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  #141  
Old 18.08.2020, 23:07
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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I would say this mentality leads to most prostituition and paid sex i ever seen.

You go out and you pay 400..800 to a escort..whatever. No chance of getting a bill of 100k or more.
Why would you be off the hook just because you paid for the evening? You fathered the child therefore you're liable without any say. Obviously women are Ok with that as all the decision and power is in their hands, but that doesn't mean you should, too.

In some way escorts are the ultimate gold diggers. You know what you're getting into, this aspect is kind of fair. But they get a fun evening for free (plus bed if *they* decide) *and* get paid on top of it. No "normal" gold digger will hope for that kind of deal even though it isn't that different.
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  #142  
Old 18.08.2020, 23:51
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Why would you be off the hook just because you paid for the evening? You fathered the child therefore you're liable without any say. Obviously women are Ok with that as all the decision and power is in their hands, but that doesn't mean you should, too.

In some way escorts are the ultimate gold diggers. You know what you're getting into, this aspect is kind of fair. But they get a fun evening for free (plus bed if *they* decide) *and* get paid on top of it. No "normal" gold digger will hope for that kind of deal even though it isn't that different.
You do realise that clients very rarely look like Richard Gere, the job still comes with a huge stigma and there is a very real danger of physical harm? If it were as fun and easy as you make it out to be, there would be more women doing it. Because, as you say, you know exactly what you get out of the deal.
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  #143  
Old 18.08.2020, 23:56
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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You do realise that clients very rarely look like Richard Gere, the job still comes with a huge stigma and there is a very real danger of physical harm? If it were as fun and easy as you make it out to be, there would be more women doing it. Because, as you say, you know exactly what you get out of the deal.
Your imagination is playing tricks on you, you're reading stuff into my post that simply isn't there.
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  #144  
Old 19.08.2020, 00:07
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Your imagination is playing tricks on you, you're reading stuff into my post that simply isn't there.
"They get paid for a fun evening and a free bed if they want it".

What exactly am I "imagining"? Would you actually go to sleep next to a stranger? Filing that under "things that only a man would consider"...

Last edited by Kittster; 19.08.2020 at 10:56.
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  #145  
Old 19.08.2020, 06:26
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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In some way escorts are the ultimate gold diggers. You know what you're getting into, this aspect is kind of fair. But they get a fun evening for free (plus bed if *they* decide) *and* get paid on top of it. No "normal" gold digger will hope for that kind of deal even though it isn't that different.
A gold digger, as the term is usually applied, definitely gets a bed to sleep in after sex and more often than not gets gifts and very nice evenings out that over the course of weeks and months cost a lot of money. Regardless of how long it lasts with each guy they meet and what kind of commitments they are looking for, it's an aspiration to having/experiencing a certain lifestyle that they would not otherwise be able to.

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You do realise that clients very rarely look like Richard Gere, the job still comes with a huge stigma and there is a very real danger of physical harm? If it were as fun and easy as you make it out to be, there would be more women doing it. Because, as you say, you know exactly what you get out of the deal.
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Your imagination is playing tricks on you, you're reading stuff into my post that simply isn't there.
Holy **** Urs... you literally wrote that that escorts "have a good time" and that is what Kittster is referring to. Are you so oblivious to what you write? Your lack of self-awareness is mind boggling sometimes.

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"They get paid for a fun evening and a free bed if they want it".

What exactly am I "imagining"? Would you actually go to sleep next to a stranger? Filing that under t"hings that only a man would consider"...
I thought exactly the same as you when I read his post... some men are on a different plane of reality with their glamourised perceptions of prostitution and it seems Urs doesn't even seem to realise the impact of what he writes most of the time. So awkward.

Last edited by Chuff; 19.08.2020 at 08:49.
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  #146  
Old 19.08.2020, 07:45
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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In some way escorts are the ultimate gold diggers. You know what you're getting into, this aspect is kind of fair. But they get a fun evening for free (plus bed if *they* decide) *and* get paid on top of it. No "normal" gold digger will hope for that kind of deal even though it isn't that different.
You know they only pretend to have fun with you,right?
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  #147  
Old 19.08.2020, 08:32
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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In some way escorts are the ultimate gold diggers. You know what you're getting into, this aspect is kind of fair. But they get a fun evening for free (plus bed if *they* decide) *and* get paid on top of it. No "normal" gold digger will hope for that kind of deal even though it isn't that different.
You know - in this logic all jobs are the ultimate golddiggers. It is not like bankers can pick how great their clients are gonna be nor cleaning squad how sanitary the toilets will be to have fun with or teachers cannot pick who will stab them with sharp crayons coz they don't feel like takin a test.

I know what you are trying to say - I also think that if we pick this day to be empathetic with people's professional routines, let's share it fairly and evenly.

But I have no illusions about unpleasantness or risks of the oldest profession in human history, I wouldn't see it as rosey as you said, tbh. Nothing that all women I know see in any way romantic, fun or oportune, financially. And guys who go that route often kid themselves about these "roles" the women (or not) in questions are acting and the roles that the client is playing. It is afterall a paid service for somebody who fails to scratch his/her itch in a different way.
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  #148  
Old 19.08.2020, 08:38
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Really... you personally know a "few ladies" who all did that within a few weeksof meeting someone? That's either statistically impressive, or you hang around with certain types of women.

Don't shoot the messenger! I met directly 3 ladies in their 30s who were not getting anywhere in multiple relationships due to their special personality. They openly said that the next guy they date, they will stop taking the pill without telling them. They all wanted kids and because no guy was sticking around they did the above despicable thing.

They are not my friends, just previous acquaintances. I am not the youngest so meeting 3 such ladies is hardly something shocking. I think this is just tip of the iceberg, it is more common than you think.

Actually I know a 4th girl who met someone online, couple of months later the guy started playing around with other girl or girls. She came crying to me about it and I advised her to dump him and move on. I knew she would not dump him as she is desperate, so I said atleast make him work hard for you. Guess what she did? Got pregnant instantly! She was always telling me that she wanted kids as it it boring and she has nothign to keep her busy.

It gives me no pleasure telling you all this. I am a very open, friendly and sensitive guy, seeing all the decit and ways of this world affects me on lot of levels, even though it has nothing directly to do with me
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  #149  
Old 19.08.2020, 08:53
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Don't shoot the messenger! I met directly 3 ladies in their 30s who were not getting anywhere in multiple relationships due to their special personality. They openly said that the next guy they date, they will stop taking the pill without telling them. They all wanted kids and because no guy was sticking around they did the above despicable thing.

They are not my friends, just previous acquaintances. I am not the youngest so meeting 3 such ladies is hardly something shocking. I think this is just tip of the iceberg, it is more common than you think.

Actually I know a 4th girl who met someone online, couple of months later the guy started playing around with other girl or girls. She came crying to me about it and I advised her to dump him and move on. I knew she would not dump him as she is desperate, so I said at least make him work hard for you. Guess what she did? Got pregnant instantly! She was always telling me that she wanted kids as it it boring and she has nothign to keep her busy.

It gives me no pleasure telling you all this. I am a very open, friendly and sensitive guy, seeing all the decit and ways of this world affects me on lot of levels, even though it has nothing directly to do with me
So, being the nice, open, friendly and sensitive guy that you are... what exactly did you mean when you said to this young woman: "at least make him work hard for you"?
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  #150  
Old 19.08.2020, 09:08
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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It gives me no pleasure telling you all this.
Oh no, don't be ashamed of your feelings. Say it as it is.
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  #151  
Old 19.08.2020, 09:29
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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So, being the nice, open, friendly and sensitive guy that you are... what exactly did you mean when you said to this young woman: "at least make him work hard for you"?

What is with the aggressiveness? You seem to be putting your prejudices about other men on me. I am not anti woman or pro man. I am just anti dumb people, irrespective of their sex.

This was my rough conversation with her-

- If the guy is bored of you and already looking outside the relationship after just couple of months then the relationship is on very unstable foundation. Walk away and dump him! Cut your losses!

- She said she can't as he treats her nice otherwise I knew she won't dump him anyway as she is very clingy and creates her fake reality.

"at least make him work hard for you" = Don't forgive him instantly. Discuss with him and make him realize that she is not easy and that she won't tolerate such disloyal behaviour. Take your time before jumping back in bed with him. If he still hangs around and fights for the relationship, then there is 3% chance that he might be genuinely sorry and it might work for a bit.

What did she do? They moved in together and 2 weeks later she is preganant, and she was never on pill anyway she said So in this particular case IF the guy knew she was not on pill then both are dumb as each other and I wish them well


So Frau General Chuff, all clear now?
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  #152  
Old 19.08.2020, 12:41
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

Sadly, nobody here is representing the perspective of the children who are either conceived or born as a result of naivety, stupidity or malicious intent.
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  #153  
Old 19.08.2020, 12:56
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Sadly, nobody here is representing the perspective of the children who are either conceived or born as a result of naivety, stupidity or malicious intent.
It is on my mind. They need to be provided for, have somebody have their backs. Aside of the natural entitlement for a loving, emotionally secure home. OP just seems to completely avoid that particular human need, it looks like some weird accounting school assignment. Whether one goes to jail when not taking care of one's child...aside of moral purgatory - OP, call a legal service. That one phonecall will not cost you that much.
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  #154  
Old 19.08.2020, 13:28
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

I must admit this is a fascinating thread. Started with an inquiry re. parental support that you will need to give if you have a child and has become very broad encompassing gender perceptions, female emancipation, men rights, relationship advise with some passive-aggressive comments thrown in. After reading some responses from the OP, I thought he may be trolling but maybe he is serious.

I keep coming back to the comments 'Litespeed' makes about the children. How sad would it be for the child if he/she had a father who never wanted to take responsibility and/or a mother who saw him/her as a means to an end. That would be a horrible welcome for a new life. Every life (irrespective of circumstances of conception barring assault) deserves a loving home. That is the bare minimum that should be offered. And if two adults are old enough to have intercourse, they need to be ready to put the child's interests ahead of their own. Else be responsible adults and use all means of contraception to avoid pregnancy.

In a more philosophical sense, the underlying theme may be 'actions without a willingness to accept potential consequences'. If you want to play the field, this is a very real risk. If you are in a committed relationship, this should be one of the topics to openly discuss and agree. And if you are on your way to becoming a father/mother, time to grow up and think about the life you have created vs. how much I have to pay, how i was cheated etc.
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  #155  
Old 19.08.2020, 14:27
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

News today about paternity leave vote in 6 weeks:

"swissinfo.ch: Why is Switzerland one of the only western countries not to have paternity leave?

Isabel Valerino: Switzerland’s lateness in providing parental and paternity leave is linked to its delay in introducing maternity insurance. After the principle was adopted in the Constitution, it took 50 years before a law was enacted in 2005. The absolute priority was therefore to introduce maternity leave before moving to include fathers. There had been proposals for parental leave, but they were dismissed and given their failure the debate focused on a minimal maternity insurance scheme that would gather a consensus.

The late entry of women into politics has also played a role, as has semi-direct democracy and the federal state. Several issues are moving very slowly in Switzerland because you need a very solid consensus for a new law to be adopted. Numerous propositions for paternity leave and parental leave have been submitted to Parliament, but each time they have been rejected."

As i read this Switzerland has the mindset of man can do a baby but no caring for the baby. Woman has to stay home caring for baby and man has to work and pay for bills.

You can argue whatever you want in this thread. The proposals rejection shows what democracy votes therefore what people think.
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  #156  
Old 19.08.2020, 14:34
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

whats really disturbing is the op keeps asking about going to jail *if* he doesn't pay, which (for me at least) tells me that's his ultimate plan.

he could't give a fig about the woman or HIS unborn child just as long as he doesn't goto jail for walking away.
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  #157  
Old 21.08.2020, 17:53
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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You do realise that clients very rarely look like Richard Gere, the job still comes with a huge stigma and there is a very real danger of physical harm? If it were as fun and easy as you make it out to be, there would be more women doing it. Because, as you say, you know exactly what you get out of the deal.
Ok ok, not fun, just a job. That said, waking up next to a stranger is a choice, too, and such requests may be pretty rare.

However what increased risks of physical harm to escorts have? After all the client is known, there's no anonymity. Got some data to back up your claim?
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Old 21.08.2020, 18:45
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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whats really disturbing is the op keeps asking about going to jail *if* he doesn't pay, which (for me at least) tells me that's his ultimate plan.

he could't give a fig about the woman or HIS unborn child just as long as he doesn't goto jail for walking away.
That was clear from the very beginning and also that he doesn't trust the woman/women he's involved with. Or women in general. Who woudn't be desperate to get such a partner....
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Old 21.08.2020, 18:59
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

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Ok ok, not fun, ...
Definitely not. More like hell.

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However what increased risks of physical harm to escorts have?
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Got some data to back up your claim?
I have many hours of conversations (and an excellent radio documentary some years ago) to back up what I set out here.

Over the years, I've had the opportunity to speak to four full-time prostitutes, two women and one man in Switzerland, and one woman in France, at some length. I knew the daughter of another, who told me how her mother's set-up worked, and the sister of another who told her me of her sister's life as a prostitute. I also heard, at length, a Social Worker who works with prostitutes on the streets in Zurich.

I've also spoken to the clients of another prostitute, who were in a certain clique of friends who enjoyed the fact that they were all seeing the same prostitute. She told them (and me) that she had chosen this job freely because she was a nymphomaniac. One man, though, told me that when he went there, they talked for a while and she ended up confessing, in tears, that in fact, her sex-drive was not particularly high and she called herself a "nympho" because it was a good business ad, and also because it was a weak attempt at rationalising, to herself, that she had no other way to earn enough money to keep her pimp satisfied and not be beaten by him. The client left, appalled.

All of those to whom I spoke, and the clients of the Social Worker, had not entered prostitution willingly, but under coercion of one kind or another. They had been beaten or blackmailed by someone whom they had initially believed to be their "boyfriend" and who turned out to have been recruiting and grooming them. They either owed him money, or he constructed huge emotional pressure by saying that he owed someone money, and he was in mortal danger if he couldn't repay, and that this man here knew the boss-man, and had said he'd get him a discount if only he could have sex with the girlfriend.

One teenager was sent out by her father, and beaten by him when she returned home if she did not bring home money from prostitution, and he even said, literally: "I've got people watching you, out there, so don't even think about trying to earn the money some other way. You're a whore and I want you to be a whore."

The Social Worker in Zurich told me that she and her colleagues were trying to rescue young teenagers who had been recruited in Eastern Europe, especially in rural areas.

There, an apparent benefactor typically befriends their parents and/or their town leaders, speaking their own language. The recruiters tell the parents that they are interested in rural development, and to lend credibility to their self-marketing, they are sometimes seen to be generously pledging money to a much-needed local project. They then offer to organise a great opportunity in Switzerland for the girl, purportedly to work looking after the recruiter's sister's children, or to work in their cousin's restaurant, or to send her to language and other schools while providing free board and lodging in exchange for some housework. The girl and her parents are promised that the training abroad will give the girl skills to bring home a year later, to continue the good work of saving the rural community. These sly pseudo-benefactors also offer to obtain a passport for the girls.

The girls then fly into Switzerland and are fetched at the airport like a VIP. They are taken to some pokey room, their passport is taken from them (for safekeeping) and then they are alternatively raped (clients pay extra for getting the new girl) and given drugs (by Mr Nice Guy, who is so sorry that those bad men did that to her, and these pills will make her feel better) on and on for weeks, until their spirits are broken, their dignity is in shreds, their bodies need medical attention (a doctor or nurse is brought in by Mr Nice Guy) and they are addicted.

Next, they are told that the benefactor spent all that money to get them here, and then to rescue them from this trouble and organise the doctor, and now school has already started and they've missed so many weeks, and there's board and lodging, and medical treatment to pay for, (possibly also an abortion). Now that they're in too bad a state to do clean jobs such as babysitting and waitressing, they'd best just go along with the prostitution to pay back these huge debts which they have now incurred. After all, they wouldn't want their poor parents back home to have to put themselves into debt to cover these costs, would they? Or should we contact your parents and tell them how immorally you've been behaving? Didn't you find some part of it fun, after all? And after a few more weeks: don't you know how expensive your medication (or addiction) has become?

They are also told that those bad men, at the start, had stolen/lost/destroyed their passport, so if they try to run away, the Swiss police will arrest them and because it is a very, very serious offence to be illegal, in Switzerland, will put them in prison for years, and that conditions in Swiss prisons are dire. Mr Nice Guy offers to try to obtain a replacement passport, but of course from here it would cost yet more.

The final pressure is: "If you don't cooperate, Mr Bad Guy might just go back and get your little sister, and we can't guarantee that we'll be able to protect her."

So, to answer your question, the increased risks of physical harm include:
  • rape,
  • sexually transmitted diseases,
  • unwanted pregnancy,
  • forced abortion, sometimes performed by non-medical staff,
  • drug addition,
  • physical intimidation and beating (by Mr Bad Guy)
  • sadism by the clients who pay for that,
  • lack of sleep or irregular sleep and all that follows from that, because of the times when the clients demand services, and
  • poor nutrition, because they can eat only what is brought to them, and/or have very little money in their own purse, to buy food or, indeed, anything.

The pschological harm is correspondingly immense.

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After all the client is known, there's no anonymity.
The women and men to whom I spoke, and the Social Worker's clients, said that in most cases they did not know the identities of the men (and occasionally women) with whom they were made to have sex.
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Old 21.08.2020, 19:08
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Re: How much alimony will unmarried father approx have to pay in Switzlerland (Zürich

This is such a sordid, extremely damaging - physically and mentally - occupation that I can't for the life of me understand how some people think these women have fun. Even those who are not coerced into prostitution are exposing themselves to great risks.

I get that Urs Max is thinking of the "high-end" of the "profession" and he assumes escorts are doing it for fun, but is it really the case? I don't think so.
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