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  #21  
Old 14.08.2020, 20:20
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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The change in 2017 determined that there's no longer a difference between unmarried and married couples when it comes to alimony for the child's caregiver. The Federal Court (FC) has ruled in 2018 that the minimum amount is the "ExistenzMinimum", the minimum to live here and pay for rent, helath insurance, etc. These amounts for child and caregiver will vary somewhat by Canton, but not by that much.

In the above case from 2018, a couple in their early 30ies with one 4yr old child, the FC ruled that the child gets 2070 CHF, the mother (who appears to be the fulltime caregiver) 1600 in the first year.

In OP's case, who's often away hence 100% care by the mother, that's ...
10 * 12 * (2070 + 1600)
6 * 12 * (2070 + 800)
4 * 12 * (2070 + 0)
=====
746'400
=====

... until the child has turned 20. And even this assumes that the mother does work 50% from the child's age 10-15, and 100% afterwards. If she pretends to be unable to land a job, which is trivial to get accepted, the amount increases to 810'000. In OP's case, who appears to be often abroad for long periods there's little chance to get any kind of reduction of the alimony by taking over a part of the childcare.

Obviously there's a clear incentive to not move in together and milk the father some more when the mother finds a new lover.

The father has zero decision rights, but bears full financial responsibility even if the child is born against his will. To deny this is burying the head in the sand.

And even today it's clearly accepted if the mother keeps alienating the child from the father more, the horror stories abound where the KESB fully supports those cu.nts.
The father must be well paid, normal is less than 1k total/month.

Tom
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  #22  
Old 14.08.2020, 20:24
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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And even today it's clearly accepted if the mother keeps alienating the child from the father more, the horror stories abound where the KESB fully supports those cu.nts.
You might not expect support from me in this, but yes, I hear your anger. And yes, some decisions by the Court and by KESB are horribly unfair, to one parent or the other, often - though not always - towards the father.

The consequences for the child of Parental Alienation Syndrome can be life-long damage, and sometimes, remarkably, they suffer even more when they're adults than when they were children. Especially when they become parents, themselves, that can start them on a renewed journey of trying to untangle the pain of what happened between their parents.

Even so, there is relatively little public acknowledgement of the hurt suffered by the alienated parent, as he (and sometimes she) yearns to have contact with his (or her) child(ren), but is prevented from doing so, or it is made so very difficult by the arrangements set up. Fortunately, there is a growing movement about this.

I find it a great pity that in some cases that pain tips over into full-blown misogyny or misandry. When that happens, the very people who are campaigning for fairness risk putting themselves in a bad light, and diminishing their chances of being given access to their children, as they are deemed to full of hate and discrimination.

I think quite a lot could be done if both parents were formally made to understand that they each have a legal duty towards their child bear part of the responsibility of ensuring that their child has ease of access to the other parent.
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Old 14.08.2020, 20:24
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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The father has zero decision rights, but bears full financial responsibility even if the child is born against his will. To deny this is burying the head in the sand.
In fact, both parents are financially responsible for the child. In theory - and yes, I do know that reality doesn't always carry through on the theory - the parents should share "parental authority" (it is now usual to award joint parental authority to both parents). And sometimes they als share "residence" (called "Obhut" in German) so that the child lives part-time with one parent and part-time with the other.

In the case of OP, who travels abroad a lot, that's part of the decision. If OP wants to build a case to spend more time with the child, then the route is to try to live in Switzerland more than now.

The main "decision right" that every man has, is whether or not he takes the necessary precautions to prevent getting a woman pregnant. If he messes up on this, such that she can becomes pregnant, and he does not want her to have the child... yes, then he has a very long and difficult road ahead of him.
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Old 14.08.2020, 20:56
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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My missus made it clear when we were getting serious that she might not want to go back to work after having kids and that was something I had to be fine with (I'm perfectly happy either way). After kid 1 she still hasn't decided.
I once dated a woman who told me that she expected that whether or not she had a child, that after marriage she expected to either quit work, or just take on jobs that she considered fun but that she expected me to do all the providing and cover the costs .

At the end of the day, why not ? Every couple needs to work out how they share the burden . I also have a male friend who is married to a lady who is a high ranking bank executive and he stays at home and looks after their handicapped child. Despite himself having previously worked in management and surely being able to make enough to hire somebody else to do that work. But good on him .
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Old 14.08.2020, 21:08
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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adulwomen who are medically unable to conceive, for example those who have had their tubes tied or had a hysterectomy (that you're 100% sure about) or post-menopausal women

Be very very careful with this type of advice .

I know of one case of a lady in her late 40s was told by several doctors that the odds of her conceiving naturally were so poor that they could be considered impossible .She was having an affair with a considerably older guy whose doctor had assured him that his sperm quality was so low as to virtually wipe out any chance of conceiving naturally .

And yet they did .
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Old 14.08.2020, 21:22
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Why don't you just do what you can to make certain your girlfriend doesn't get pregnant?!
Become gay. Seems trendy and cheaper Now makes sense the nightlife in Zurich
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Old 15.08.2020, 01:02
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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the very people who are campaigning for fairness
Modern feminism is about anything but fairness, or equal rights, duties and opportunities. It's purely about entitlement without duties - for women, of course.

The notion that the father is held responsible for something he has no say in is simply beyond anything that would be acceptable anywhere else.
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Old 15.08.2020, 04:10
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Modern feminism is about anything but fairness, or equal rights, duties and opportunities. It's purely about entitlement without duties - for women, of course.
That is probably so, sadly, amongst the men-hating radical feminists, yes. There was an initial idea, about equality and fairness, and for some sliver of the women's movement (but not, as I experience it, for most women), it tipped overboard into full-out hate and derision. The same is true for a part of the men's movement which started out well-intended, wanting equality for men (for some men, that involves the struggle towards equal access to seeing and raising their children, and thanks to their endeavours Switzerland is poised to approve [at least some] paternity leave), but then (again for some but not all men) it became radicalised and the bitterness turned into women-hating. Both these extremes sadden me.

As it is, although I have, in the past, known some exceedingly lazy paint-my-toenails-and-pay-for-my-shopping princesses, nowadays I cannot think of any adult I know, neither man nor woman, who truly believes that his/her partner or ex owes them full support, for which they must do nothing at all.

I have met some in the past 5 or 10 years who still do believe that, while the child is small, at least one parent should stay at home to look after the child(ren) and the other owes them a duty of support. In some cases it's the man who does this, in some cases the women, and as amogles said, why not, if they're both comfortable with their arrangement.

Most people I know whose children are aged over 2 or 3 both earn money, even if not in the same proportions. Often, both work part-time, so as to have time to spend with their children. Many share the work at home, and some make use of child-care facilities so that both of them can work earning money.

The last couples of whom I know, where the husband always worked full-time and the wife was always a full-time stay at home mother, have children who are now aged well over 20. I cannot, however, think of a divorced couple where the ex-husband fully supported the ex-wife until the children were that old.

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The notion that the father is held responsible for something he has no say in is simply beyond anything that would be acceptable anywhere else.
The man, at least before he became a father, was always fully responsible for the extent to which he made it at all possible that his sex partner might conceive.

And yet, unwanted pregnancies happen. I can understand the frustration of a man who wishes that the woman would get and abortion, but she chooses not to. Conversely, I've witnessed the heartbreak of a man who wished that his sex partner would carry the baby to term and he was willing to become a father, but she chose to abort, instead.

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Old 15.08.2020, 04:11
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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The notion that the father is held responsible for something he has no say in is simply beyond anything that would be acceptable anywhere else.
The notion, legally, of being held responsible for something which one [at least] caused, but thereafter in which one has no further say, does, indeed, exist in other contexts (and there, too, can drain one's energy and purse).
  • For example, if one causes or co-causes an accident, one is responsible for the consequences, even though one has no say whatsoever in, for example, how carefully/negligently a passerby tries to help, whether the ambulance drivers do their job properly, or how many years of which operations the doctors and the injured party deem necessary, nor which medical treatments the injured party chooses to have, or which wheelchair, etc., and this even over decades.
  • Another example might be a professional liability, such an architect or civil engineer or builder being co-responsible for the collapse of a building. That can drag on for many years, with legal battles between the various professionals and their insurers, and those of the injured parties, leaving an individual to have to contribute to the matter for decades.
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Old 15.08.2020, 04:16
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Modern feminism is about anything but fairness, or equal rights, duties and opportunities. It's purely about entitlement without duties - for women, of course.

The notion that the father is held responsible for something he has no say in is simply beyond anything that would be acceptable anywhere else.
Had a rough time with women, Urs? Your dislike of them, or at least the "modern" ones (LOL) seems to be a bit of a theme whenever these threads come up.
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  #31  
Old 15.08.2020, 06:59
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Modern feminism is about anything but fairness, or equal rights, duties and opportunities. It's purely about entitlement without duties - for women, of course.
I think the issue is more complex than that but I understand the criticism towards modern femlib movement. More from an evolutionary or intuitive point of view than anything else, really. Times change but core human needs not so much.

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The notion that the father is held responsible for something he has no say in is simply beyond anything that would be acceptable anywhere else.
This is exaggerated - it is hard to agree with. The man given how conception works would have to pretty much be unconscious to be considered not bearing any responsibility.

I don't know how other people do it but I doubt it is unconscious or naieve in any way. I think nature also gives guys more lucidness in bed coz they have a mission, sort of speak. The father has his say from the 1st second.
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Old 15.08.2020, 12:47
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Become gay. Seems trendy and cheaper Now makes sense the nightlife in Zurich
Even there these days you can’t be sure there .

Apparently , or so we are told, there are gay men, or at least individuals who self identify as such ,who have ovaries .
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Old 15.08.2020, 12:55
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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This is exaggerated - it is hard to agree with. The man given how conception works would have to pretty much be unconscious to be considered not bearing any responsibility.

.
People who defend an absolutely unfettered right to abortion right up until birth , and let’s admit that there is a considerable overlap between radical femlib and that group , abjure the question of responsibility by referring to contraceptives not being fully reliable , and also to accidents happening , for example when people are drunk or on drugs .

Those same arguments , if they can be accepted , surely also support the argument that there may be women who instrumentalize a possible accident to gain an advantage at the man’s cost.
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Old 15.08.2020, 13:04
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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People who defend an absolutely unfettered right to abortion right up until birth , and let’s admit that there is a considerable overlap between radical femlib and that group , abjure the question of responsibility by referring to contraceptives not being fully reliable , and also to accidents happening , for example when people are drunk or on drugs .

Those same arguments , if they can be accepted , surely also support the argument that there may be women who instrumentalize a possible accident to gain an advantage at the man’s cost.
Totally. But then digging in the difference between an accident and ill intent is a matter of how expensive one's attorney is, sadly. And not how provided for the child must be. Nothing is bulletproof, not even a condom. There is a warning on the package.

But imho Sean Hughes said it a lot better: You say stupid things to the person you're in love with. Like, "Here is all my money".

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Old 15.08.2020, 13:15
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

Right now, I just feel sorry for the unborn child.
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  #36  
Old 15.08.2020, 13:42
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

I know this post will be not polite but in Portugal there is a program every day like a talk show but criminal investigators.

Usually they debate known cases and info not protected by justice.

Some rapes (women) starts with drinking and everything else.

I am a man so i know i am biased but if a couple goes drinking heavily in a barbecue or a high fashion party and a baby is conceived that night my personal opinion is quite divided:

We are talking a planned act to make man/husband drunk, having sex and make him 20 years of debts.

Many people goes to prison only for tax fraud. I imagine what would be in Portugal this.

You are telling in this thread this is how it should be. I am little shocked

I have another question: Man with L permit and woman with L permit. So both not swiss with temporary contracts. Why all calculations are based in Swiss expenses standards?
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Old 15.08.2020, 14:31
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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The notion, legally, of being held responsible for something which one [at least] caused, but thereafter in which one has no further say, does, indeed, exist in other contexts (and there, too, can drain one's energy and purse).

[... list removed for brevity of the quote]
Pregnancy (in this context) is a two-step issue, conception followed by the decision on abortion. In your list, the analogy for the first case is fleeing from the accident location, something obdiously everyone decides for themselves nowadays - if lacking a working phone, the analogy might be a passenger taken along by the driver who caused the accident, in which case the passenger will be heard and let off if they can raise a plausible defense. In the second, each person involved decides for themselves whether to fight such a responsibilty or not, there's no such option for the father-to-be.

In both analogies each person involved decides for themselves. That's not the case with pregnancy/abortion, the father is a forced passenger without any say yet full liability.
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This is exaggerated - it is hard to agree with. The man given how conception works would have to pretty much be unconscious to be considered not bearing any responsibility.

I don't know how other people do it but I doubt it is unconscious or naieve in any way. I think nature also gives guys more lucidness in bed coz they have a mission, sort of speak. The father has his say from the 1st second.
How is it exaggerated? If you assume unconscious intention for him you must do the same for the woman and assume unconcious (ill) intent when she forgets the pill where that's the means they agreed upon. And of course that doesn't consider accidents, and instances where the two play roulette.

There's no way for him to get an abortion if the woman disagrees.
There's no way for himt to avoid an abortion if the woman disagrees.

He has no say in both situations. Yet he's held liable in the first case, and the public will bear the costs in the 2nd.

The husband is the father by law. That's contestable (during the first year after birth IIRC), afterwards his fatherhood is sealed. Contesting fatherhood in a marriage may well break it, so many husbands will not go that route even if they have serious doubts. If the marriage still breaks later on there's zero recourse, tough luck for him. Heads the wife wins, tails the husband loses.


ETA:
What is that men's movement you're talking about? There's basically none as far as the public is concerned, not even the law on rape gets revised to include men. And how many men's shelters get public funding, how many exist in the first place? Mhh, on second thought that's probably too much of a digression.

Last edited by Urs Max; 15.08.2020 at 15:01.
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Old 15.08.2020, 14:52
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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We are talking a planned act to make man/husband drunk, having sex and make him 20 years of debts.
It's his decision (a series of decisions actually) to get drunk. While that may lower the barrier, it's still no excuse for rape. That's an entirely different issue.
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I have another question: Man with L permit and woman with L permit. So both not swiss with temporary contracts. Why all calculations are based in Swiss expenses standards?
Because that's what's known. You can't rule based on what might be, if things change materially the ruling needs to get revised. Of course the party who'll probably be disadvantaged by the revision will want to postpone the new ruling and drag the case on for as long as possible, which may well be multiple years.
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Old 15.08.2020, 15:29
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

I really think there's a lot to be said for abstinence. Sure, sex is great, and should be enjoyed.

It's just always the case, when a woman and a man have sex together that - apart from certainty through an operation or menopause long ago - that both he and she must know, from the first moment they've smiled at each other from across the room, that this tantalising first exchange, if it progresses from here to sex, might cause conception.

If a man has sex with a woman in child-bearing age or, conversely, if a woman in child-bearing age has sex with a man (and if they're straight that's quite natural to want to do so) then the time to consider possible conception is... beforehand.

Not facing up to that blank biological fact, or pretending that it's someone else's duty to intervene against nature on one's behalf, is irresponsible.
  • If he/she knows that he/she does not want to have a child, or not now, or not with this person, then Just Don't Get Sperm Anywhere Near A Vagina.
  • If he/she knows that having a drink will most likely lower their sense of responsibility towards themselves so far that they might end up having irresponsible sex, well then, Just Don't Drink.
  • And for anyone who knows, for certain, that he/she doesn't want to have any [more] children, then Just Get The Snip Done, and set yourself free.
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Old 15.08.2020, 15:47
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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  • If he/she knows that he/she does not want to have a child, or not now, or not with this person, then Just Don't Get Sperm Anywhere Near A Vagina.

Pretty much this. Naivety affects both men and women, and isn't a defence for either.
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