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Old 16.08.2020, 20:24
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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It isn’t always immediate. I have a genuine example: a friend here in CH whose partner has looked after the kids while he worked while they were babies. Now school age she refuses to work, refuses to look for work and refuses to train to get the skills to work. She is determined to remain a non working mother for as long as she possibly can, ideally not working again ever.

In these circumstances the only sad option is divorce but in this path, the judge is likely to allow the children to stay with the mother and my friend has to pay maintenance for both the children and the mother. This strikes me as unfair, because the mother in this instance is refusing to work, which is the same kind of principle of wanting a meal ticket that some pregnancies are driven by. The roles could easily be swapped here btw this isn’t a mother / father thing if it wa s the father staying at home and refused to work it would be the same outcome. It feels that the person who takes the work role does disadvantage themselves in the case of divorce as they are likely to lose the majority custody while still paying for everyone.
Did you ask a lawyer specialised in Familienrecht? I honestly don‘t believe a mother of schoolchildren can refuse to work at all (assuming everyone involved is in good health, otherwise it gets rather murky). Details depend on the judge but there are customs and they are changing fast. We divorced almost ten years ago and already back then, if you looked into it, quoting from memory, mothers were expected to get back to part-time jobs (50%ish) by the time their youngest was three, and back to basically self-supporting jobs by the time their youngest was at school. If the parents can get their act together and agree on a suggestion, usually the judge will go along if it’s reasonable. The court‘s main role in such cases is to make sure the kid in question won‘t need state support later on. The amount of alimony is heavily dependent on the father‘s income. Still shaking my head at the original question.
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Old 16.08.2020, 20:57
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Did you ask a lawyer specialised in Familienrecht? I honestly don‘t believe a mother of schoolchildren can refuse to work at all (assuming everyone involved is in good health, otherwise it gets rather murky). Details depend on the judge but there are customs and they are changing fast. We divorced almost ten years ago and already back then, if you looked into it, quoting from memory, mothers were expected to get back to part-time jobs (50%ish) by the time their youngest was three, and back to basically self-supporting jobs by the time their youngest was at school. If the parents can get their act together and agree on a suggestion, usually the judge will go along if it’s reasonable. The court‘s main role in such cases is to make sure the kid in question won‘t need state support later on. The amount of alimony is heavily dependent on the father‘s income. Still shaking my head at the original question.
...darn, those were the German numbers, sorry (we‘re multinational). Just looked it up. Swiss practice reflects Switzerland‘s more conservative approach to childcare: 50% by school age. Source: https://anwalt-malerberg.ch/checklis...eit-scheidung/ (This actually makes sense in some places, as childcare outside the family is still not available everywhere. There is a time lag of roughly one generation compared to the neighbouring countries.)
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Old 16.08.2020, 21:09
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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There are a million moral issues with getting an uplanned child from mother/fathers side. I hope it never happens, but i does happen often, so i just want to know the full consquences for a father in case this happens.
If it does happen, the „full consequences“ depend mainly on the quality of your relationship with the woman you made a mother. Which has everything to do with your approach not only to women but also to life. To be honest, the question reminds me of „Games People Play“.
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Old 16.08.2020, 22:18
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Impressively sexist response given as I made clear it doesn't matter whether this is male or female working or staying at home. I have several friends who are stay at home dads, do their working wives also not know about this second shift or is this blindness only reserved for males ?

I think there is soap bubbles involved in most cases. When you have young toddlers its all hands on deck and both parents in a marriage are the caring and housework required to stay afloat during that busy period, there is effort in terms of care and housework from both partners. Post this, the children now go to school during the day, at which point there is an expectation that the home partner starts working. I believe this is also reflected in cases of separation where the now single partners are expected to seek work. The idea that if all your children are in school then you have a slave like existence keeping the house clean is an urban myth. Work is involved, but it does not consume that level of hours - I think this is what you have down as your "second shift" ? though with the kids now at school im not sure what the first shift is now involving.

Anyway, as you dismissed the point with a one liner "without knowing more its difficult to tell" what further information would you like ? the key facts are 1) children now at school 2) stay at home partner asked to start looking for part time work to assist with family income 3) partner refuses to even consider working.

I am happy to add more if needed.
No apologies for my "sexist" statements as most stats still show that in dual income/dual career couples, women still do a lot more around home and kids. Your example.may be the exception of course but I will assume mainstream.

But hey I can make it gender neutral if it makes you feel better.

You posted a one view of the situation. We have not way of knowing if the stay at home partner feels supported by the working partner. Stay at home partner usually deals with a huge amount of work the other partner is unaware of - cleaning, managing repairs, organizing meals, shopping, scheduling kids playdates and appointments, buying and sorting new clothes and shoes, kids vacation planning etc etc etc. The list goes on and it's a BIG JOB.
I have no idea what conversation was had in the example you gave. I have no idea of the income the one working partner brings (is it enough to support the family's lifestyle of choice?). I have no idea if working partner travels extensively for work, works tremendous overtime etc etc etc. So without all those information, you simply stating "partner does not want to work" is way too simplistic and your are presenting just one view.

Better now that this is gender neutral?
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Old 16.08.2020, 22:59
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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No apologies for my "sexist" statements as most stats still show that in dual income/dual career couples, women still do a lot more around home and kids.
Those so-called stats are worthless until they use measured data by some neutral observer (be that a person or some kind of machine) instead of declared ones by those polled.

You probably know that most drivers rate themselves above average, which is mathematically impossible. The reasons that cause this result make the statements in other polls worthless as well.
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Old 16.08.2020, 23:31
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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No apologies for my "sexist" statements as most stats still show that in dual income/dual career couples, women still do a lot more around home and kids. Your example.may be the exception of course but I will assume mainstream.

But hey I can make it gender neutral if it makes you feel better.

You posted a one view of the situation. We have not way of knowing if the stay at home partner feels supported by the working partner. Stay at home partner usually deals with a huge amount of work the other partner is unaware of - cleaning, managing repairs, organizing meals, shopping, scheduling kids playdates and appointments, buying and sorting new clothes and shoes, kids vacation planning etc etc etc. The list goes on and it's a BIG JOB.
I have no idea what conversation was had in the example you gave. I have no idea of the income the one working partner brings (is it enough to support the family's lifestyle of choice?). I have no idea if working partner travels extensively for work, works tremendous overtime etc etc etc. So without all those information, you simply stating "partner does not want to work" is way too simplistic and your are presenting just one view.

Better now that this is gender neutral?
It’s a bit better, though I’d have liked to focus on stay at home dads as the example.

Your still very keen for ranting on about that massive workload at home though, the BIG JOB that seems to take up every moment but when you look at your list some of the items are absurd - managing repairs, arranging vacation, these are not weekly or daily activities they are quarterly events at best. You are again sitting behind the myth that once children are at school during the day there is still a vast workload and there simply is not, which is the very reason the majority of households at this point move to dual income with the stay at home partner moving to part time work.

It is fair and reasonable that once the children are back in school both parents work, if one parent does part time work they are then supplementing their time with the duties needed for managing the kids - cleaning, picking them up at 3, doing the afternoon shift and so forth.

If the partner refuses to work, regardless of statements about what income they currently have, then this is unequal from an effort perspective in the relationship and will lead ultimately to resentment and potentially divorce.
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Old 16.08.2020, 23:48
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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It’s a bit better, though I’d have liked to focus on stay at home dads as the example.

Your still very keen for ranting on about that massive workload at home though, the BIG JOB that seems to take up every moment but when you look at your list some of the items are absurd - managing repairs, arranging vacation, these are not weekly or daily activities they are quarterly events at best. You are again sitting behind the myth that once children are at school during the day there is still a vast workload and there simply is not, which is the very reason the majority of households at this point move to dual income with the stay at home partner moving to part time work.

It is fair and reasonable that once the children are back in school both parents work, if one parent does part time work they are then supplementing their time with the duties needed for managing the kids - cleaning, picking them up at 3, doing the afternoon shift and so forth.

If the partner refuses to work, regardless of statements about what income they currently have, then this is unequal from an effort perspective in the relationship and will lead ultimately to resentment and potentially divorce.
As said, they cannot legitimately refuse to return to work, so what exactly is this argument about? Repeat: there was a Federal Court ruling in 2018 which states (according to the lawyer‘s site quoted above) that divorcées can be expected to return to work 50% when their youngest starts school, 80% around age 12 and full-time around age sixteen.
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Old 17.08.2020, 00:01
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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As said, they cannot legitimately refuse to return to work, so what exactly is this argument about? Repeat: there was a Federal Court ruling in 2018 which states (according to the lawyer‘s site quoted above) that divorcées can be expected to return to work 50% when their youngest starts school, 80% around age 12 and full-time around age sixteen.
I think you are referring to the situation after a divorce, when each adult is, in general, supposed to be largely responsible for his/her own income, at least after some transition phase.

Mikers, however, is talking about a situation within a marriage. His friends had children, during which time the man was the breadwinner and the wife stayed home to look after the children, and that seemed to both of them to be the right thing, at the time. Now that the children are older, the husband feels that his wife should also get a job and earn money and contribute to the costs, financialla, as does he, while the wife wants to remain in her role as stay-at-home-parent. In this case, they have a conflict about how to arrange their lives, given that they already do have children, and have had a model of sorting out the earnings and caring that suited them both, for a while. Now, it still suits one, but not the other. That is their conflict: to change or not to change, and if so how much, how to deal with the situation when one partner wants to update their arrangement while the other thinks it's fine as it is, and how to promote or enforce a change.
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Old 17.08.2020, 00:17
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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I think you are referring to the situation after a divorce, when each adult is, in general, supposed to be largely responsible for his/her own income, at least after some transition phase.

Mikers, however, is talking about a situation within a marriage. His friends had children, during which time the man was the breadwinner and the wife stayed home to look after the children, and that seemed to both of them to be the right thing, at the time. Now that the children are older, the husband feels that his wife should also get a job and earn money and contribute to the costs, financialla, as does he, while the wife wants to remain in her role as stay-at-home-parent. In this case, they have a conflict about how to arrange their lives, given that they already do have children, and have had a model of sorting out the earnings and caring that suited them both, for a while. Now, it still suits one, but not the other. That is their conflict: to change or not to change, and if so how much, how to deal with the situation when one partner wants to update their arrangement while the other thinks it's fine as it is, and how to promote or enforce a change.
Thanks! That penny took a long time to drop. I drew the wrong conclusion from the last sentence: losing custody and still paying for everyone. However, I find it hard to imagine that two adults who disagree on something so fundamental could actually still want to stay together. Personally, I‘d want to press some kind of reset button. An amicable divorce can be less awful for everyone (including the kids) than decades of unresolved conflict.
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Old 17.08.2020, 05:35
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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It’s a bit better, though I’d have liked to focus on stay at home dads as the example.

Your still very keen for ranting on about that massive workload at home though, the BIG JOB that seems to take up every moment but when you look at your list some of the items are absurd - managing repairs, arranging vacation, these are not weekly or daily activities they are quarterly events at best. You are again sitting behind the myth that once children are at school during the day there is still a vast workload and there simply is not, which is the very reason the majority of households at this point move to dual income with the stay at home partner moving to part time work.

It is fair and reasonable that once the children are back in school both parents work, if one parent does part time work they are then supplementing their time with the duties needed for managing the kids - cleaning, picking them up at 3, doing the afternoon shift and so forth.

If the partner refuses to work, regardless of statements about what income they currently have, then this is unequal from an effort perspective in the relationship and will lead ultimately to resentment and potentially divorce.
And you are stuck with your opinion that it's fair and reasonable to work. By whose standards? This is a conversation for a couple to have and without much more info we have no idea what is fair or what not. The non working partner will have reasons which again, unless we assume he/she is just a leech wanting to sit at home and do nothing, then are just as legitimate.

Managing a household and children is a huge job. Anyone who has done it can tell you that and the fact that you are just completely discounting it is a real issue that our society faces.
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Old 17.08.2020, 05:39
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Thanks! That penny took a long time to drop. I drew the wrong conclusion from the last sentence: losing custody and still paying for everyone. However, I find it hard to imagine that two adults who disagree on something so fundamental could actually still want to stay together. Personally, I‘d want to press some kind of reset button. An amicable divorce can be less awful for everyone (including the kids) than decades of unresolved conflict.
The hardship may be around the fact that after years of looking after the children and presumably the household and doing this big job alone, the non working spouse may feel daunted taking on outside work as well.

This is a big shift where the working spouse will also be requested to shift their working model to take on more home responsibility. Maybe his/her job will not allow it travel, long working hours, shifts etc). Or given the comments maybe the working partner thinks this is not needed because now that the kids are school aged, there is not much to do #sarcastic.

So I am not sure I would jump to divorce without knowing more. Seems to me like the story has been told very one sided and in a bit of a simplistic way.
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Old 17.08.2020, 05:45
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Those so-called stats are worthless until they use measured data by some neutral observer (be that a person or some kind of machine) instead of declared ones by those polled.

You probably know that most drivers rate themselves above average, which is mathematically impossible. The reasons that cause this result make the statements in other polls worthless as well.
Discount them for self reporting if you wish, they are still important numbers and unless this is resolved, I believe it is a big issue that our society has.
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Old 17.08.2020, 08:35
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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And you are stuck with your opinion that it's fair and reasonable to work. By whose standards? This is a conversation for a couple to have and without much more info we have no idea what is fair or what not. The non working partner will have reasons which again, unless we assume he/she is just a leech wanting to sit at home and do nothing, then are just as legitimate.

Managing a household and children is a huge job. Anyone who has done it can tell you that and the fact that you are just completely discounting it is a real issue that our society faces.
Managing a household and children is a huge job while the children are very small. once they go to school the burden is less - not gone, but reduced - which is why in all scenarios - in divorce, in separation and also within a normal relationship, it is expected that the formerly stay at home partner can now start looking to work part time. Hiding behind "this is a huge job" is the same argument as in the workplace - that many surveys have shown how the people who bemoan themselves as always being "busy" in fact have lower workloads.

In terms of experience doing it, I don't need people to tell me it, as I have been through it myself with my children who are now 6,7 and 9, along with my partner who heroically managed the children while they were toddlers and we both shared the housework and now works part time as the children are taking more time at school.

Its people harking on about to the model of "bread winning father, stay at home mother" that stereotypes the 70's era sexist views of roles in society and does not help with gender independent role progression.
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Old 17.08.2020, 08:38
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

Isn't it the couple alone supposed to sort out their own dilemmas, decide on how to share their work load and financial burden without constantly seeking advice and approval from friends or "benevolent" relatives? What works for some might not work for others.
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Old 17.08.2020, 10:52
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Ok. Would you have an idea how much you would have to pay if you earn 50k 100k or 200k a year? Just estimate rates?

Ps. Anyone can confirm Urs and can the government put you to jail?

Any updates on the fact side of things? Thank you.

Ps. Children are hard work and a major opportunity cost, i think we all know that. Doing it with someone you don't like is probably 3x the emotional exhaustion (if any experience please conform).
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Old 17.08.2020, 11:00
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Doing it with someone you don't like is probably 3x the emotional exhaustion.
Making children or taking care of them..
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Old 17.08.2020, 11:36
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Isn't it the couple alone supposed to sort out their own dilemmas, decide on how to share their work load and financial burden without constantly seeking advice and approval from friends or "benevolent" relatives? What works for some might not work for others.
If that were the case, most women wouldn't be assumed to be less good at their job the moment they have kids.
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Old 17.08.2020, 15:03
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Without knowing more it's very hard to judge.

Yes there is the possibility that this person is staying at home blowing soap bubbles all day OR she is taking care of the home, the children, and doing the "second shift" many women do and for which men are unaware of. Perhaps she thinks working AND doing all that is not feasible. Who knows....marriage is about conversation and compromise and finding solutions that work.... Why would he divorce her because she does not want to work? Again I would only see this as a possibility if she is really at home doing absolutely nothing.... (I know no women like that, none at all...)
Truly, most working women with children that I know are so burned out, that they're considering how long they can push off divorce. Many are past the point of no return because their husbands are just not doing any of the work required to keep the household running because they simply don't think of it. I don't know, but I can see under those circumstances, maybe it's better to be a housewife and have at least a few hours to myself every weekday instead of on days I'm too sick to work?
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Old 17.08.2020, 15:24
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Many are past the point of no return because their husbands are just not doing any of the work required to keep the household running because they simply don't think of it.
If the men don't think of it that means that there is no communication between the husband and wife. For someone to be "at breaking point and near divorce" I would expect that any husband would be painfully aware of their failings to contribute to the running of a household because there should have been many onversations leading to that point.
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Old 17.08.2020, 15:24
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

the divorce stats for stay at home dads once the kids grow up are pretty bad, may want to look them up

it seems the wives get rid of them once they are no longer 'useful'
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