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  #81  
Old 17.08.2020, 15:39
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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it seems the wives get rid of them once they are no longer 'useful'
I think it would be callous to suggest that it's anything to do with "discarding due to lack of usefulness". I personally think that it's because SAHD's (Stay At Home Dads) are not performing their natural roles as providers and that over time this negatively changes both the way they view themselves and the way their spouse views them. I think it leads to a reduction in self-respect and feelings of manliness, he takes on more feminine traits and aspects, and I think that despite best efforts from both sides that this instinctively turns women off.

However helpful and appropriate being a stay at home dad feels to the family situation at the time, however much a SAHD willingly and bravely sacrifice in the best interests of the kids (and it is a hell of a sacrifice to make for a man or a woman to give up their work), I strongly believe that over time a woman will not be attracted to a man who takes on a maternal role, especially when the kids leave home and are no longer there to distract from the situation. I think I read a study from Harvard that SAHD's were over 30% more likely to get divorced. I'll see if I can find it.

Should I have kids I will never be a SAHD, even if my partner earns more than I. On the flip side, neither do I want a stay at home wife and I believe that both parents working is the best solution in these modern and increasingly flexible times.

PS: Yes I am of course generalising here and I am sure it has worked out successfully for some couples.

EDIT - some interesting reads:

Harvard study: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10....03122416655340

https://mensdivorce.com/stay-home-fathers/

https://www.liveabout.com/stay-at-ho...andard-1102697

https://www.brownlawoffices.com/blog/daddy-duty/

Last edited by Chuff; 18.08.2020 at 05:48.
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  #82  
Old 17.08.2020, 15:47
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Managing a household and children is a huge job while the children are very small. once they go to school the burden is less - not gone, but reduced - which is why in all scenarios - in divorce, in separation and also within a normal relationship, it is expected that the formerly stay at home partner can now start looking to work part time. Hiding behind "this is a huge job" is the same argument as in the workplace - that many surveys have shown how the people who bemoan themselves as always being "busy" in fact have lower workloads.

In terms of experience doing it, I don't need people to tell me it, as I have been through it myself with my children who are now 6,7 and 9, along with my partner who heroically managed the children while they were toddlers and we both shared the housework and now works part time as the children are taking more time at school.

Its people harking on about to the model of "bread winning father, stay at home mother" that stereotypes the 70's era sexist views of roles in society and does not help with gender independent role progression.
If I’m understanding you correctly, you are essentially against stay-at-home parenting beyond school age?

I’m really glad my husband has been 100% behind me staying at home for the duration of child-rearing from day one ... even if he has also made it clear that if I choose to not work that impacts our spending and saving capabilities. When kids arrive I will be so grateful for his understanding and support regardless of what decision we end up making as a couple to best fit our particular situation.

I find it just as unfortunate to push a stay-at-home parent back to work as it is to insist that one parent stay home. These are decisions that should be made by the couple alone for the good of each other and their children. I grew up around a lot of single income families and am still here in Switzerland around many single earners as well as double earners. Yes the lifestyle is different on one salary but if that is what is best for the couple then they make it work.
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  #83  
Old 17.08.2020, 15:56
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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If I’m understanding you correctly, you are essentially against stay-at-home parenting beyond school age?

I’m really glad my husband has been 100% behind me staying at home for the duration of child-rearing from day one ... even if he has also made it clear that if I choose to not work that impacts our spending and saving capabilities. When kids arrive I will be so grateful for his understanding and support regardless of what decision we end up making as a couple to best fit our particular situation.

I find it just as unfortunate to push a stay-at-home parent back to work as it is to insist that one parent stay home. These are decisions that should be made by the couple alone for the good of each other and their children. I grew up around a lot of single income families and am still here in Switzerland around many single earners as well as double earners. Yes the lifestyle is different on one salary but if that is what is best for the couple then they make it work.
No that would be too blunt. If it's what you wish to do, as above in your example, absolutely its a great solution and the children will have a solid upbringing. The point is somewhat further back - the example of being when in a relationship where one parent unlaterally refuses to put in extra effort without justification. So in this example, if the children are in school more regularly and the stay at home parent is requested to work by the currently working one, they simply refuse and demand to carry on parenting. In this case I think that is unbalanced and will lead to resentment. The conversation got sidetracked into a bit of a rant about being a stay at home parent being the hardest job in the world which I dont accept but that was an offshoot.

I have no objection to the parent who is at home staying at home, or indeed the working parent perhaps moving to 50% and accepting a lower income so there can be even more local co-parenting for the kids, however its a financial luxury few can afford in switzerland. The requirements of parenting children change with age and there comes a point where the intensity required lowers. At this point, if the working parent makes a request for the other parent to start making a financial contribution, it isnt unreasonable.
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Old 17.08.2020, 15:57
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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However helpful and appropriate being a stay at home dad feels to the family situation at the time, however much a SAHD willingly and bravely sacrifice in the best interests of the kids (and it is a hell of a sacrifice to make for a man or a woman to give up their work), I strongly believe that over time a woman will not be attracted to a man who takes on a maternal role, especially when the kids leave home and are no longer there to distract from the situation. I think I read a study from Harvard that SAHD's were over 30% more likely to get divorced. I'll see if I can find it.
If we want to argue about what is natural, why are we talking about men going out on a bus to an office and making money on a computer by typing words and getting into social discussions about moving electronic money around? There's absolutely nothing "natural" about that. If you want to talk about nature, you'd need the average man saying this to be a builder, a farmer or a butcher.
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  #85  
Old 17.08.2020, 15:59
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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I strongly believe that over time a woman will not be attracted to a man who takes on a maternal role, especially when the kids leave home and are no longer there to distract from the situation. I think I read a study from Harvard that SAHD's were over 30% more likely to get divorced. I'll see if I can find it.
I would explain this result rather with the wifes lower dependance on her husband when she is the breadwinner. At least in switzerland, dunno how it holds up in other countries.
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  #86  
Old 17.08.2020, 16:03
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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If we want to argue about what is natural, why are we talking about men going out on a bus to an office and making money on a computer by typing words and getting into social discussions about moving electronic money around? There's absolutely nothing "natural" about that. If you want to talk about nature, you'd need the average man saying this to be a builder, a farmer or a butcher.
No, that is completely flawed logic based on a very simplistic way of looking at things. Being a provider does not require you to do a manually intensive job, it just requires you to go out and do what you need to do to provide for your family in the best way you can. Obviously the nature of this has got increasingly less manual as time has gone by and as technology has advanced... that should be self-explanatory.

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I would explain this result rather with the wifes lower dependance on her husband when she is the breadwinner. At least in switzerland, dunno how it holds up in other countries.
So you are assuming that the wife who has a career only got married in the first place because she needed a man to depend on? Really?
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Old 17.08.2020, 16:16
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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No, that is completely flawed logic based on a very simplistic way of looking at things. Being a provider does not require you to do a manually intensive job, it just requires you to go out and do what you need to do to provide for your family in the best way you can. Obviously the nature of this has got increasingly less manual as time has gone by and as technology has advanced... that should be self-explanatory.
If the issue is that men and women only marry because they must, instead of wanting to, the marriage is already on shaky grounds. Why would anyone stay married to someone long-term in such a situation? I want someone to emotionally and physically support me in life as I do the same for them. Someone to make me chicken soup when I'm sick or visit me in the hospital when I need a scary surgery. I do the same for him when these things have happened, that's the point of marriage. We're in Switzerland, money isn't difficult to obtain if you have an in-demand qualification.

I don't know, but I wasn't looking for a transactional marriage. If that's what you want, make sure to lay it out at the start, anything else seems cruel.
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Old 17.08.2020, 16:18
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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No that would be too blunt. If it's what you wish to do, as above in your example, absolutely its a great solution and the children will have a solid upbringing. The point is somewhat further back - the example of being when in a relationship where one parent unlaterally refuses to put in extra effort without justification. So in this example, if the children are in school more regularly and the stay at home parent is requested to work by the currently working one, they simply refuse and demand to carry on parenting. In this case I think that is unbalanced and will lead to resentment. The conversation got sidetracked into a bit of a rant about being a stay at home parent being the hardest job in the world which I dont accept but that was an offshoot.

I have no objection to the parent who is at home staying at home, or indeed the working parent perhaps moving to 50% and accepting a lower income so there can be even more local co-parenting for the kids, however its a financial luxury few can afford in switzerland. The requirements of parenting children change with age and there comes a point where the intensity required lowers. At this point, if the working parent makes a request for the other parent to start making a financial contribution, it isnt unreasonable.
Thank you for your detailed answer, that makes much more sense now to me. Of course it should be a conversation between the couple and they should be able to come to an agreement between them. It's still quite sad to me though when I see wives pushed back to work, especially when they have had struggles to get pregnant in the first place, as is the case with a few of my acquaintances. However, in all of these cases there was also a certain lifestyle expectation and real estate/investment/etc decisions that had all been based on the before-children double-income status.

It's interesting though the costs associated with a double-income family. I have a relative who is a financial advisor back in the US and he always asks his clients if they have considered the extra costs of previously-stay-at-home mom (or dad) going back to work, costs like higher taxes, nannies, after-school care, potentially a cleaning service for the house, etc. If one is not making a certain salary, then the costs of going back to work can get close to the salary itself. Of course if the spouse needs to work, psychologically, that's another thing entirely.

We are fortunate that we can make our lifestyle work on one income, and one that is definitely below the EF minimum salary as well Many of my Swiss friends are also single-income families or families where the mother works perhaps 25%. It is definitely doable in Switzerland, but neither will the family be renting mountain chalets and buying season ski passes etc. etc. etc.
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Old 17.08.2020, 16:18
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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If the issue is that men and women only marry because they must, instead of wanting to, the marriage is already on shaky grounds. Why would anyone stay married to someone long-term in such a situation? I want someone to emotionally and physically support me in life as I do the same for them. Someone to make me chicken soup when I'm sick or visit me in the hospital when I need a scary surgery. I do the same for him when these things have happened, that's the point of marriage. We're in Switzerland, money isn't difficult to obtain if you have an in-demand qualification.

I don't know, but I wasn't looking for a transactional marriage. If that's what you want, make sure to lay it out at the start, anything else seems cruel.
What are you talking about... I didn't say anything about marrying anyone because 'they must'. Are you making things up or did you completely misread my post?

smilerbaker and elu were the ones who suggested "no longer needing" a partner.
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Old 17.08.2020, 16:27
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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So you are assuming that the wife who has a career only got married in the first place because she needed a man to depend on? Really?
Reading comprehension

I can imagine that there are a lot of older stay at home wifes in switzerland who simply can't afford to get divorced because they lost every employability.
If they were the breadwinner from the start, one obstacle less to overcome on the way to a divorce --> men get divorced more often.

Just an analytical post without any intend of judging.
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Old 17.08.2020, 16:30
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Reading comprehension


I can imagine that there are a lot of older stay at home wifes in switzerland who simply can't afford to get divorced because they lost every employability.
If they were the breadwinner from the start, one obstacle less to overcome on the way to a divorce --> men get divorced more often.
Well...

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I would explain this result rather with the wifes lower dependance on her husband when she is the breadwinner.
Not sure how else you could read this, unless you just didn't articulate yourself as clearly as intended. If the wife was the breadwinner from the start then logicaly speaking she wouldn't have too much "dependence" on her husband. I think you are barking up the wrong tree with this logic, but that's just my view.
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Old 17.08.2020, 16:32
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Many of my Swiss friends are also single-income families or families where the mother works perhaps 25%. It is definitely doable in Switzerland, but neither will the family be renting mountain chalets and buying season ski passes etc. etc. etc.
It is not just skiing passes and chalets. Her pension looks rather bleak, tbh.
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Old 17.08.2020, 16:40
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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It is not just skiing passes and chalets. Her pension looks rather bleak, tbh.
Well sure. You’re right there. And no one plans to get divorced right? But again, each one makes their own decisions.
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Old 17.08.2020, 16:56
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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I strongly believe that over time a woman will not be attracted to a man who takes on a maternal role, especially when the kids leave home and are no longer there to distract from the situation. I think I read a study from Harvard that SAHD's were over 30% more likely to get divorced. I'll see if I can find it.
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I would explain this result rather with the wifes lower dependance on her husband when she is the breadwinner. At least in switzerland, dunno how it holds up in other countries.

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Well...
Not sure how else you could read this, unless you just didn't articulate yourself as clearly as intended. If the wife was the breadwinner from the start then she wouldn't have any "dependence" on her husband. I think you are barking up the wrong tree with this logic, but that's just my view.
Your argumentation was very roughly: SAHD --> emasculating --> 30% higher chance for divorce

I pointed out (at least tried to) another explanation: SAHD--> women is financially independent from men --> less reason to stay in a dead marriage --> 30 % higher chance for divorce

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So you are assuming that the wife who has a career only got married in the first place because she needed a man to depend on? Really?
I am confused because I never wrote about the women's motive for getting into marriage, I wrote about quitting or not.
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Old 17.08.2020, 17:23
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Can others confirm Urs is right? If this is the number it´s an absolute disaster to get an unplanned child in Switzerland. Can the swiss authorities put you in jail for not paying this? How much power does the swiss government/court have and what are the final consequences for refusing to pay anything? Can they chase you internationally, refuse you swiss visa? How far does their power to inforce this reach?
Ps. I will stick to the financials and law for now. There are a million moral issues with getting an uplanned child from mother/fathers side. I hope it never happens, but i does happen often, so i just want to know the full consquences for a father in case this happens.
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Any updates on the fact side of things? Thank you.

Ps. Children are hard work and a major opportunity cost, i think we all know that. Doing it with someone you don't like is probably 3x the emotional exhaustion (if any experience please conform).
Did you see Post 50, above, in which I answered at least a part of your questions?
https://www.englishforum.ch/3207322-post50.html


You've been focussing on the financial aspect of your possible fatherhood as defined only by child-support payments. They are serious, but that is not all.

The social workers of the KESB, and/or the school teachers and psychologists, or doctors, etc., may well try hard to persuade you to involve yourself in the life of your child. This, because the child didn't ask to be conceived, and it is in the best interests of the child to know who both his/her parents are, and to have access to a relationship with both of them (even if the parents don't get along well with each other).

Becoming involved with your child costs more money, at the very least, plus time and energy. If, for example, the child lives full-time with the mother, and visits you as the father from time to time, you will be responsible for the costs of feeding the child while he/she is with you, and for entrance tickets to the swimming-pool, or the movies, or for buying shoes together on a Saturday morning, etc.
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Old 17.08.2020, 17:59
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Your argumentation was very roughly: SAHD --> emasculating --> 30% higher chance for divorce

I pointed out (at least tried to) another explanation: SAHD--> women is financially independent from men --> less reason to stay in a dead marriage --> 30 % higher chance for divorce

I am confused because I never wrote about the women's motive for getting into marriage, I wrote about quitting or not.
Then we definitely crossed wires somewhere along the line. Anyway, I find your explanation less likely in the context of this discussion... but that's just my opinion and in the end I am happy to agree to disagree.
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Old 17.08.2020, 18:32
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Thank you for your detailed answer, that makes much more sense now to me. Of course it should be a conversation between the couple and they should be able to come to an agreement between them. It's still quite sad to me though when I see wives pushed back to work, especially when they have had struggles to get pregnant in the first place, as is the case with a few of my acquaintances. However, in all of these cases there was also a certain lifestyle expectation and real estate/investment/etc decisions that had all been based on the before-children double-income status.

It's interesting though the costs associated with a double-income family. I have a relative who is a financial advisor back in the US and he always asks his clients if they have considered the extra costs of previously-stay-at-home mom (or dad) going back to work, costs like higher taxes, nannies, after-school care, potentially a cleaning service for the house, etc. If one is not making a certain salary, then the costs of going back to work can get close to the salary itself. Of course if the spouse needs to work, psychologically, that's another thing entirely.

We are fortunate that we can make our lifestyle work on one income, and one that is definitely below the EF minimum salary as well Many of my Swiss friends are also single-income families or families where the mother works perhaps 25%. It is definitely doable in Switzerland, but neither will the family be renting mountain chalets and buying season ski passes etc. etc. etc.
Yes its definitely a balance. we looked at working earlier when the kids were smaller and firstly my partner didn't want to at that time and also we would literally have been working for a loss, it just wasn't worth it. As the kids age this balance slowly tips the other way where part time work can be beneficial but its definitely a case of getting it "right". the swiss tax system is incentivized towards what the swiss want as a traditional family: man out working, women at home cooking and family. It's another of those kind of polite but firm way of steering your behaviour, so yes you need to work out if you a) need to work b) want to work and then c) is it even worth working ?

If your yes across the board, you then only have the small task of finding a part time job!!!
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Old 17.08.2020, 18:40
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

My take - It is my understanding that the scenario presented has not happened yet. Thus
1.) the OP needs professional help as he definitely has trust issues...
OR
2.) he is doing background research for a paper/legal case and you all do the work for him
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Old 17.08.2020, 18:48
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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If the men don't think of it that means that there is no communication between the husband and wife. For someone to be "at breaking point and near divorce" I would expect that any husband would be painfully aware of their failings to contribute to the running of a household because there should have been many onversations leading to that point.
If you make a mess, you clean the mess. If you use dishes, you contribute to the cleaning and putting away of said dishes. If you wear clothes, you can wash clothes and learn to separate colours to avoid ruining the crisp white shirts. If you use a glass, you carry that glass into the kitchen and put it in the dish washer or wash it straight away and dry it if you don't own a dish washer. Etc.

It baffles me that there is the expectation of having to be told what seems like freaking basic stuff to me. If you do not pull your weight, someone else has to do it for you. By not doing it, you are saying that you expect someone to clean up behind you and that is freaking entitled and disrespectful. Your partner is not your manager. She should not have to tell you to do stuff. She should not have to think on your behalf. You should also not require praise for doing things that you had to be reminded to do. (Of course, I am sure that there are some cases where the roles are reversed and the same applies here.)

I fully understand mothers who refuse to go back to work because it frankly looks like what would happen is that they get to do a full day at the office and then put in the unpaid evening shift of household manager/cleaner. The other thing I notice is that cancelling work to deal with kids' issues tends to be what mothers do, not fathers. And, having worked in an office with men who had stay-at-home wives and hearing how they would gossip about working mams staying home because a child was sick or had a school thing, it is clearly expected but still not really considered acceptable. Not once did they suggest that maybe the husband could take over instead.

At least if you stay at home full time, you can approach the household and family management like a job. If the kids are already at kindergarten/school, you can plan your time during the day and conserve your energy for the face to face time of fighting over homework or dealing with other issues. Then it also makes sense for you to be the manager, simply because you know where everything is and coordinate what is happening. Would I want to put in 8-9 hours in an office and then come home to cooking dinner, cleaning, washing AND doing the homework dance plus socialising on the weekend? Probably not. Definitely not. At least not if I was landed with the majority of the work. If it was equally divided, I guess the "team spirit" kicks in but if not, I would be miserable and resent my partner.

On another thread, someone was mentioning that their almost grown-up child did not help with chores. I once dated a Swiss guy like that, his brother is now over 40 and still lives at home because he has not yet found a wife that is prepared to be his mother too. Don't let your kids become that guy or girl, it will not hurt them to pull their weight from a young age and make them self-sufficient in later life.
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Old 17.08.2020, 18:50
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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My take - It is my understanding that the scenario presented has not happened yet. Thus
1.) the OP needs professional help as he definitely has trust issues...
OR
2.) he is doing background research for a paper/legal case and you all do the work for him
It appears that way to me too. All of this just because he doesn't want to wear a condom?

I've heard of planning ahead but this is more Swiss than the Swiss.
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