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Old 16.09.2020, 13:21
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Sportclinic, Schulthess-klinik what next?

This forum has been helpful to me so maybe I can get another perspective from someone

I am very active guy, have been all my life. Carrying zero extra weight and in very good shape for someone about to hit 50! Around 1.5 years ago I got some ITBS issues on my left lateral knee due to too much mountain trail running and fitness in general, overuse maybe (ok definitely).

As I am not running currently the pain on lateral knee is not there but pain has moved to lateral left thigh, lateral left hip and lower left back region. I also feel a snapping/clicking feeling, medial left knee. I have tried everything from more strengthening to stretching to foam rolling. I can be pain free for 1 week then with pain for next 2 weeks. Round and round the cycle goes.

Sitting in front of PC makes it worse so I get up every hour and stretch but that has not provided any long term solution. Long hikes are killing me too. Not during the hike but next few days. I just have not been able to solve the issue nor run. Aim was to solve it and get back to mountain running but now I just want to get rid of the pain so I can live more normal again! Technically I can go running but for next few days I will have a sword stuck in my lateral hip/thigh kind of pain. This for a guy who was easily running 10-20km every day for fun.


In last 1.5 years I have taken two breaks from fitness to rest the issue, 3 month break and a 2 month break. Both times rest = increase in pain

-
Since this issue started I have been to following docs-



Sport-Clinic twice- The doc each time tested my knees and hip joints "violently" and thoroughly with the various physical joint test manoeuvrers and also ultrasound.

Each time the conclusion was that I have normal knees and hip joints. Lot of tightness on my left side and scar tissues in the muscle. No inflammation of the Bursa. More stretching and core strengthening. I have been stretching constantly with zero long term improvement!!!! I can't make my core any more strong anyway!!!! Doc said zero need for MRI or X-ray. It is soft tissue and not bone joint related.


Schulthess-klinik - Doc did zero manoeuvrers to test my joints. One poke with finger on my back only. He did MRI of my left knee and X-ray of my hip. Left knee he said looks normal, cartilage etc all ok. Medial left knee clicking/snapping feeling could be due to inflamed plica. Hip joint "maybe" slight arthritis. He wanted to do ultrasound but machine was occupied. He said get back to running in 6 months If I still have pain then come back. Then COVID came. 1 year later zero improvement and I definitely won't attempt to run.


-
There you have it. Don't know which of the specialist to believe. My symptoms don't seem to match hip joint arthritis as I can sleep on that side, no morning stiffness, no difficulty bending down, full joint flexibility. Actually I am very flexible overall. On the other hand soft tissue not fixing for almost 2 years is bit weird too????

I am planning to see a next specialist! Maybe the higher up doc at Schulthess-klinik or shall I try somewhere else?
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Btw I also visited 2 Physios.


Physio 1- Said I had lot of tightness on the left lateral thigh. Gave me some stretches to do and told me to foam roll. Which did not help. Wanted to do needling I gave it a miss.


Physio 2- Said foam rolling and needling are waste of time and not clinically proven. Gave me a strength routine. Which I did, maybe helped more than the first physio but not really problem solving worth.

-
If you made this far, you deserve a medal So what should I do?

Last edited by Talk to you later; 16.09.2020 at 13:42.
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Old 16.09.2020, 13:59
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Re: Sportclinic, Schulthess-klinik what next?

I am not sure where you live but I got a physio that is way better than the doctors who saw me. Maybe you could come to him? Pm me if interested. I do a lot of sports so need him for me to be in shape and do it intelligently to avoid some chronic conditions and pain. It takes a very intuitive, smart, hollistic, global and investigative view to think with you towards the future of your body and performance.
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Old 16.09.2020, 15:00
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Re: Sportclinic, Schulthess-klinik what next?

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I am not sure where you live but I got a physio that is way better than the doctors who saw me. Maybe you could come to him? Pm me if interested. I do a lot of sports so need him for me to be in shape and do it intelligently to avoid some chronic conditions and pain.
I am ZH.

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It takes a very intuitive, smart, hollistic, global and investigative view to think with you towards the future of your body and performance.


....way better than the doctors who saw me
You can say that again. I have read countless articles and watched endless YT videos to try to solve this! Lot of info is so contradactory. Still I tried everything even using the "flick mud on the wall hopefully something will stick" approach.

Some docs are in their own world and you are just another number/patient for the day! I will see one more specialist and get MRI done of my thigh hip region then take it from there!I I want to 100% rule out any joint wear issues.


Can anyone here read hip X-ray?
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Old 16.09.2020, 15:18
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Re: Sportclinic, Schulthess-klinik what next?

You need a doctor you trust, though the Schultess -clinic are supposed to be the place for sports injuries.
Psycho-somatic used to have a very negative connotation, but my experience has been that there is a definite general mental health -pain cause/perception connection -in my latest case sciatica, the explanation being that stress caused the muscles to tense putting pressure on the nerve.
I can recommend yoga; stretching, relaxing, surrounded by ladies - fantastic.
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Old 16.09.2020, 15:22
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Re: Sportclinic, Schulthess-klinik what next?

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You need a doctor you trust, though the Schultess -clinic are supposed to be the place for sports injuries.
Which is why I might go and see a different doc there. Give them another chance.

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I can recommend yoga; stretching, relaxing, surrounded by ladies - fantastic.
Have been doing it for 15+ years Amongst other things. All think that I should be the last person who has these issues.
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Old 16.09.2020, 15:30
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Re: Sportclinic, Schulthess-klinik what next?

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If you made this far, you deserve a medal So what should I do?
Drugs.

I think you're just feeling the signs of age, TBH. Many people start to develop various aches and pains at your age, often for no apparent reasons.

I have pains all over, all he time, some of them specifically related to old injuries (I broke my back and all my ribs some years back, never been the same since) and some of them just seemingly random.

The fitter and more active I am, the lower the pain levels, and the less likelihood of them becoming acute, but when they do I reach for the ibuprofen without hesitation (at least, when I notice it, which isn't always straight away).

Just occasionally something will flare up to agonising levels, when I reach for the opiates to enable sleep, which is the great healer.
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Old 16.09.2020, 15:53
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Re: Sportclinic, Schulthess-klinik what next?

Why not see a chiropractor? There is one in Wallisellen that follows the Gonstead approach that might be exactly what you need. Keep in mind that with LaMal you are allowed to go directly to a chiropractor and it will be covered by LaMal.

Dr. Stefan Rauber

Link: http://www.chiropraktik-wallisellen.ch/en
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Old 16.09.2020, 15:54
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Re: Sportclinic, Schulthess-klinik what next?

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Drugs.

I think you're just feeling the signs of age, TBH. Many people start to develop various aches and pains at your age, often for no apparent reasons.

Mine was clear reason though, the start/trigger I mean. While running 50k in the mountains, lateral knee pain started at km2 (1/10 pain level), by km25 I had to stop as pain had increased to 9/10. Next 5 days I could not walk straight or put weigth on my knee. Then I was normal again. Classic ITBS. Until that point I was able to bomb up and down mountians with 0 pain!

I did extra exercises to strengthen my knees, thighs, glutes etc etc. Then I ran around 5 x 25km in a month and pain in the lateral thigh and hip started. It has been downhill since then as I never ran again. Unless catching bus counts


I still do many hours of gym training every week, just not running.
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Old 16.09.2020, 22:07
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Re: Sportclinic, Schulthess-klinik what next?

When an older relative told me - decades ago - that at some point after forty, you get „Wanderschmerz“, pain that just pops up randomly, I smiled. Now I‘m fifty and know what he meant. Similarly, when our granddad turned ninety and we asked him how he was doing, he groaned: if I was sixty I‘d say I was deathly ill, but I‘m ninety, so it‘s all normal! Doctors say they are infinitely frustrated by doctor-shoppers who just can‘t accept there is nothing they can do. That said, I have heard almost only good things about the Schulthessklinik and the Balgrist. But perhaps you are „incurably healthy“: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3GaUk3NstL8 A last word of caution: painkillers are cetrainly an option but beware of strong meds. The opiate that cannot cause dependency does not exist. Remember Oxycontin.
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Old 16.09.2020, 23:08
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Re: Sportclinic, Schulthess-klinik what next?

Once I was running in the mountains all alone in the winter and snow had blocked the way. I had few other paths that I could take but was not sure as I had already run up and back down few times due to dangerous blocked paths. I saw another runner coming down from one path and we ended up talking for 30mins. He was in his 50s. He said that once he hit 46 his body just started disintegrating

Missenglish, I wish it was not so painful. If 10/10 pain = leg getting chopped off. My pain can reach 8/10 level on bad days

I had a friend who had nerve pain in her legs. It grinded her down so much that she took the EXIT option, apart from that she was slim and healthy

I don't take painkillers. Frankly speaking they never did much for me. Also I like to know what my body is telling me.
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Old 17.09.2020, 07:42
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Re: Sportclinic, Schulthess-klinik what next?

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I don't take painkillers. Frankly speaking they never did much for me. Also I like to know what my body is telling me.
Pain is your body telling you to stop, so you are hearing but not listening. Just being human, we don't like the idea of resting all day. If you don't like the message, maybe better to turn it off.
Ibuprufen didn't do the trick for my strained ligaments in the knee - fluid drained followed by a cortisone injection yesterday - bliss, woke up pain free for the first day in weeks. I know that I now I have to look after the joints/muscles better than I had been doing (if I want to avoid knee surgery in the future) and to pace myself - part of getting older
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Old 17.09.2020, 07:57
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Re: Sportclinic, Schulthess-klinik what next?

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Pain is your body telling you to stop, so you are hearing but not listening. Just being human, we don't like the idea of resting all day.

I did rest twice, for 2 months and then 3 months during COVID semi lockdown. It increased my pain drastically.


For example, yesterday sitting in front of the PC, my pain was at 8/10 level and was grinding me down which is why I started this thread, then I went to the gym for 3 hrs and it went back down to 1/10 level. Today it is still at 1/10 level. How long it will stay there is completely random to me! Obviously there is a reason why the pain goes up but that no one knows clearly and which is what I will see the next doc for. Docs solutions have not worked so far. Maybe MRI of hip,thigh, lower back will throw more light?

Quote:
cortisone injection
That will be bad for my ligaments/muscle etc and make them weaker and prone to more long term damage from what I have read. Plus my whole left chain seems to be affected from left knee to left lower back. It is as if left side muscles, tendons etc have been shortened/tightened.
Your issue seems to respond to rest. Mine does not


What happened to your knee anyway to start it all?
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Old 17.09.2020, 08:16
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Re: Sportclinic, Schulthess-klinik what next?

I was curious what ITBS is, so I just did a quick Google search, and then after that, I searched for "how to repair connective tissues" and found that collagen supplements as well as taking Glucosamine-Chondroitin can help. Have you ever tried those? I think they're something you have to stick with for a while to begin experiencing the benefits (or at least I know that's the case with glucosamine).

Also, to help with inflammation, you could consider taking turmeric capsules. And also maybe upping your vitamin C.

"Foods rich in vitamin C can be a great help in connective tissue repair as it helps the body in the production of collagen. Vitamin C is also required to change the amino acid proline into hydroxyproline (the collagen form) and lysine into hydroxylisine (the collagen form)

https://www.stevegranthealth.com/art...tion-recovery/

And if the pain is nerve-related, taking high-dose B12 could also help -- or even getting B12 injections from your doctor. My mother-in-law had severe nerve pain in her lower back for a while and then had B12 injections and her pain decreased dramatically afterward.
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Old 17.09.2020, 08:24
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Re: Sportclinic, Schulthess-klinik what next?

My advice is - learn to grow old gracefully!

You have been engaging in extreme sports. Some can keep doing this for ever others not. Our bodies were designed to run and as hunter gatherers we did, but then we died at 30.

Think of lower impact sports like swimming and try strength training at a gym...
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Old 17.09.2020, 08:32
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Re: Sportclinic, Schulthess-klinik what next?

Sorry one more thing...

I was also going to suggest getting an MRI, and of your lower back. Your pain could be sciatica-related; and if that's the case, surgery might really help (Microdiscectomy -- which apparently is a very common surgical procedure). If the problem is in your lower back / spine, that could also help explain why your pain was so much worse while sitting at the computer, as that can put a lot of strain on the muscles and ligaments in our backs and even mess up their alignment if we sit for long periods quite often. I know they also make special chair cushions to help alleviate the pressure / pain and help with alignment. For example:

https://www.amazon.de/bonmedico-Orth...xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
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Old 17.09.2020, 09:14
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Re: Sportclinic, Schulthess-klinik what next?

Hi Pancakes,

Classic ITBS (Iliotibial band syndrome/IT band syndrome) causes pain on the lateral knee only. When it progresses more it can cause pain higher up the chain too.




Normally stopping the activity that started it all should ease the pain. I have not run for a year so I don't have lateral knee pain anymore, but in my case it seems I am still dealing with the aftermath.

You see how the IT band connects to the glute, TFL, thigh, knee region muscles, lower back etc. It is a connective tissue, or fascia so it is really interconnected with the muscles like a spider web. If muscle has issues/tightness etc it tugs at the IT band which is like a chain and pulls things and throws everything out of sink.

The actual IT band is really tough, new research shows that it can't be stretched as it is like trying to stretch a truck tyre (lot of the docs don't even know this which is worrying). You can stretch the muscles that attach/blend into it. So technically stretching, rolling etc lot of time should ease the pain but it did not for me.


The sitting down generally tightens the TFL muscle amongst other things and this causes issues with back but yes could be nerve related too but I doubt it as there are other classic symptoms with nerve pain that I don't have. Will insist on having an MRI done.

Regarding B12 and Vitamin C. I have been taking them for decades Also Magnesium amongst various other things. My diet is on point I do blood works every year. Not lacking any nutrients
Quote:
that collagen supplements as well as taking Glucosamine-Chondroitin can help. Have you ever tried those? I think they're something you have to stick with for a while to begin experiencing the benefits
Never tried those. Will look into it.

Last edited by Talk to you later; 17.09.2020 at 09:25.
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Old 17.09.2020, 09:18
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Re: Sportclinic, Schulthess-klinik what next?

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My advice is - learn to grow old gracefully!

You have been engaging in extreme sports. Some can keep doing this for ever others not. Our bodies were designed to run and as hunter gatherers we did, but then we died at 30.

I agree with the general sentiment. Which is why I haven't run for a year. Even though it is like asking a fish not to swim


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...strength training at a gym...
Did it all my life and still do. I am a gym fitness rat Actually functional training rat rather than muscle pumping rat.
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Old 17.09.2020, 09:35
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Re: Sportclinic, Schulthess-klinik what next?

Cortisone has had a bad press; I think because it was greeted as a wonder drug and then overprescribed. My reading of the situation is that in controlled doses it can do wonders to reduce inflammation, which is often a cause of more pain than the original injury - my ligament tear was the result of breaking down-hill records on a push-scooter
AFAIK the negative side-effects of cortisone are only likely to occur on prolonged usage.
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Old 17.09.2020, 14:16
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Re: Sportclinic, Schulthess-klinik what next?

Hi OP,

I have not read all the responses, just your post.

I have had several different issues from hip injury, knee problems and neck pain problems, over the course of 7 years or so. (not all of them at once)

I too, run/train a lot and my first problems were knee issues. First chiro/physio solved the issue. Then I had a hip injury twice. Kept going to the same place and hardly got better. So my doc sent me to another physio. After 3 months I could run again, incredible!

So then the terrible neck pain started and I had gone to the Schulthess Klinik a few years back, where they told me on the MRI, I had issues between the C4/5 (or C5/6 I forgot ). Late last year went back to them and was told I need surgery. Wasn't keen on it as it is the neck area.... Went to a second opinion at Hirschlanden where the doc told me a definite NO to surgery. That I definitely did not need it yet!

He referred me to another physio, which also has a medical doc. Been going there for 5 months, and the pain has gotten so much better! Really happy that I did not go with the surgery...

Not saying that this place can miraculously solve your issues, but since my experience was so good, maybe worth a try? Let me know if you want details.
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Old 17.09.2020, 14:35
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Re: Sportclinic, Schulthess-klinik what next?

Summergirl, yes please send me any details here or by PM

Someone who works at a "nameless" clinic in admin once told me that if you go to a Doc who is a surgeon then for them solution to every problem would be surgery I definitely am not going under the knife for this. Unless there is something serious going on.

My intention to get MRI + second opinion is to get clear answers-

a) Does my hip joint have any real arthritis. I mean enough to be causing this issue for so long.
b) Do they see anything else that could be causing the issue!

My personal experience has been that for every good Doc that solved my problems in the past, I had to visit 3-4 dud Docs.
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