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  #21  
Old 21.09.2020, 17:02
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

For some reason I can't quote you text JackieH so....


Thank you I used to go to environment demos and got jaded. Seeing parents with 4-5 kids lecturing the world about environment and climate change got boring. Virtue signalling at its best.

I don't have all the answers but I believe in personal responsibility. I know someone who is in an unstable brand-new relationship but will have 3 kids. First one is on the way already. Now chances of the relationship lasting are low, but her priority is to have 3 kids at any cost! It is an accessory! Who am I to judge but why do I have to pay?

Last edited by Talk to you later; 21.09.2020 at 17:51.
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  #22  
Old 21.09.2020, 17:08
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/05/t...-backlash.html
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  #23  
Old 21.09.2020, 17:08
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Why you should single out benefits for children I don't know - would you also remove disability allowances, as you're apparently able-bodied? Get rid of unemployment benefit if you've always had a job? Where would it end?
Disability allowance is not a tax but an insurance.

I do think that taxes need to be supported by a majority of the population to be legitimate. Ideally a double majority. That's democratic accountability. And taxes, or any other laws, that don't have that support need to be terminated. And if there is a law or a tax you don't agree with, by all means campaign against it, and bring on a vote against it. That's what a living democracy is all about. We shouldn't be afraid of bringing on discussions, not even unpleasant discussions. And we shouldn't be afraid of putting them to the vote.

And that's why it's right IMHO that paternity leave is being put to the vote rather than decided by lobbyists and politicians in some back room dealing as would happen in most other countries.
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  #24  
Old 21.09.2020, 17:09
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

Also relevant to the why you should pay for X or Y that you don't use, this idea of Soziale Marktwirtschaft.

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Soziale Marktwirtschaft hat sich als Bezeichnung für die Wirtschaftsordnung der Bundesrepublik Deutschland, der Republik Österreich und der Schweiz durchgesetzt.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soziale_Marktwirtschaft
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  #25  
Old 21.09.2020, 17:15
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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You totally missed Phil_MCR comment. Suicide is a viable way of reducing population, so since you keep replying I guess it should be I have not put my mouth where my money is.
No I did not miss it at all. I am a member of EXIT and I will be committing suicide eventually. You know when I am not self-sufficient and a burden on society

On the other hand if you mean I should go already, then maybe we can go together My population reduction was about not bringing more people to this planet, it was not about slaughtering the existing ones.


I should just blow my savings and go on social so your kids can take care of me forever We all make lifestyle choices, we need to live with the consequences.
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  #26  
Old 21.09.2020, 17:19
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Yes, I have and still saving and preparing for my upkeep What consequences are you specifically thinking about?
My kids will be paying your pension. Not yours - since you wont have any.
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  #27  
Old 21.09.2020, 17:20
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O


The latest public comment on the article sums up my view-

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Everyone seems to forget that being a parent is, for most people, a choice. It brings tremendous benefits to parents, which presumably is why they choose it. It also brings costs. To demand extra privileges because you choose to have children...should I not then demand extra privileges because I choose to have pets, or choose to live an inconvenient distance from my workplace, or make other choices that improve my life in other ways? Fairness does demand equal treatment.
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  #28  
Old 21.09.2020, 17:24
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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My kids will be paying your pension.
You mean the pension for which I contributed myself

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Not yours - since you wont have any.
Guess what? My non-existent kids won't be draining the future pension pot either Come on, I thought you had better points than that.
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  #29  
Old 21.09.2020, 17:25
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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No I did not miss it at all. I am a member of EXIT and I will be committing suicide eventually. You know when I am not self-sufficient and a burden on society

On the other hand if you mean I should go already, then maybe we can go together My population reduction was about not bringing more people to this planet, it was not about slaughtering the existing ones.


I should just blow my savings and go on social so your kids can take care of me forever We all make lifestyle choices, we need to live with the consequences.

What about the part on the VAT paid by parents? I also don't plan to have kids but I'm not blind enough to see their bank accounts are empty because they have consumed a lot and payed a lot of taxes. People don't even have a home because they spent all on diapers or whatever. 1/3 of CH federal budget comes from VAT, more than a few rappen.
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  #30  
Old 21.09.2020, 17:30
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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I will say a big yes to fathers' maternity leave (as a mother and grand-mother whose husband practically didn't see his babies due to extreme working hours) - and a big NO for those silly planes.
In the end people will have to accept lower salaries, there was nothing to stop your husband taking a weeks holiday to see his babies. We all make choices.
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  #31  
Old 21.09.2020, 17:32
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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What about the part on the VAT paid by parents? I also don't plan to have kids but I'm not blind enough to see their bank accounts are empty because they have consumed a lot and payed a lot of taxes. People don't even have a home because they spent all on diapers or whatever. 1/3 of CH federal budget comes from VAT, more than a few rappen.
It is difficult to reply to each and every point, I am trying my best here even though I am starving.

Their bank accounts are not light because they decided to hand money out to charity. Buying diaper for your own kid is part of being a responsible adult. Imagine I keep buying 10 pizzas daily but then ask you to pay for it because I pay pizza VAT.


Fewer people = less consumption = less VAT required by the government
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  #32  
Old 21.09.2020, 17:40
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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You mean the pension for which I contributed myself
You didn't really contribute to your own but to the pensioners' by the time.
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  #33  
Old 21.09.2020, 17:40
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

The cost of paternity leave and deductions for childcare pale in comparison to the billions for new fighters. The ongoing maintenance and repair costs are likely to treble that cost over 20 years.
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  #34  
Old 21.09.2020, 17:44
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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You didn't really contribute to your own but to the pensioners' by the time.

So you agree that I contributed to the pension pot and not taking something I did not contribute to? What is the issue then?
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  #35  
Old 21.09.2020, 17:49
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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The cost of paternity leave and deductions for childcare pale in comparison to the billions for new fighters. The ongoing maintenance and repair costs are likely to treble that cost over 20 years.
I don't agree with that either. Maybe strengthen land border for cheaper instead. If you still want to spend money, then maybe get S-500 missile system from Putin
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  #36  
Old 21.09.2020, 18:07
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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It is difficult to reply to each and every point, I am trying my best here even though I am starving.

Their bank accounts are not light because they decided to hand money out to charity. Buying diaper for your own kid is part of being a responsible adult. Imagine I keep buying 10 pizzas daily but then ask you to pay for it because I pay pizza VAT.


Fewer people = less consumption = less VAT required by the government
Fine, you see no value in other people's kids. So no point in discussing that.

So let's go back to money: 230 million francs per year or 0.05% of increase in social contributions. https://www.thelocal.ch/20200207/swi...aternity-leave

A second estimate is 0.03% of employee salary costs https://www.willistowerswatson.com/e...-by-parliament

So, why should I care about ~40 CHF per year?

Last edited by Axa; 21.09.2020 at 18:18. Reason: made the % calculation
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  #37  
Old 21.09.2020, 18:37
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Fine, you see no value in other people's kids. So no point in discussing that.
I see value in everything to an extent. I just don't see any value in me contributing towards other people's sex life decisions or nappies. It was a matter of principle for me hence the thread. Your camp is going to win the vote anyway.


Btw do you know the amount parents currently receive per month per child? Not a trick question, I was just curious.
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  #38  
Old 21.09.2020, 18:38
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

I have children but do not believe everyone needs to have children nevermind many who have no business having them. However, procreation is a fundamental pillar in a functional society for which Switzerland clearly is despite having among the lowest birth rates in the world (And declining each year. So we clearly need to procreate for future generations. We contribute towards many aspects of society in general, even when they do not personally have much to do with every single person who pays into it as this is due to being a direct democracy

For one of the wealthiest countries in the world, our taxes are among the lowest. You don't want children, don't have them but don't be naive enough to think that approach will sustain a country as small as ours. So to that end, these sort of measures are important in Switzerland and you'd have to be awfully selfish or self-centered to think otherwise. Pay up but don't complain - endless reasons why life is far less greener elsewhere
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  #39  
Old 21.09.2020, 18:45
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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So fathers want 2 weeks PAID holiday after childbirth and parents want more money for kids if I understood correctly? As someone who decided not to have kids I just don't understand!!! If you want to have kids, why should others be paying for it
Why should they have to pay for your state pension? In a pay as you go system, your pension and your retirement to the mountains etc... is dependent on those kids paying the contributions necessary for you to have a pension.
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  #40  
Old 21.09.2020, 18:53
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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I see value in everything to an extent. I just don't see any value in me contributing towards other people's sex life decisions or nappies. It was a matter of principle for me hence the thread. Your camp is going to win the vote anyway.


Btw do you know the amount parents currently receive per month per child? Not a trick question, I was just curious.
The paternity leave is going to cost me ~40 CHF per year. Probably I'm dumb, but I see no better use for that money.

Since you started the thread I expected that you explained to people why they should worry about the 0.03-0.05% of income loss. Now I realize it's about principles, not money. Principles cannot be discussed, while money can be negotiated at all times. Have a nice dinner.
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