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  #121  
Old 22.09.2020, 20:01
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

By the way the pampers fund (i.e. Kinderzulage) is also costing the OP.
Not to mention the subsidized health car that ups the OP's.
But hey! That's socialism!
But remember kid's are the future.
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  #122  
Old 22.09.2020, 20:04
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

LOL, our first child was born in 73, and the second in 75. Both times, we had just moved for a new job for OH, and you just did NOT ask for time off in those days, ever- or your career was over. The fact your wife just had an emergency C section and was home on day 3, with no support of family, and stuck in the boonies without a car, was just neither here nor there.



Oh and we certainly did NOT have pampers, nor a washing machine the smell of Napisan will haunt me forever. Even my mum had a big automatic washing machine in the 50s.




We coped- somehow. But I for one would be delighted if young families have the chance to bond and have more time together. So I will vote YES.

Last edited by JackieH; 22.09.2020 at 21:14.
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  #123  
Old 22.09.2020, 21:03
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

Is everyone aware that the current 14 weeks granted to women dates from 2005? Considering the first moves for proper paid maternity leave at the federal level started in 1945, it's pretty embarrassing that it took that long. And of course, the same arguments were put forth then as they are now.
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  #124  
Old 23.09.2020, 00:37
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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A single study doesn't constitute scientific consensus. And has it been controlled for single parenthood and (temporarily) absent fathers, family income, and the crime rate they grew up with?

A father who wants to be involved will be with or without those two weeks, whereas a father who doesn't won't change his mind because of them either. Those two weeks change nothing, all they do is increase society's cost for a personal lifestyle decision.

The Swiss voting population rejected 6 mandatory holiday weeks for the working population some ten years ago. This would merely introduce it for a select few through the backdoor.
I'm not sure what crime has to do with it. We live in Switzerland, there isn't all that much crime. There are quite a lot of absentee fathers. I've worked with some of them and gone to school with their kids. Those two weeks is society's way of telling me. That raising a child is not the sole responsibility of the mother.

I can't imagine you've actually raised a child if you consider paternity leave to be a vacation. I'm very glad my husband got three months so we could be spared the presence of grandparents and post partum depression.
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  #125  
Old 23.09.2020, 00:56
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

To the OP, welcome to being part of the society. We all pay for things that we don't use. It is called solidarity and it leads to a better community. If you only want to fend for yourself, you should move to wilderness and become a hermit. However, even then, someone is probably paying for protecting that wilderness.
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  #126  
Old 23.09.2020, 01:46
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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A father who wants to be involved will be with or without those two weeks, whereas a father who doesn't won't change his mind because of them either. Those two weeks change nothing, all they do is increase society's cost for a personal lifestyle decision.
I know several fathers who - throughout the pregnancy - said very silly things. He envied his wife who, he said, was going to be on a permanent holiday once the baby was born, while he'd have to work hard all day to support them all, and that no way, no how were they going to be changing nappies, etc.

Then Baby was born. Real, live, crying, cooing, desperate Baby, with needs that shouldn't be ignored. And so cute and so soft and vulnerable.

Despite all the cliché declarations beforehand, there he suddenly was, participating, relating, getting on with housework, when once he actually saw how exhausted the woman was post birth, how non-stop that responsibility is, towards Baby and any older children, how hard it is to get enough sleep to even think about the next meal for the adults, let alone deal with the laundry or change the bed-linen. And try to cope with all the instructions from Aunt Mathilde.

In these cases, those few days or weeks the man spent with his wife and new baby, suddenly showed him what he had not imagined before: how energy-consuming each day and night had suddenly become. He realised he'd have to (and surprisingly, really wanted to) and certainly ought to participate in the tedious parts of waking, sleeping, feeding, changing, dressing, laundry and remembering to shop and to air the home. And he found that he did all of those things because he held on his forearm a tiny, real person he wanted to get to know.

So yes, that time did, indeed, change his mind. And heart.
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  #127  
Old 23.09.2020, 01:55
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Is everyone aware that the current 14 weeks granted to women dates from 2005? Considering the first moves for proper paid maternity leave at the federal level started in 1945, it's pretty embarrassing that it took that long. And of course, the same arguments were put forth then as they are now.
14 weeks maternity is pretty pathetic tbh. WHO advice is that babies should be exclusively breastfed for six months, and mostly breastfed until 1. Failing to support this will inevitably have long term consequences.

From my perspective it'd be nice to prioritise getting maternity leave up to 52 weeks before tackling paternity leave. For this reason I'd probably vote against.

I get 14 weeks Paternity leave with my company - which I find almost unbelievably generous. But then my wife is Chinese and when they have a baby the cavalry arrive to help (we had not only grandma and grandad but also great aunt). So I actually had a comparatively relaxing time (even the birth was only 2 hours after arrival in the hospital)!

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 23.09.2020 at 02:10.
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  #128  
Old 23.09.2020, 08:40
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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When I still haven’t heard an answer to is why the current generous vacation entitlements is not adequate to serve this need. OK some people may only get a couple of weeks, so that might need tweaking, but many get at least six. Why do they need more?

And what about their colleagues who have to cover for them?
if you think having a new born baby in the house is a vacation, you got a nasty shock coming.
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  #129  
Old 23.09.2020, 08:55
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

To keep the party going, someone said, "Kids are our future", my questions is, a good future or a bad future? Kids are just people and like people some can be asset to the society and some a drain on society. All 100% will be a drain on the planet though (important point as some parents keep going on about the future of planet etc).

I propose a compromise, you are allowed to have 2 kids and will get slightly more support than now. Any more kids and you are on your own

As part of the above proposal, a licensing system will also be required, just like when taking a car test, the requirements -
a) Are you fit to be a parent?
b) Intensive training on how to be a good parent.

I will volunteer to set it all up, in return all I ask for is a high quality wooden goat hut away from society up in the mountains.

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if you think having a new born baby in the house is a vacation, you got a nasty shock coming.
Well you are doing something you chose to do and skiving work, that is vacation for me
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  #130  
Old 23.09.2020, 08:58
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

That’s nothing! We had to live in a hole in the ground. And eat gravel for breakfast.

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LOL, our first child was born in 73, and the second in 75. Both times, we had just moved for a new job for OH, and you just did NOT ask for time off in those days, ever- or your career was over. The fact your wife just had an emergency C section and was home on day 3, with no support of family, and stuck in the boonies without a car, was just neither here nor there.



Oh and we certainly did NOT have pampers, nor a washing machine the smell of Napisan will haunt me forever. Even my mum had a big automatic washing machine in the 50s.




We coped- somehow. But I for one would be delighted if young families have the chance to bond and have more time together. So I will vote YES.
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  #131  
Old 23.09.2020, 09:08
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

That sounds tough Nickatbasel. We had it harder though, I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.
Oh and on Sundays I had to be an altar boy too
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  #132  
Old 23.09.2020, 09:10
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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To keep the party going, someone said, "Kids are our future", my questions is, a good future or a bad future? Kids are just people and like people some can be asset to the society and some a drain on society. All 100% will be a drain on the planet though (important point as some parents keep going on about the future of planet etc).

I propose a compromise, you are allowed to have 2 kids and will get slightly more support than now. Any more kids and you are on your own

As part of the above proposal, a licensing system will also be required, just like when taking a car test, the requirements -
a) Are you fit to be a parent?
b) Intensive training on how to be a good parent.

I will volunteer to set it all up, in return all I ask for is a high quality wooden goat hut away from society up in the mountains.

Well you are doing something you chose to do and skiving work, that is vacation for me
Interesting. In the same vein:

I propose only expats be allowed into Switzerland who:

1. sign a contract that they will go back to their country of origin if they lose their job
2. have xxxx in their bank accounts upon arrival

(Two can play at this game)
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  #133  
Old 23.09.2020, 09:23
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Interesting. In the same vein:

I propose only expats be allowed into Switzerland who:

1. sign a contract that they will go back to their country of origin if they lose their job
2. have xxxx in their bank accounts upon arrival

(Two can play at this game)
I don't see the connection with the kids thread but sounds like a good plan.
1- I came here jobless
2- My bank account had -1000 (xxxx, perfectly matches your 4 Xs)


Step by step though, how is my high quality wooden hut coming along?
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  #134  
Old 23.09.2020, 09:24
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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I don't see the connection with the kids thread but sounds like a good plan.
1- I came here jobless
2- My bank account had -1000 (xxxx, perfectly matches your 4 Xs)


Step by step though, how is my high quality wooden hut coming along?
Well done.
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  #135  
Old 23.09.2020, 10:07
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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From my perspective it'd be nice to prioritise getting maternity leave up to 52 weeks before tackling paternity leave. For this reason I'd probably vote against.
Agreed! Along with better and more affordable childcare once the parents have to go back to work.
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  #136  
Old 23.09.2020, 10:10
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I propose a compromise, you are allowed to have 2 kids and will get slightly more support than now. Any more kids and you are on your own

As part of the above proposal, a licensing system will also be required, just like when taking a car test, the requirements -
a) Are you fit to be a parent?
b) Intensive training on how to be a good parent.


I have to agree with this - to think of what parents have to go through in order to adopt, there must be a certain amount of accountability enforced if they want to breed...but the actuality of it gets rather tricky and you can soon slide into authoritarianism. Will be interesting to see what happens in society the more and more resources are strained.

This gem from the film Idiocracy says it all:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP2tUW0HDHA
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  #137  
Old 23.09.2020, 10:19
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Is everyone aware that the current 14 weeks granted to women dates from 2005? Considering the first moves for proper paid maternity leave at the federal level started in 1945, it's pretty embarrassing that it took that long. And of course, the same arguments were put forth then as they are now.
In all fairness, I knew that CH is behind many countries in regards with maternity leave etc. I don't know why other people are so surprised that things are not as they are "back home". I really grew to respect and like the Swiss fiscal responsibility and frugality.
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  #138  
Old 23.09.2020, 11:02
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

I have no children and never want any. I am also a woman. And one who occasionally gets annoyed by other women who have 3 kids in 3 years and effectively don't show up to work for just as long (my company's mat leave is longer plus comes with the right to extend, unpaid but with job guarantee). I'm also a high earner who can deduct nothing and therefore pays substantial tax.

But I voted yes to pat leave anyway and see no reason why I wouldn't vote yes. If we have money for the military - totally necessary seeing the many wars we fight in regularly - we have money for this.

I'm also pro affordable childcare, even if subsidized, and believe the high cost of that - along with cultural aspects plus generally relatively high wealth - are the reasons many women never properly go back to work, which in turn makes their usually more or less government-funded education a complete waste and an economic idiocy.

A Germany-situation is nothing to strive for imo. Neither is a US situation. As often, Switzerland is somewhere in the middle and I find that quite ok.

Nobody's professional life is ruined (or should be ruined) because they take off a week once or twice in their life or 14 weeks once or twice. While not the same situation, it reminds me of my 9-month sabbatical some 6 or 7 years ago where my company went like "oh you're going to ruin your career (?)". I didn't care, left, and a day after I came back it was as if I had never been away, and years later, most people don't even remember at all or know that I was ever away for a while.
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  #139  
Old 23.09.2020, 11:02
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

LOL I just loved that sketch - so you made me laugh.


Only what I said was true, lol.
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  #140  
Old 23.09.2020, 12:19
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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14 weeks maternity is pretty pathetic tbh. WHO advice is that babies should be exclusively breastfed for six months, and mostly breastfed until 1. Failing to support this will inevitably have long term consequences.

From my perspective it'd be nice to prioritise getting maternity leave up to 52 weeks before tackling paternity leave. For this reason I'd probably vote against.
Absolutely not, as it would only increase the level of discrimination against women in the workplace. Also - not all mams want to spend an entire year at home with their kid. Some couldn't wait to return to work after the 14 weeks. You can love your child and still want to have the same opportunities as your partner. You can have other people caring for your child and still be a good mother.
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