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Old 15.08.2020, 16:16
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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What is that men's movement you're talking about? There's basically none as far as the public is concerned, not even the law on rape gets revised to include men. And how many men's shelters get public funding, how many exist in the first place? Mhh, on second thought that's probably too much of a digression.
I don't think it is and I agree. You don't exaggerate there nor go too far. Maybe we should have "just shelters", we actually do.

Let's focus on the baby though. And also maybe the fact that an abortion as a solution is actually unthinkable for some women, and impossible for others, for risks it often implies to their future fertility or hormonal health. Another think is tying the tubes for both isn't risk free and I know people with serious consequences, hormonal imbalance, early andropause, menopause, etc. Dealing with consequences is too late to act, abstinence isn't solution either..The only thing is - time, investments, trust, loyalty, the opposite of disposable or replaceable relationships, imho (that internet is just full of), knowing the other person. I guess people like to underthink and overfeel.
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  #42  
Old 15.08.2020, 21:45
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

Here's a thought - only date women who have more to lose than you in the event of getting pregnant. And who are not opposed to abortion.

As for the unreasonable aspects of the femlib movement: remember that marital rape only recently became a punishable crime. Oddly, it was made a crime in 1997 but only punishable by law in 2004. Not entirely sure how that works as I'm not a lawyer but it does tell you a bit about the importance accorded to women's rights. So if you feel things are a little unjust, consider it a temporary overcompensation for the past rather than a personal attack.
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Old 15.08.2020, 22:18
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

I find this thread odd...

Where are/who are all these women out to have a baby with a guy they hardly know and battle a lifetime for a few hundreds a month?

I see the discussion going as if these women are out in throves looking for sperm... Is this really happening?

Who would want a child under these circumstances? I am probably old and naive but baffled....
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  #44  
Old 15.08.2020, 23:06
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

I find this thread odd too. A Swiss woman I know was refused a training spot as a nurse because she had had a child out of wedlock. Loose morals („unsittlicher Lebenswandel“). She raised that kid on her own working full-time in kitchens, with zero child support; this was in the 70s and 80s. After 1968 and after even Swiss women finally got to vote. When my parents married, my mother would have needed my father‘s permission to go to work. All this is pretty recent. So is equal pay - oh, wait, we‘re not there yet, are we? If you haven‘t seen it, I highly recommend the comedy/drama „Die göttliche Ordnung“ as an introduction to the history of women‘s rights in this conservative little country. Even today, a woman is killed every two weeks on Switzerland by her current or former intimate partner, usually when she tries to walk out. The other way round does occur, but rarely, and usually after decade-long stories like those of Francine Hughes. Speaking of the US, what will happen if RBG doesn‘t survive this presidency? Seems to me the consensus here is a bit too glibly dismissive of how recent and how hard-won some pretty basic women‘s rights are, and how tenuous our hold on them is in the face of a mounting backlash. Ever heard of incels? There‘s a good interview with analyst Jürg Acklin in today‘s Tages-Anzeiger if you read German, about the rage induced by the loss of privileges men have long taken for granted. Don‘t get me wrong. I like men. If they use their brains. If that sounds opinionated, I‘m the first to admit that I haven‘t always used mine: I‘m raising an accidental but very welcome kid on my own too, with no alimony but no complaints. Not all women are scheming hussies. (Expletive deleted.)
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  #45  
Old 16.08.2020, 00:06
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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If a man rapes a woman and she falls pregnant, she is 100% entitled to terminate the baby. If a woman stops taking the pill but doesn't inform her partner, she is 100% entitled to keep the baby and demand child support. That's feminism and equality for you in the 21st century.
It's 2020, now that we know bcps cause depression and anxiety, most women are refusing to take them... Look up the dropping rates, it's quite drastic.
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  #46  
Old 16.08.2020, 00:43
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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The change in 2017 determined that there's no longer a difference between unmarried and married couples when it comes to alimony for the child's caregiver. The Federal Court (FC) has ruled in 2018 that the minimum amount is the "ExistenzMinimum", the minimum to live here and pay for rent, helath insurance, etc. These amounts for child and caregiver will vary somewhat by Canton, but not by that much.

In the above case from 2018, a couple in their early 30ies with one 4yr old child, the FC ruled that the child gets 2070 CHF, the mother (who appears to be the fulltime caregiver) 1600 in the first year.

In OP's case, who's often away hence 100% care by the mother, that's ...
10 * 12 * (2070 + 1600)
6 * 12 * (2070 + 800)
4 * 12 * (2070 + 0)
=====
746'400
=====

... until the child has turned 20. And even this assumes that the mother does work 50% from the child's age 10-15, and 100% afterwards. If she pretends to be unable to land a job, which is trivial to get accepted, the amount increases to 810'000. In OP's case, who appears to be often abroad for long periods there's little chance to get any kind of reduction of the alimony by taking over a part of the childcare.

Obviously there's a clear incentive to not move in together and milk the father some more when the mother finds a new lover.

The father has zero decision rights, but bears full financial responsibility even if the child is born against his will. To deny this is burying the head in the sand.

And even today it's clearly accepted if the mother keeps alienating the child from the father more, the horror stories abound where the KESB fully supports those cu.nts.

Thank you for the very important detail with the new law in 2017. This is some whole other numbers we are talking now. (x6) (Many people in europe will not save up this money in a lifetime). But ok, if thats the law then thats the law i Switzerland.

Urs with the 746'400

and
aSwissInTheUs with 126'000


Can others confirm Urs is right? If this is the number it´s an absolute disaster to get an unplanned child in Switzerland. Can the swiss authorities put you in jail for not paying this? How much power does the swiss government/court have and what are the final consequences for refusing to pay anything? Can they chase you internationally, refuse you swiss visa? How far does their power to inforce this reach?

Ps. I will stick to the financials and law for now. There are a million moral issues with getting an uplanned child from mother/fathers side. I hope it never happens, but i does happen often, so i just want to know the full consquences for a father in case this happens.
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Old 16.08.2020, 01:53
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

You didn't say what your income or place of residence was, but you have a right to minimum existence income as well. If you make 1-2k per month you wouldn't have to pay anything if you live in CH. Still, just use a condom (however it has not been mentioned that even the condom does not work 100% of the times, a residual risk remains).
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Old 16.08.2020, 02:54
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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I really think there's a lot to be said for abstinence. Sure, sex is great, and should be enjoyed.

Abstinence is also very boring. Especially for hormone-filled teenagers and young adults...

AFAIK, places in the US that emphasize abstinence as a way to prevent pregnancies have high teenage-pregnancy-rates...

As OP is probably beyond the "young adult" age, he should just insist on condoms and only have intercourse when sober (to prevent "fumbles").

Is that too much to ask these days?
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  #49  
Old 16.08.2020, 05:07
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Here's a thought - only date women who have more to lose than you in the event of getting pregnant. And who are not opposed to abortion.
This is basically my dating philosophy... although I would replace "only date women with more to lose than you" simply with: "only date women who are financially independent and have their own career". This pretty much negates (as much as possible) the risks.
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Old 16.08.2020, 09:04
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

Okay, here's a response that is, as far as possible, about the financial and organisational aspects only.

The man and woman engage in sex, such that sperm can get to the vagina. Other than in cases of rape, both the man and the woman are each fully responsible for the financial consequences of any child that may result from their intercourse.
Conception happens and the baby is born.

Ideally, the parents can agree, together, about
  • where the baby is going to live (always with the mother, always with the father, part-time with each parent, or mainly with one parent with visits to the other parent)
  • which parent, if either, will stop working (although the mother has maternity leave and, if the new vote goes through, so will the father have paternity leave, but sadly much less so), or will reduce his/her working hours, so as to care for the child
  • whether the parents will pay for child-care so that they can both go to work
  • the financial needs of the child based on all of the above factors and the income of each parent.

Many sets of parents [of an unintended child] really do work this out by themselves, without ever having to go to Court about it. It is wise to write up the agreement and both parties sign it, and sometimes it is wise to formalise in some way.

If no agreement can be reached, the parents can appeal to a mediator, or to the KESB (child and adult protection agency) - which has had some very negative press - or take each other to Court, possibly by spending some more money on engaging lawyers.

The authorities compare each parent's current earnings and living circumstances and rule on how much each parent needs to live on. This varies according to the real circumstances, but can be about (and I'm over-simplifying the figures here, just to explain) Fr. 2'000 to Fr. 4'000.

For illustration purposes, let's just assume that the arrangement is that the baby will permanently live with the mother, and never with the father. Then, he must pay.

The authorities will say (more or less): he earns Fr. 5'000 and needs the minimum (let's call it Fr. 3'000) to live, so that leaves Fr. 2'000 available, as a basis for determining how much child-support he must pay her.
If he earns only Fr. 1'000, and has no assets that he could use up, this means that he, himself, will need to be on Social Security, so he can't pay her anything.

Even so, the amount he could/should pay her will be specified, so that she can claim it from him, later, if ever he does have the money.

If there is a ruling determining that he must pay, and he does not, things will escalate until his income is claimed, for example by an order over his salary.



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Can the swiss authorities put you in jail for not paying this? How much power does the swiss government/court have and what are the final consequences for refusing to pay anything? Can they chase you internationally, refuse you swiss visa? How far does their power to inforce this reach?

Ps. I will stick to the financials and law for now. There are a million moral issues with getting an uplanned child from mother/fathers side. I hope it never happens, but i does happen often, so i just want to know the full consquences for a father in case this happens.

Last edited by doropfiz; 16.08.2020 at 09:52.
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  #51  
Old 16.08.2020, 09:43
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Abstinence is also very boring. Especially for hormone-filled teenagers and young adults...
Not only boring but completely unrealistic. It is like with food, people don't treat their body with respect and over-eat or eat evil things. Solution wouldn't be to ban food.

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AFAIK, places in the US that emphasize abstinence as a way to prevent pregnancies have high teenage-pregnancy-rates.
Indeed. Forbidden fruit and all that jazz.
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  #52  
Old 16.08.2020, 11:18
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

Everybody bypasses the actual issue of being held responsible without having a say... interesting.
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  #53  
Old 16.08.2020, 12:31
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Everybody bypasses the actual issue of being held responsible without having a say... interesting.

Not really. We've worked out this is what many rape victims and snatch-trapped men have in common.
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Old 16.08.2020, 13:21
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Okay, here's a response that is, as far as possible, about the financial and organisational aspects only.

The man and woman engage in sex, such that sperm can get to the vagina. Other than in cases of rape, both the man and the woman are each fully responsible for the financial consequences of any child that may result from their intercourse.
Conception happens and the baby is born.

Ideally, the parents can agree, together, about
  • where the baby is going to live (always with the mother, always with the father, part-time with each parent, or mainly with one parent with visits to the other parent)
  • which parent, if either, will stop working (although the mother has maternity leave and, if the new vote goes through, so will the father have paternity leave, but sadly much less so), or will reduce his/her working hours, so as to care for the child
  • whether the parents will pay for child-care so that they can both go to work
  • the financial needs of the child based on all of the above factors and the income of each parent.

Many sets of parents [of an unintended child] really do work this out by themselves, without ever having to go to Court about it. It is wise to write up the agreement and both parties sign it, and sometimes it is wise to formalise in some way.

If no agreement can be reached, the parents can appeal to a mediator, or to the KESB (child and adult protection agency) - which has had some very negative press - or take each other to Court, possibly by spending some more money on engaging lawyers.

The authorities compare each parent's current earnings and living circumstances and rule on how much each parent needs to live on. This varies according to the real circumstances, but can be about (and I'm over-simplifying the figures here, just to explain) Fr. 2'000 to Fr. 4'000.

For illustration purposes, let's just assume that the arrangement is that the baby will permanently live with the mother, and never with the father. Then, he must pay.

The authorities will say (more or less): he earns Fr. 5'000 and needs the minimum (let's call it Fr. 3'000) to live, so that leaves Fr. 2'000 available, as a basis for determining how much child-support he must pay her.
If he earns only Fr. 1'000, and has no assets that he could use up, this means that he, himself, will need to be on Social Security, so he can't pay her anything.

Even so, the amount he could/should pay her will be specified, so that she can claim it from him, later, if ever he does have the money.

If there is a ruling determining that he must pay, and he does not, things will escalate until his income is claimed, for example by an order over his salary.

Ok. Would you have an idea how much you would have to pay if you earn 50k 100k or 200k a year? Just estimate rates?

Ps. Anyone can confirm Urs and can the government put you to jail?
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Old 16.08.2020, 13:29
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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I find this thread odd too. A Swiss woman I know was refused a training spot as a nurse because she had had a child out of wedlock. Loose morals („unsittlicher Lebenswandel“). She raised that kid on her own working full-time in kitchens, with zero child support; this was in the 70s and 80s. After 1968 and after even Swiss women finally got to vote. When my parents married, my mother would have needed my father‘s permission to go to work. All this is pretty recent. So is equal pay - oh, wait, we‘re not there yet, are we? If you haven‘t seen it, I highly recommend the comedy/drama „Die göttliche Ordnung“ as an introduction to the history of women‘s rights in this conservative little country. Even today, a woman is killed every two weeks on Switzerland by her current or former intimate partner, usually when she tries to walk out. The other way round does occur, but rarely, and usually after decade-long stories like those of Francine Hughes. Speaking of the US, what will happen if RBG doesn‘t survive this presidency? Seems to me the consensus here is a bit too glibly dismissive of how recent and how hard-won some pretty basic women‘s rights are, and how tenuous our hold on them is in the face of a mounting backlash. Ever heard of incels? There‘s a good interview with analyst Jürg Acklin in today‘s Tages-Anzeiger if you read German, about the rage induced by the loss of privileges men have long taken for granted. Don‘t get me wrong. I like men. If they use their brains. If that sounds opinionated, I‘m the first to admit that I haven‘t always used mine: I‘m raising an accidental but very welcome kid on my own too, with no alimony but no complaints. Not all women are scheming hussies. (Expletive deleted.)
Excellent post, missenglish. Btw, I have seen the „Die göttliche Ordnung“ too, highly recommended. One of my acquaintances organises seminars on various themes that are related to Swiss history/culture/society and that's why I got to see it but am glad I did.
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Old 16.08.2020, 14:46
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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I find this thread odd...

Where are/who are all these women out to have a baby with a guy they hardly know and battle a lifetime for a few hundreds a month?

I see the discussion going as if these women are out in throves looking for sperm... Is this really happening?

Who would want a child under these circumstances? I am probably old and naive but baffled....
It isn’t always immediate. I have a genuine example: a friend here in CH whose partner has looked after the kids while he worked while they were babies. Now school age she refuses to work, refuses to look for work and refuses to train to get the skills to work. She is determined to remain a non working mother for as long as she possibly can, ideally not working again ever.

In these circumstances the only sad option is divorce but in this path, the judge is likely to allow the children to stay with the mother and my friend has to pay maintenance for both the children and the mother. This strikes me as unfair, because the mother in this instance is refusing to work, which is the same kind of principle of wanting a meal ticket that some pregnancies are driven by. The roles could easily be swapped here btw this isn’t a mother / father thing if it wa s the father staying at home and refused to work it would be the same outcome. It feels that the person who takes the work role does disadvantage themselves in the case of divorce as they are likely to lose the majority custody while still paying for everyone.
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Old 16.08.2020, 16:18
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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It isn’t always immediate. I have a genuine example: a friend here in CH whose partner has looked after the kids while he worked while they were babies. Now school age she refuses to work, refuses to look for work and refuses to train to get the skills to work. She is determined to remain a non working mother for as long as she possibly can, ideally not working again ever.

In these circumstances the only sad option is divorce but in this path, the judge is likely to allow the children to stay with the mother and my friend has to pay maintenance for both the children and the mother. This strikes me as unfair, because the mother in this instance is refusing to work, which is the same kind of principle of wanting a meal ticket that some pregnancies are driven by. The roles could easily be swapped here btw this isn’t a mother / father thing if it wa s the father staying at home and refused to work it would be the same outcome. It feels that the person who takes the work role does disadvantage themselves in the case of divorce as they are likely to lose the majority custody while still paying for everyone.
Without knowing more it's very hard to judge.

Yes there is the possibility that this person is staying at home blowing soap bubbles all day OR she is taking care of the home, the children, and doing the "second shift" many women do and for which men are unaware of. Perhaps she thinks working AND doing all that is not feasible. Who knows....marriage is about conversation and compromise and finding solutions that work.... Why would he divorce her because she does not want to work? Again I would only see this as a possibility if she is really at home doing absolutely nothing.... (I know no women like that, none at all...)
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Old 16.08.2020, 17:40
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Ok. Would you have an idea how much you would have to pay if you earn 50k 100k or 200k a year? Just estimate rates?

Ps. Anyone can confirm Urs and can the government put you to jail?
As far as I know, the current concept of child support is not just to pay the minimum. In other words, if a wealthy man has fathered a child, if a wealthy woman has borne a child, then the child has a right to enjoy a higher level of support. In other words, the support for the child will increase in proportion to the parents' financial abilities.

As others have pointed out, this can work eiter way around: Should, for example, the child live full-time with the father, then the mother will be the one to pay the child-support. The employed parent may also reasonably be called upon to pay alimony for the parent who is staying at home full-time to look after the child, at least while the child is small.

As far as your question about jail is concerned, I think it doesn't easily get that far, if ever. After all, the primary aim is to ensure that the parents fulfil their financial responsibilities so that the child is safe, and jail will not necessarily help in that. Although admittedly, jail does give some people a huge fright, so that, afterwards, they change their behaviour and get on with doing what they have to do, the right way.

After an amount has been agreed between the parents or decreed by an offical order,if the parent who is supposed to pay child-support (which, again, may be the mother or the father) defaults, then their salary can be docked. The steps will be some variation of the following escalation:
  1. the receiving parent makes a formal demand
  2. the receiving parent appeals to the authorities for help
  3. a formal demand is made, such as a Betreibung /poursuite
  4. if the paying parent still does not pay, then a formal order will be given to seize a first slice of their salary, i.e. the employer is ordered to deduct that amount and pay it (probably to the KESB), and then pay only the remaining slice out to the employee.
At any stage along the way, the paying parent could choose to respond to the demands and to enter mediation to try to settle things peacefully, so that it never gets as far as an order claiming directly against their salary.

If the paying parent has no salary, or insufficient, then their financial (and possibly social) circumstances are likely to be investigated fully. This is because the social workers know every sly trick in the book, and they are going to know to check the assets of the defaulting parent, and whether they do have another source of income that is just not being declared honestly, and how, in fact, they survive.

In the meantime, the receiving parent's circumstances are likely to be investigated, too, to see whether the child is slipping down into poverty.

If both parents cannot fulfil their responsibilities to ensure that there is enough money to house, feed and clothe the child, and ensure that the child has medical attention, etc., then the child will need support from the State. And this is likely to be granted for the parent with whom the child lives, too, at least while the child is small.

Even if the State Social Security takes on the support of the child, this is seen as a temporary measure only, so that if and when either parent could take on the support of the child, the Social Security will no longer do so. It is also regarded as an advance, so that if either parent subsequently gets into financially strong circumstances (and the definition of what counts as good financial circumstance varies from canton to canton), they may be called upon to refund, to the State, some or all of the Social Security support that had been paid out for the child.
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Old 16.08.2020, 18:01
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Everybody bypasses the actual issue of being held responsible without having a say... interesting.
Not really. I think this thread has focussed quite a lot on the responsibility of every man to deal with his ejaculate, and of every a woman to deal with her potential ability to conceive. That is where the responsibility starts, and that is where everyone, both man and woman, has full say in what happens - other than if a woman conceives through rape.

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Not really. We've worked out this is what many rape victims and snatch-trapped men have in common.
I don't agree with equating these two. They are not the same.

I'm completely opposed to trickery and deceipt. It would be cruel (to the man and to any child so conceived) were a woman to lie, and tell a man that she was using contraception, when she was not. By no means am I condoning such dishonest (and very, very stupid!) behaviour. Even so, it is 100% the man's decision whether he chooses to believe what the woman said and throw caution to the wind, or whether he chooses to take full responsibility for where he puts his ejaculate. In that decision, he has 100% say, 100% autonomy, and he bears 100% responsibility for his actions and their consequences.

This works the other way round, too. If a woman knows, for certain, that she does not want to conceive, ever, or not now, or not with this man, and then as they're moving towards sex, he tells her: "Oh, we don't need a condom, I've had a vasectomy," it is still her full responsibility to decide about her own fertility and whether or not she chooses to believe what he says. In that decision, she has 100% say, 100% autonomy, and she bears 100% responsibility for her actions and their consequences.

If, through consensual sex, a child is conceived, then both those adults bear full responsibility for the child they made - even if becomeing parents was not their plan.

A rape victim, however, is in a completely different position. A rape victim has no say whatsoever. The sexual violence happens to them, is done to them, from outside to inside, by the 100% decision of the perpetrator alone.
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Old 16.08.2020, 18:33
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Without knowing more it's very hard to judge.

Yes there is the possibility that this person is staying at home blowing soap bubbles all day OR she is taking care of the home, the children, and doing the "second shift" many women do and for which men are unaware of. Perhaps she thinks working AND doing all that is not feasible. Who knows....marriage is about conversation and compromise and finding solutions that work.... Why would he divorce her because she does not want to work? Again I would only see this as a possibility if she is really at home doing absolutely nothing.... (I know no women like that, none at all...)
Impressively sexist response given as I made clear it doesn't matter whether this is male or female working or staying at home. I have several friends who are stay at home dads, do their working wives also not know about this second shift or is this blindness only reserved for males ?

I think there is soap bubbles involved in most cases. When you have young toddlers its all hands on deck and both parents in a marriage are the caring and housework required to stay afloat during that busy period, there is effort in terms of care and housework from both partners. Post this, the children now go to school during the day, at which point there is an expectation that the home partner starts working. I believe this is also reflected in cases of separation where the now single partners are expected to seek work. The idea that if all your children are in school then you have a slave like existence keeping the house clean is an urban myth. Work is involved, but it does not consume that level of hours - I think this is what you have down as your "second shift" ? though with the kids now at school im not sure what the first shift is now involving.

Anyway, as you dismissed the point with a one liner "without knowing more its difficult to tell" what further information would you like ? the key facts are 1) children now at school 2) stay at home partner asked to start looking for part time work to assist with family income 3) partner refuses to even consider working.

I am happy to add more if needed.
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