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  #41  
Old 21.09.2020, 18:54
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

Actually the state pension is not that significant, particularly if you havenít contributed for 35+ years. My 2nd pillar and other investments are what sustains me in my dotage.
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  #42  
Old 21.09.2020, 18:55
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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I see value in everything to an extent. I just don't see any value in me contributing towards other people's sex life decisions or nappies. It was a matter of principle for me hence the thread. Your camp is going to win the vote anyway.


Btw do you know the amount parents currently receive per month per child? Not a trick question, I was just curious.
As it's curious question time, what do you think about maternity pay mothers get following the birth of their child? OK with it, just not OK with men having it? Or all out against it for either sex getting paid to look after babies?
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  #43  
Old 21.09.2020, 18:57
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

If you contribute to the pension pot, you should be allowed to take from the pension pot. If not then I should not be asked to pay into it either.

For example my non-existent kids won't be contributing to the pot, so they won't be pulling out of the pot either. If I am contributing then off course I should be allowed to pull out of it.
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  #44  
Old 21.09.2020, 19:23
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As it's curious question time, what do you think about maternity pay mothers get following the birth of their child? OK with it, just not OK with men having it? Or all out against it for either sex getting paid to look after babies?
Oh! That is such a trick question as I don't know much about maternity pay/leave for obvious reasons

Mum is carrying the child for 9 months normally and father not. Mum has to breastfeed the little nappy consuming machine, so there are some clear biological differences. Otherwise, on the whole I am for equality, whatever that means

Maybe Mum & Dad should both get 6 months unpaid leave? Both should pay toward some insurance to cover their pay or just live of their savings. Sorry I am so naughty

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I have children but do not believe everyone needs to have children nevermind many who have no business having them. However, procreation is a fundamental pillar in a functional society for which Switzerland clearly is despite having among the lowest birth rates in the world (And declining each year. So we clearly need to procreate for future generations. We contribute towards many aspects of society in general, even when they do not personally have much to do with every single person who pays into it as this is due to being a direct democracy

For one of the wealthiest countries in the world, our taxes are among the lowest. You don't want children, don't have them but don't be naive enough to think that approach will sustain a country as small as ours. So to that end, these sort of measures are important in Switzerland and you'd have to be awfully selfish or self-centered to think otherwise. Pay up but don't complain - endless reasons why life is far less greener elsewhere
Fundamental pillars of society have changed and are changing, Skynet will take care of the rest

You made some valid points that did make me pause and think. It would be intellectually dishonest of me not to grant you that.

Last edited by roegner; 21.09.2020 at 19:37. Reason: Merging consecutive posts
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  #45  
Old 21.09.2020, 19:57
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

Maybe dads who will be able to bond with their babies, are less likely to leave them later.
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  #46  
Old 21.09.2020, 20:21
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Guess what? My non-existent kids won't be draining the future pension pot either Come on, I thought you had better points than that.
And who will be picking up arms and defending us.. or changing our diapers?
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  #47  
Old 21.09.2020, 20:34
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Maybe dads who will be able to bond with their babies, are less likely to leave them later.
Maybe, maybe not. Do you mean less likely to leave the relationship with the Mum or you mean leave the relationship with the Mum + also cut contact with the kid? If the latter than that would be one hard-hearted selfish Dad!

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And who will be picking up arms and defending us.. or changing our diapers?
Hopefully no one as the fighter jets are apparently going to take care of everything
Regarding changing our diapers, anyone who is charging money for the job, Spitex?
If you mean people should have kids so that they can change their parents diapers then that is one selfish reason to have kids. Each to their own though. In my case I will be gone, thanks to EXIT.
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  #48  
Old 21.09.2020, 20:59
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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people have to pay for lots of things they don't use. schools, roads, sports facilities. i mean, i'd be perfectly happy to scrap taxes all-together and we can fire all the police, army and hospitals. we can get rid of the courts and prisons too. we'll just buy guns and shoot anyone who can't make a living for themselves.

look on the bright side: you have no kids, so you can afford it!
Unfortunately Vorlage No 4 is not for them! Not even you 120K and up folks will even notice the peanuts given in that range. And those who get the most probably won't notice it either as what they get is totally peanuts to them.
This Vorlage could come from Trump, actually.

It started out as holidays for fathers initiative and turned into something completely different, something utterly strange and although the "Vaterschaftsurlaub" is not even mentioned anymore in the question (a well hidden trial of being honest? ) people are still willing to overlook the nonsense for that tiny weeny sugary dot somewhere.
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  #49  
Old 21.09.2020, 21:07
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

I wrote in if we can make it 3 weeks.

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I voted NO.

Tom
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  #50  
Old 21.09.2020, 21:41
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

I guess this initiative is foremost about the social norm changes than about procreation. It reminds me of a soviet-time propaganda encouraging women to join the labour force:
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdal...k:Mlodziez.jpg

As to paying for one's kids, well, the saved retirement money can't be well spent without a labour force in the future, unless one could buy all the services and have them delivered now instead.
Besides, the system is to a large degree "socialised", it will be the children of the other's who will be paying for the bulk of the infrastructure and running the economy (usually public spending is about 50% of GDP in developed countries). Otherwise, if you don't need them, you could take your hard earned cash, convert it into gold bars, and spend the rest of your life on a desert island basking in its glow. Not sure if you really understand who the free-rider here is?
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  #51  
Old 21.09.2020, 21:44
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

Why should I pay for street lights? I can buy a torch.
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  #52  
Old 21.09.2020, 21:45
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

Few men have more than a couple of children in their working lives, so you're talking about 4 week's extra leave over a 40+ years career. It really quite a cheap benefit for a company to provide, making them look generous for little cost.

I was surprised to see a campaign poster against the increase in child allowance that argued it would only benefit the rich. (Which made me think - I wish I could vote for it! ).

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Now I realize it's about principles, not money.
Then it's definitely about the money. Bah, humbug!
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  #53  
Old 21.09.2020, 21:48
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Why should I pay for street lights? I can buy a torch.

You are too modern! A lantern is all I need.
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  #54  
Old 21.09.2020, 21:48
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

Iím actually for this because:
1. Mothers are sent home quicker after birth and can use the help
2. Not everyone has a mother to help them out
3. Fathers should become as quickly involved in baby care as possible

I understand the counter argument that we have enough holiday as it is but Ferien ist ein heilige Kuh here ... no one wants to give it up for baby care if possible.
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Old 21.09.2020, 21:51
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Iím actually for this because:
1. Mothers are sent home quicker after birth and can use the help
2. Not everyone has a mother to help them out
3. Fathers should become as quickly involved in baby care as possible

I understand the counter argument that we have enough holiday as it is but Ferien ist ein heilige Kuh here ... no one wants to give it up for baby care if possible.
My son's new employer couldn't give him any paternity leave. So they gave him an extra 5 days annual leave for this year instead!
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  #56  
Old 21.09.2020, 21:54
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Oh! That is such a trick question as I don't know much about maternity pay/leave for obvious reasons

Mum is carrying the child for 9 months normally and father not. Mum has to breastfeed the little nappy consuming machine, so there are some clear biological differences. Otherwise, on the whole I am for equality, whatever that means

Maybe Mum & Dad should both get 6 months unpaid leave? Both should pay toward some insurance to cover their pay or just live of their savings. Sorry I am so naughty



Fundamental pillars of society have changed and are changing, Skynet will take care of the rest

You made some valid points that did make me pause and think. It would be intellectually dishonest of me not to grant you that.
You dont have to breastfeed. Synthetic babymilk or supplying pre filled bottles to daycare is entirely possible. It's more that it's good for mother and baby to have this time together, the same principle which is applied to father's.

So yes, in principle you should be against these spongers as well.
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  #57  
Old 21.09.2020, 21:58
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Iím actually for this because:
1. Mothers are sent home quicker after birth and can use the help
2. Not everyone has a mother to help them out
3. Fathers should become as quickly involved in baby care as possible

I understand the counter argument that we have enough holiday as it is but Ferien ist ein heilige Kuh here ... no one wants to give it up for baby care if possible.
Wow!
Which kind of leads back to Talk to you later's question of why do people reproduce?
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  #58  
Old 21.09.2020, 22:01
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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So yes, in principle you should be against these spongers as well.
So my 6 months of unpaid leave for both Mum and Dad to bond with the kid is a perfect solution
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You dont have to breastfeed. Synthetic babymilk or supplying pre filled bottles to daycare is entirely possible.
I will make you in charge of implementing the details
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  #59  
Old 21.09.2020, 22:12
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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So you agree that I contributed to the pension pot and not taking something I did not contribute to? What is the issue then?
(Many) fathers also contribute to taxes and hence "do not take something they did not contribute to". No? What is the issue then?
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  #60  
Old 21.09.2020, 22:17
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

How about the way in "Starship troopers" You can only have children if you are a citizen, to be a citizen you have to prove your worth to society.

And that my friends is how evolution by eugenics works, perhaps the only way our species can survive in the long term, come to think about it.
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