily infected with TB. Three known times, no idea how many unknown times. Shit happens. I got tested, once they wanted to play it safe and insisted I do a 3 month antibiotics therapy. Which I did while I kept on working. And I didn't jump out of the way of all the other clients who could have been infected too. As I don't usually hug my clients, social distancing at a minimum was given.

I'm sure this app is a fine thing for those who want to use it. I don't want to be bleeped at when ever someone crosses my path who was reported infected. I follow the suggested rules without being too awkward and I'll deal with it should I show symptoms.

No I would not do anything about it, if someone on the same floor was diagnosed with covid-19, except maybe monitor my physical state a bit closer. The company probably would and I'd have to go along with what ever they decide.
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