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  #101  
Old 17.08.2020, 18:59
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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It appears that way to me too. All of this just because he doesn't want to wear a condom?

I've heard of planning ahead but this is more Swiss than the Swiss.
The inflated sense of self-importance is absolutely in line with that of a certain segment of the native male population of Switzerland. And it comes with the matching female counterparts who expect life to be "just so".
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  #102  
Old 17.08.2020, 20:00
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

Regarding the law:
Anymore details on the law parts?
A) Can you be send to jail for not paying?
B) Is the 746'400 CHF total cost correct?
C) Any estimate how much the number fluctuate if you earn 50k, 100k or 200k a year?


I believe money is very secondary for a childs success but personal hours with two stable parents getting life lessons and school support is much more important than 500chf or 3000chf a month. The number 746400chf just seem like an extreme number compared to all other countries in rest of the world. Mistakes can happen but i don't think men should be financially destroyed for 20years if a one-night stand goes wrong. Also it's in my opinion irresponsible for one to raise a child made from a one-night stand, but it's surprisingly common now a days. Since the law does not care about my opinion i want to know what the law will enforce and how significant the consequences are for a single father to have an unplanned child. I think all men/women in Switzerland should know children costs down to the detail. To many people that can handle the costs get children. So please help me get the facts right Numbers wanted!

Ps. I'm not in a case myself, I'm a very safe person so will likely never happen to me, but probably for many other men in years to come. I was just surprised this is not more clearly explained. Many teenagers has no clue how terrible this could impact their future. Especially in Switzerland (746k). Women have a strong natural drive to want kids so will always have a bias to getting them. But letting men pay for 20years to something that was never planned is almost criminal to me. Therefore i want an escape plan if one day all odds turn against me. You never know a woman till she had a few kids with you. (Than your main purpose is done and you will realize if she truly like you. Fyi 50% of the times the case is No and a funnier, better looking & richer guy will take the spot, "divorce statistics")
If kids was a less detrimental financial consequence Switzerland would probably be able to maintain their population size without immigrants. In any case if you want healthy children you need to give them love and attention not trucks of money.
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  #103  
Old 17.08.2020, 20:11
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

D) How can the cost be 746.400. if the cost to a raising child in Switzlerland is around 180.000. Is this not out of balance? Is there any rational behind this law? https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/raising-a-child_swiss-children-cost-up-to-chf1-000-per-month/38482104

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  #104  
Old 17.08.2020, 20:28
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

I agree with you that people spend too little time thinking through the consequences of their actions. And good for you that you are trying to figure it out, at least with regard to the financial aspects of causing conception and the cost of what follows.

It's really simple: either face the consequences, or, if one doesn't want to, then just don't do the action which causes those consequences.

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Women have a strong natural drive to want kids so will always have a bias to getting them. But letting men pay for 20years to something that was never planned is almost criminal to me. Therefore i want an escape plan if one day all odds turn against me. You never know a woman till she had a few kids with you. (Than your main purpose is done and you will realize if she truly like you. Fyi 50% of the times the case is No and a funnier, better looking & richer guy will take the spot, "divorce statistics")
If kids was a less detrimental financial consequence Switzerland would probably be able to maintain their population size without immigrants. In any case if you want healthy children you need to give them love and attention not trucks of money.
This sad paragraph seems to show that either you may be trying to troll, or else you hold rather skewed and reductionist views of men, of women, of children, and most especially of the very many good, healthy ways that relationships can and are be built.

If you really believe what you have written here, then as you research the financial aspects of parenthood, I think you might do well to spend some of your time and effort in environments (for example therapy, workshops, training, courses, discussion groups) in which you can learn more about ways of building and enjoying responsible, developing adult partnerships. And probably also about budgeting and real life costs of living.

Good luck!
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  #105  
Old 17.08.2020, 21:15
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Ps. I'm not in a case myself, I'm a very safe person so will likely never happen to me, but probably for many other men in years to come. I was just surprised this is not more clearly explained. Many teenagers has no clue how terrible this could impact their future. Especially in Switzerland (746k). Women have a strong natural drive to want kids so will always have a bias to getting them. But letting men pay for 20years to something that was never planned is almost criminal to me. Therefore i want an escape plan if one day all odds turn against me. You never know a woman till she had a few kids with you. (Than your main purpose is done and you will realize if she truly like you. Fyi 50% of the times the case is No and a funnier, better looking & richer guy will take the spot, "divorce statistics")
If kids was a less detrimental financial consequence Switzerland would probably be able to maintain their population size without immigrants. In any case if you want healthy children you need to give them love and attention not trucks of money.
So it was just an uhm legal curiosity? In this case you better pay attention to whom you're having intercourse and wear a dam' condom. Guys who share your opinions about women usually end up disappointed that no woman is out to get them.
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  #106  
Old 17.08.2020, 23:17
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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D) How can the cost be 746.400. if the cost to a raising child in Switzlerland is around 180.000. Is this not out of balance? Is there any rational behind this law? https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/raising-a-child_swiss-children-cost-up-to-chf1-000-per-month/38482104

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/cost-of...rancs/45361578

On average, direct costs associated with raising a child are CHF 1,200 to 1,800 per month and that’s not including some of the most expensive childcare in the world and indirect costs.
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  #107  
Old 17.08.2020, 23:54
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

@doropfiz I'm facing the facts nothing else. I think i don't have to prove what i write is correct. I have successful relationships. Read more than 100 books on Psycology. Don't you worry, I'm very succesfull This is not trolling.



@greenmount Please no more condom tips. Got that one. Bad things happens i think statistics clearly proofs it. Most people with high quality sexual relationship eventually do not use condoms, if you have experience you would know . Many women i meet don't wanna do it with condoms after some time. And some women have stolen condoms to self pregnant. (rare though)

Ps. I don't say women are bad, most are great!, but there are just the 1% that's very sneaky, and you never know.
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  #108  
Old 18.08.2020, 00:08
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/cost-of...rancs/45361578

On average, direct costs associated with raising a child are CHF 1,200 to 1,800 per month and that’s not including some of the most expensive childcare in the world and indirect costs.

Great article thanks!

I think there is a big gap between what i child cost when done right (the parent a settled have place with an extra room and grandparents in the city) vs. broke singlemother that needs support for every little thing.

I feel like if it goes right and you stay together a complete the child raising it might cost you a 180000chf but if you take a few wrong steps i quickly and we talk alimony it quickly becomes 746400chf.

Any updates on the consequence if you refuse to pay? How does that work?
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  #109  
Old 18.08.2020, 00:17
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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I'm facing the facts..
I think not.
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  #110  
Old 18.08.2020, 00:21
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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@greenmount .... if you have experience you would know .
You have no basis upon which to assume what experience greenmount has, or does not have. That's her private business. Any anyway, very clearly, her experiences in life are different from yours.
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  #111  
Old 18.08.2020, 02:31
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Discount them for self reporting if you wish, they are still important numbers and unless this is resolved, I believe it is a big issue that our society has.
Not really. That's for the couple to solve, society has no part in this.
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  #112  
Old 18.08.2020, 05:16
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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If you make a mess, you clean the mess. If you use dishes, you contribute to the cleaning and putting away of said dishes. If you wear clothes, you can wash clothes and learn to separate colours to avoid ruining the crisp white shirts. If you use a glass, you carry that glass into the kitchen and put it in the dish washer or wash it straight away and dry it if you don't own a dish washer. Etc.

It baffles me that there is the expectation of having to be told what seems like freaking basic stuff to me. If you do not pull your weight, someone else has to do it for you. By not doing it, you are saying that you expect someone to clean up behind you and that is freaking entitled and disrespectful. Your partner is not your manager. She should not have to tell you to do stuff. She should not have to think on your behalf. You should also not require praise for doing things that you had to be reminded to do. (Of course, I am sure that there are some cases where the roles are reversed and the same applies here.)

I fully understand mothers who refuse to go back to work because it frankly looks like what would happen is that they get to do a full day at the office and then put in the unpaid evening shift of household manager/cleaner. The other thing I notice is that cancelling work to deal with kids' issues tends to be what mothers do, not fathers. And, having worked in an office with men who had stay-at-home wives and hearing how they would gossip about working mams staying home because a child was sick or had a school thing, it is clearly expected but still not really considered acceptable. Not once did they suggest that maybe the husband could take over instead.

At least if you stay at home full time, you can approach the household and family management like a job. If the kids are already at kindergarten/school, you can plan your time during the day and conserve your energy for the face to face time of fighting over homework or dealing with other issues. Then it also makes sense for you to be the manager, simply because you know where everything is and coordinate what is happening. Would I want to put in 8-9 hours in an office and then come home to cooking dinner, cleaning, washing AND doing the homework dance plus socialising on the weekend? Probably not. Definitely not. At least not if I was landed with the majority of the work. If it was equally divided, I guess the "team spirit" kicks in but if not, I would be miserable and resent my partner.

On another thread, someone was mentioning that their almost grown-up child did not help with chores. I once dated a Swiss guy like that, his brother is now over 40 and still lives at home because he has not yet found a wife that is prepared to be his mother too. Don't let your kids become that guy or girl, it will not hurt them to pull their weight from a young age and make them self-sufficient in later life.
I agree with you 100%... it's no wonder so many marriages are so full or arguing about silly stuff when so many people don't make even a basic effort to do their part in a household. I was raised to cook and clean and over the decades I am now something of a domestic champ for whom it is second nature to keep things clean and tidy and maintain some pride in where I live.

Any spawn I produce will grow up the same way.

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Regarding the law:
Anymore details on the law parts?
A) Can you be send to jail for not paying?
B) Is the 746'400 CHF total cost correct?
C) Any estimate how much the number fluctuate if you earn 50k, 100k or 200k a year?


I believe money is very secondary for a childs success but personal hours with two stable parents getting life lessons and school support is much more important than 500chf or 3000chf a month. The number 746400chf just seem like an extreme number compared to all other countries in rest of the world.[/I]
What planet are you on if you think that money doesn't have significance to raising a child? Having enough money to raise a child is critical to their development and happiness. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/caritas...rland/45406358

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@doropfiz I'm facing the facts nothing else. I think i don't have to prove what i write is correct. I have successful relationships. Read more than 100 books on Psycology. Don't you worry, I'm very succesfull This is not trolling.
If you have read 100 psychology books then surely you would know that successful people do not feel the need to tell people: 'Don't worry, I'm very successful' with a winkey smiley in the way you just did. It comes across as egotistical and insecure.

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@greenmount Please no more condom tips. Got that one. Bad things happens i think statistics clearly proofs it. Most people with high quality sexual relationship eventually do not use condoms, if you have experience you would know . Many women i meet don't wanna do it with condoms after some time. And some women have stolen condoms to self pregnant. (rare though)

Ps. I don't say women are bad, most are great!, but there are just the 1% that's very sneaky, and you never know.
If you are not using condoms then you should be discussing with your partner for them to be on the contraceptive pill. Otherwise, condoms are a must if you have any concerns about unwanted pregnancy. If you are in any kind of "stable relationship" you should also not be worrying about whether they will purposefully get pregnant by deceit. If you worry about a person doing that, then you are not in a serious relationship with someone you trust and respect.

Overall, your posts make you sound like a man who doesn't want to take responsibility for his actions.

Last edited by Chuff; 18.08.2020 at 05:40.
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  #113  
Old 18.08.2020, 07:59
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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@doropfiz I'm facing the facts nothing else. I think i don't have to prove what i write is correct. I have successful relationships. Read more than 100 books on Psycology. Don't you worry, I'm very succesfull This is not trolling.



@greenmount Please no more condom tips. Got that one. Bad things happens i think statistics clearly proofs it. Most people with high quality sexual relationship eventually do not use condoms, if you have experience you would know . Many women i meet don't wanna do it with condoms after some time. And some women have stolen condoms to self pregnant. (rare though)

Ps. I don't say women are bad, most are great!, but there are just the 1% that's very sneaky, and you never know.
Even though you may not want to hear any more condom advice, Chuff was spot on, I couldn't have said it any better....

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If you are not using condoms then you should be discussing with your partner for them to be on the contraceptive pill. Otherwise, condoms are a must if you have any concerns about unwanted pregnancy. If you are in any kind of "stable relationship" you should also not be worrying about whether they will purposefully get pregnant by deceit. If you worry about a person doing that, then you are not in a serious relationship with someone you trust and respect.

Overall, your posts make you sound like a man who doesn't want to take responsibility for his actions.

@OP, P.S.: I obviously don't have experience with knocking up women. And fortunately, I have no experience with irresponsible guys either. I do know of a few young women who got pregnant without planning or wanting these pregnancies and they had an abortion, even if they were in a stable relation. At that point in their lives too a child would have been out of the question, I don't know why you imagine there are so many women out there who would want to have a child with an unsuited partner or at an unfavourable moment. Raising a child is no piece of cake, let alone raising it as a single mom. I have a friend who is divorced and never gets the child's alimony on time (a child who was wanted and welcomed by both!), as her ex is always in some sort of financial trouble, has other more "important" things to spend his money on but luckily she doesn't really count on him. So you see, we do have a different life experience.
Oh, and as for women stealing condoms to get impregnated.....that's just...wow. Straight from telenovelas or soap operas of dubious quality.

Last edited by greenmount; 18.08.2020 at 08:13.
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  #114  
Old 18.08.2020, 08:53
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Not really. That's for the couple to solve, society has no part in this.
Not really, until society also shifts we will not make any progress.

Women are expected by many to be the main carer and if they are actually the breadwinner, constantly have to explain this and get stares.
Men are expected to be the breadwinners, and if they are actually the main carers, constantly have to explain and get stares.

Still remember about 10 years ago my hsuband having to stay home one day because our child was sick and being asked "Why you? why not your wife?".

Clearly not everyone in society has this expectations but they are pretty widely spread. School hours for example expect someone at home at odd times etc etc etc.
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  #115  
Old 18.08.2020, 08:59
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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The conversation got sidetracked into a bit of a rant about being a stay at home parent being the hardest job in the world which I dont accept but that was an offshoot.
.
Really? Where exactly was that and who claimed that?

If you are referring to my reaction, it was in response of your initial simple story (here below) of main breadwinner ask stay at home parent to work and they refuse and this is unacceptable and divorce is the solution.

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a friend here in CH whose partner has looked after the kids while he worked while they were babies. Now school age she refuses to work, refuses to look for work and refuses to train to get the skills to work. She is determined to remain a non working mother for as long as she possibly can, ideally not working again ever.

In these circumstances the only sad option is divorce
.

This story as you told it is really just too simple as there is so much more facets to it than you are willing to accept/explore.

If you and your partner navigated this super successfully and smoothly, then good for you. Be proud as it's no mean feat. But please accept that many others will/do struggle because of so many aspects we have no idea about in this story. So if you wish to continue to just say "when children are at school both can work" and full stop, then do so - cannot force anyone to change their mind but would be good to be more open minded to others living through different things.

I believe this balance is much more complicated to achieve than you are willing (able?) to admit.
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  #116  
Old 18.08.2020, 09:08
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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@doropfiz I'm facing the facts nothing else. I think i don't have to prove what i write is correct. I have successful relationships. Read more than 100 books on Psycology. Don't you worry, I'm very succesfull This is not trolling.



@greenmount Please no more condom tips. Got that one. Bad things happens i think statistics clearly proofs it. Most people with high quality sexual relationship eventually do not use condoms, if you have experience you would know . Many women i meet don't wanna do it with condoms after some time. And some women have stolen condoms to self pregnant. (rare though)

Ps. I don't say women are bad, most are great!, but there are just the 1% that's very sneaky, and you never know.
shes a lucky lucky woman, I'm sure your kid is gonna be a class act like their father.
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  #117  
Old 18.08.2020, 09:11
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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I don't know why you imagine there are so many women out there who would want to have a child with an unsuited partner or at an unfavourable moment.
This, exactly. Other than one severely crazy woman I remember, I've never met such a woman.
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  #118  
Old 18.08.2020, 09:27
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Really? Where exactly was that and who claimed that?

If you are referring to my reaction, it was in response of your initial simple story (here below) of main breadwinner ask stay at home parent to work and they refuse and this is unacceptable and divorce is the solution.




This story as you told it is really just too simple as there is so much more facets to it than you are willing to accept/explore.

If you and your partner navigated this super successfully and smoothly, then good for you. Be proud as it's no mean feat. But please accept that many others will/do struggle because of so many aspects we have no idea about in this story. So if you wish to continue to just say "when children are at school both can work" and full stop, then do so - cannot force anyone to change their mind but would be good to be more open minded to others living through different things.

I believe this balance is much more complicated to achieve than you are willing (able?) to admit.
It's not that complicated, and it is backed up by how separation works in Switzerland: during separation, both parents are expected to look for work. If that's how the law works, then it's because that is what is reasonable.

It might not end in divorce, perhaps you'll just bitterly carry on with a sense of resentment for the kids, but when one partner chooses not to work, be it the male, female (or male / male, female / female relationships) it's going to be a tough pill to swallow for the person in the traffic jam at 7.30am each morning on their way to the office.
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  #119  
Old 18.08.2020, 12:42
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

I am not a father nor do I want to be one ever so I have no bone in the game.

I do know few ladies who met guys online and within few weeks stopped taking the pill so they could get pregnant and trap the guy
So should always use a condom even if the lady says that she is on the pill. Also dispose off the condom yourself. STDs are reason enough to use a condom anyway.

Few minutes of sex is not worth throwing your life away or dealing life long with a psycho Ideally get to know a person before having sex but I guess that is expecting too much from "I want it now" crowd.
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Old 18.08.2020, 15:27
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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I do know few ladies who met guys online and within few weeks stopped taking the pill so they could get pregnant and trap the guy
Really... you personally know a "few ladies" who all did that within a few weeksof meeting someone? That's either statistically impressive, or you hang around with certain types of women.
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