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  #101  
Old 22.09.2020, 12:58
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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I only have 2 kids!
I retire in 15 years, you still have time for the other 3
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Thanks for increasing housing demand! The conversion of green fields to asphalt and concrete could not be done without your much valuable contribution. In the name of the construction I thank you in advance for the thousands of CHF you'll pay soon to support us
No no, just an old wooden goat shed
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  #102  
Old 22.09.2020, 13:02
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Nah, you don't get to leave so early a party you invited people to....
I gave you 6 pages worth of entertainment. Would be so funny if in real life I had 5 kids.
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  #103  
Old 22.09.2020, 13:13
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Take a vacation to somewhere that there isn't sufficient money to have an effective police force see what happens. There was a story on the BBC this morning about two women and their kids who were shot in cold blood by the army in Africa.

A world were there are no more young people would be a dead planet.
Well, that's a really strange example as there are many young people in Africa. Some countries have median age of 15 years.
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  #104  
Old 22.09.2020, 13:14
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

When I still havenít heard an answer to is why the current generous vacation entitlements is not adequate to serve this need. OK some people may only get a couple of weeks, so that might need tweaking, but many get at least six. Why do they need more?

And what about their colleagues who have to cover for them?
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  #105  
Old 22.09.2020, 13:19
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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When I still havenít heard an answer to is why the current generous vacation entitlements is not adequate to serve this need. OK some people may only get a couple of weeks, so that might need tweaking, but many get at least six. Why do they need more?
Legally it is four, some have five, six is mostly unheard of in CH.

Tom
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  #106  
Old 22.09.2020, 13:32
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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When I still havenít heard an answer to is why the current generous vacation entitlements is not adequate to serve this need.
Finally something I can help with. I had 6 months off for the first nipper and 4 months for the second, while She Who Must Be Obeyed had 10 months off for the first and 11 for the second. This was only just enough time off for us to organise ourselves to keep everyone fed, dressed and occasionally bathed over the duration. Perhaps it is different for people who have children who sleep at night, or who have grandparents who live less than 1500km away, but the notion of going back to work with a 6 week old squaller at home strikes me as pure insanity.
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  #107  
Old 22.09.2020, 13:59
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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When I still havenít heard an answer to is why the current generous vacation entitlements is not adequate to serve this need.
100 years ago, people were working 6 days per week, 10 hours per day.
Today we are working 42h/week. Why not have 35 h/week in the future? Or 30 hours?
There is absolutely nothing saying that the status quo must be preserved.


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OK some people may only get a couple of weeks, so that might need tweaking, but many get at least six. Why do they need more?
I can imagine the same argument back in time: "they have Sunday free, what more do they want?"
If you are happy with 4-5 weeks of holiday, it doesn't mean we are all happy.

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And what about their colleagues who have to cover for them?
How about the companies hiring more people?
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  #108  
Old 22.09.2020, 14:00
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

Children that don't have involved fathers tend to live less long and have vastly more mental health problems. Most long term disability in the world is now rooted in mental health. So having a father be involved in actually raising his kids instead of ignoring them would reduce the cost to society in the long run.

Calling parental leave a vacation is a hilarious joke. I also love it when men don't realise how much hate their wives had against them after the birth of their babies. What do you think these early baby and mommy groups are about? 90% of these women are tactically figuring out how to leave their husbands because having a baby has turned most of the fathers into children.

If you actually have a partner that is responsible, you will be so uncomfortable in these women's spaces for new moms. Most would be so much happier divorced.
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  #109  
Old 22.09.2020, 15:20
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Children that don't have involved fathers tend to live less long and have vastly more mental health problems. Most long term disability in the world is now rooted in mental health. So having a father be involved in actually raising his kids instead of ignoring them would reduce the cost to society in the long run.
A single study doesn't constitute scientific consensus. And has it been controlled for single parenthood and (temporarily) absent fathers, family income, and the crime rate they grew up with?

A father who wants to be involved will be with or without those two weeks, whereas a father who doesn't won't change his mind because of them either. Those two weeks change nothing, all they do is increase society's cost for a personal lifestyle decision.

The Swiss voting population rejected 6 mandatory holiday weeks for the working population some ten years ago. This would merely introduce it for a select few through the backdoor.
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  #110  
Old 22.09.2020, 15:38
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Or ALIVE PLANET
At least until the Ibuprofen runs out.
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  #111  
Old 22.09.2020, 16:00
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

Thanks for your responses. But no one has actually answered my question.
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  #112  
Old 22.09.2020, 16:27
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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When I still haven’t heard an answer to is why the current generous vacation entitlements is not adequate to serve this need. OK some people may only get a couple of weeks, so that might need tweaking, but many get at least six. Why do they need more?

And what about their colleagues who have to cover for them?
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Thanks for your responses. But no one has actually answered my question.
I'll try then ...

Firstly, most get 4 some 5 weeks. However, I agree with you that at least some of these weeks could be taken right after the childbirth.
As you surely know, the decision when vacation days can be taken is made by the employer.

With the new legislation, no employer can deny any father vacation right after the birth of his child.
I know, that wouldn't happen in your, sorry, "expat bubble" whatever that means, but it happens in some of the lower paid jobs regularly (just anecdotal evidence from my side).

Edit: Btw, teachers can't take vacation days outside school holidays. A good friend of mine had to go back to school one day after his son was born.
I got 10 vacation days from Basel-Stadt, he is working in canton Solothurn and just got 1.

Last edited by Elu; 22.09.2020 at 16:44.
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  #113  
Old 22.09.2020, 16:39
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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When I still haven’t heard an answer to is why the current generous vacation entitlements is not adequate to serve this need. OK some people may only get a couple of weeks, so that might need tweaking, but many get at least six. Why do they need more?
I don't think it's a question of need. It's a question of encouraging and supporting fathers to be there after the birth of the child and engaging. I think it's also rather nice for a society (or individual companies) to offer these things.

It saddens me that many people seem to get angry or jealous if a sector of society receive a benefit to which they're currently not in a position to take up. "It's not fair! "
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  #114  
Old 22.09.2020, 16:50
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Ok you can have it but what was the issue with 2 weeks unpaid or even 3-6 months unpaid? Maybe work 50% if money is an issue so you can still play and earn?

Their life won't be same again by CHOICE though.
Having children isn't simply about being a matter of choice, though. Some perceive it as being a necessity to help them when they're older (having someone to help take care of them when they're elderly). Imagine a society where most elderly people don't have children and what kind of financial drain that would come to have on a system, if most elderly people required assistance from the government. My husband goes to his elderly mother's home once per week just so she can have a shower and have her apartment vacuumed, etc. and he does her shopping for her.

Not to mention the fact that having children or wanting children is part of our nature and part of the underlying "gears" that generate evolution. Self-preservation is one component of the biological basis of human evolution, and having offspring is an aspect of self-preservation. So just because you are able to "turn off" your desire to have children, don't extend that to everyone else, because for some people, that is something they just don't really have an on/off switch for.

Also, paying taxes isn't simply about the way it benefits YOU (or doesn't). It's about the ways it benefits society in general. You claim that it is people's choice to have children, but keep in mind that it is also your choice not to.

And being that you are someone who has never had children and therefore has never experienced how stressful it is to have a newborn baby, I don't think you're really in the position to accurately judge whether or not a father should be easily able to spend two weeks with his new baby and his wife who just had just given birth. I myself had a C-section and then a heart attack (due to the birth) five days later and can say that, even regardless of the heart attack, it was the most stressful few weeks of my life; and I'm not sure I would have been able to get through it without losing my mind if it wasn't for the help of my husband.

Last edited by Pancakes; 22.09.2020 at 17:38.
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  #115  
Old 22.09.2020, 17:04
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Why you should single out benefits for children I don't know - would you also remove disability allowances, as you're apparently able-bodied? Get rid of unemployment benefit if you've always had a job? Where would it end?
Maybe a projection of a personal grievance:

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I don't have all the answers but I believe in personal responsibility. I know someone who is in an unstable brand-new relationship but will have 3 kids. First one is on the way already. Now chances of the relationship lasting are low, but her priority is to have 3 kids at any cost! It is an accessory! Who am I to judge but why do I have to pay?

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I don't think it's a question of need. It's a question of encouraging and supporting fathers to be there after the birth of the child and engaging. I think it's also rather nice for a society (or individual companies) to offer these things.
I agree with this. Many might feel a subconscious pressure to not use their holidays, just as some folk would work themselves to death if there weren't laws preventing it. If the decision to take leave is taken out of the hands of working fathers then they don't need to be concerned about judgement.
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  #116  
Old 22.09.2020, 18:07
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

Iím certainly not complaining that others are getting a benefit that I am not getting. I am retired Iíve got 365 days paternity leave with the kittens.

But if the problem is that it is difficult or impossible to get leave when the baby is born, then why not address that problem?

I suspect this will benefit the middle to upper class, and do little for low wage earners. Particularly those that couldnít afford the 20% cut in salary for the parental leave period.

It seems we are focusing on solutions to something when we are not that certain what the problem is.
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  #117  
Old 22.09.2020, 18:14
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

I am also very much in favour of personal responsibility and hold such unpopular opinions as "if you are already too broke to look after one kid properly, why on earth would you choose to have a second or even third?". However, that is an entirely different discussion about long term financial support.

Having fathers being entitled to two weeks' paternity leave not only benefits those with children, it will hopefully start a shift in mindset. It is important that the focus on women as "ticking fertility bombs" becomes less damaging to their prospects of having a career. Unfortunately, this preconception harms all women, regardless of whether they actually plan to have kids. It also strikes me as unfair to have me somehow at an advantage because I definitely do not want children. Mind you, a taxi driver recently spent most of the journey trying to convince me that not having children is a miserable existence, so I am clearly a poor wretched thing outside of the business world.

As someone else mentioned, bosses can currently deny your request to use two weeks' holiday allowance as paternity leave. I know of one case that basically did exactly that because he found the whole idea preposterous. The same person would throw a tantrum when one of the mams on the team had to stay home because her kid was sick but also thought I was insane to suggest that dads should take over on 50% of those days. This lunacy needs to stop.

Just as placing emotional labour and supporting activities with female staff by default needs to stop. Or job ads that mention certain clothing sizes when you are not some kind of model or hostess that needs to fit in a uniform. When I was still job hunting last year and looking into similar roles as the one I had (executive assistant/event coordinator/internal process manager/general fixer and improver of things), I saw more than one ad for assistant roles that mentioned the need to be "extremely well-presented" or even "slim and elegant". In one case, it was a job with some SME that produces something for the construction sector. I can understand a fancy pants private bank with UHNWI wanting their staff to be "representative" but Hans-Ulrich Hugentobler, CEO of MirMachedSachš AG in Uzwil (all names fictional)? The 1950s would like their mindset back, please... We do not exist to look pretty and have children.

Paternity leave is not just about two weeks' extra time for new dads. It's about having emotional labour being done by men being given a certain value by law. It's also about more room at the table for all women. It's about employers having to stop this nonsense of keeping all staff permanently working at 110% capacity with no resources to cover unforeseen events. Finally, it's also about the notion of not making everything dependent on a single employee by default. If you cannot manage to work around a man missing two weeks of work twice (taking averages here) during his 47 year career, you are really not terribly good at planning your resources.

It's two bloody weeks. How is this even such a big debate? Two months, sure, I would be more weary but in a way, I still think the Swedish model where there is a total time allocated to both parents and they can pretty much decide how to divvy it up is the only truly progressive approach.
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  #118  
Old 22.09.2020, 18:14
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

I think another aspect of it is that quite often, women have no idea when their baby will arrive, and so it's difficult -- if not impossible -- for the father to schedule the right days off of work (holiday time), in advance. I've also read before that this is one of the reasons more women are choosing to have a C-section -- because then they can plan and know in advance when the baby will come.
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  #119  
Old 22.09.2020, 18:53
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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I think another aspect of it is that quite often, women have no idea when their baby will arrive, and so it's difficult -- if not impossible -- for the father to schedule the right days off of work (holiday time), in advance. I've also read before that this is one of the reasons more women are choosing to have a C-section -- because then they can plan and know in advance when the baby will come.
My first child arrived in 1991. So back in the stone-age for many people here. But - they gave me a pager so my wife could notify me when she thought she was in labour, they already had 8 days paternity leave as policy, and management (at least mine) were totally on board with unpredictability. The birth was traumatic - it took my wife a year to recover (and then we had 2 more kids ), and I was afforded every flexibility.

Decency compassion and understanding, aren't things invented recently.
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  #120  
Old 22.09.2020, 18:58
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Particularly those that couldnít afford the 20% cut in salary for the parental leave period.
If this doesn't go through, then it's 100% cut in salary for that period, unless you dig into you holiday allowance.

I think the idea is to encourage employers to do this simple decent thing. Many will top it up to 100%.
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