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Old 23.09.2020, 11:30
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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I don't see the connection with the kids thread but sounds like a good plan.
1- I came here jobless
2- My bank account had -1000 (xxxx, perfectly matches your 4 Xs)


Step by step though, how is my high quality wooden hut coming along?
Some people cannot afford having children. Some people do not have children because affording them gets unpredictable. Some people say that the planet is overopulated as it is. To be honest - nobody should feel like they have to justify their choice (assuming it was a choice).
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  #142  
Old 23.09.2020, 11:50
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Absolutely not, as it would only increase the level of discrimination against women in the workplace. Also - not all mams want to spend an entire year at home with their kid. Some couldn't wait to return to work after the 14 weeks. You can love your child and still want to have the same opportunities as your partner. You can have other people caring for your child and still be a good mother.
Personally I think that if the government / soceity is genuinely concerned that there aren't enough kids being born, then rather than creating a widget here and a deedaboo there, we ought to just give money to women or couples who have children. Either in the form of an increased chld allowance or as a one off payment at childbirth, or a combination. It can be either cash in hand or some pension or tax incentive, or a combination, although i would prefer the latter option as some people will otherwise just blow the money. Parents can then decide if they want to take that money and use it to afford extending their maternity leave, or taking paternity leave, or hiring a babysitter / daycare and going back to work at the earliest opportunity. In other words, different solutions for different people and preferences rather than a one size fits all measure.

All these little feel-good measures are being pushed through on the promise that they will make having children more attractive, but the birthrate isn't picking up, so to me that looks like measures that are not working.

I like the Hungarian system for example whereby having a child means the government will underwrite a certain part of your mortgage and so it is easier for young families with little spare cash to get onto the property ladder. The more kids you have, the less you need to repay. That's not cash in hand that some alcoholic dad is going to drink away, but something to build on.
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  #143  
Old 23.09.2020, 12:00
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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I will volunteer to set it all up, in return all I ask for is a high quality wooden goat hut away from society up in the mountains.

About the goat hut in the mountains and profiting from something you didn't pay.......ever heard of the Swiss national equalization system? https://www.efd.admin.ch/efd/en/home...ausgleich.html

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The individual cantons do not have access to the same amount of financial resources due to their different economic and population structures. In addition, their geographical situation or role as a central canton results in differing requirements concerning the performance of tasks. Fiscal equalization systems were developed at the cantonal and federal level in order to reduce these inequalities.

Resource equalization is based on the resource potential of the cantons. It is made up of the taxable income and assets of natural persons and the taxable profits of companies. The potential levels are used to divide the cantons into financially strong and financially weak cantons. Financially weak cantons receive freely disposable financial resources from the financially strong cantons (horizontal resource equalization) and from the Confederation (vertical resource equalization). Tax competition is maintained in the process.

Cost compensation concerns excessive costs associated with geographical/topographic and socio-demographic factors which, for structural reasons, result in higher costs for the provision of public goods and services. The Alpine cantons have higher costs for infrastructure, winter road maintenance and schools (e.g. school buses), for instance. The centrally situated cantons frequently have an above-average proportion of elderly, poor and foreign people.
It takes 2 neurons to conclude that elderly living in the mountains is a cocktail of higher expenses to provide basic services such as health, water, electricity, road infrastructure, public transport, etc. At least say thanks to the people working in the foggy plains that contribute to the national equalization system

The sharing resources idea is ingrained in the Swiss federalist system. Transfers to parents are just one among thousands of transfers. If you ever move to the mountains, collect signatures for a referendum to stop transfers from rich cantons to mountain cantons.....if principles matter. Or make a roadblock, snow plows shall not pass, profiting from something you didn't pay is wrong
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  #144  
Old 23.09.2020, 13:08
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Personally I think that if the government / soceity is genuinely concerned that there aren't enough kids being born, then rather than creating a widget here and a deedaboo there, we ought to just give money to women or couples who have children.
Well, I don't think people should be encouraged financially, it is more a case of not being actively discouraged. I don't think people will go "cool, lower mortgage, let's have kids". Or maybe the sort of person who sees kids as a way to freeload will have them and I honestly don't think that is fair on said kids.

So when it comes to measures that make things easier and more equitable for those who would struggle from a logistical standpoint, go ahead. To me, that includes longer paternity leave and better access to child care with means-tested pricing. And while we are at it, can we please adjust the pensions system to not penalise those who choose to work part time?

What I don't really want is "incentives per number of children produced". In the end, it is still a personal choice and I feel that anything more than two kids is a luxury that I don't feel like footing the bill for. If you are struggling financially, how much will we all have to contribute long-term? Will they be able to finance their own education if you can't? What about health insurance? Dental work?
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  #145  
Old 23.09.2020, 13:15
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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So the lady across the street in her 30s with 4-5 kids is getting rewarded CHF1500 per month for not giving a damn about family planning?

CHF300 per month meets roughly my grocery needs, so hardly chump change. Most here probably spend that amount on one night out.
Compared to my "solidarity" salary deductions (AHV is a highly redistributive tax), progressive income tax, VAT and other taxes, this CHF300 is peanuts.

A monthly gross CHF 300 pales with the direct costs and lost income, which totals for the first 18 years to the estimated *net* 327k for one child and 570k for two children:
https://www.handelszeitung.ch/geld/s...ostet-ein-kind

Someone would have to be insane (or childfree) to think a one-off, two-week paternal holiday or CHF 300 (gross :-) ) could be an incentive to procreate.
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  #146  
Old 23.09.2020, 13:20
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Well, I don't think people should be encouraged financially, it is more a case of not being actively discouraged. I don't think people will go "cool, lower mortgage, let's have kids". Or maybe the sort of person who sees kids as a way to freeload will have them and I honestly don't think that is fair on said kids.

So when it comes to measures that make things easier and more equitable for those who would struggle from a logistical standpoint, go ahead. To me, that includes longer paternity leave and better access to child care with means-tested pricing. And while we are at it, can we please adjust the pensions system to not penalise those who choose to work part time?

What I don't really want is "incentives per number of children produced". In the end, it is still a personal choice and I feel that anything more than two kids is a luxury that I don't feel like footing the bill for. If you are struggling financially, how much will we all have to contribute long-term? Will they be able to finance their own education if you can't? What about health insurance? Dental work?
What if people are actually actively discouraged to have children by onerous taxes and salary contributions so that the child-frees can also have a ride despite not having offsprings putting money to the public pot.
In all the primitive societies the parents have an incentive to have children which will work in the same household and win bread for them.
But in the "socialized" modern societies one's children cannot pay for their parents directly, but only indirectly through the social system, so there is no direct material incentive to have ones children or to pay attention to their education, social norms etc.
So maybe the issue is not that someone has to pay for other people's children, but the opposite is actually happening (given the current fertility rates in social economies which might be use as in indication of it).
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  #147  
Old 23.09.2020, 13:21
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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I like the Hungarian system for example whereby having a child means the government will underwrite a certain part of your mortgage and so it is easier for young families with little spare cash to get onto the property ladder. The more kids you have, the less you need to repay. That's not cash in hand that some alcoholic dad is going to drink away, but something to build on.
How about making one's pension correlated to taxes/deductions paid by their children? :-)
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  #148  
Old 23.09.2020, 13:45
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Well, I don't think people should be encouraged financially, it is more a case of not being actively discouraged. I don't think people will go "cool, lower mortgage, let's have kids".
I know people who did precisely that. Well, they were planning to have kids anyway at some point, but decided to start earlier because it was interesting financially

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Or maybe the sort of person who sees kids as a way to freeload will have them and I honestly don't think that is fair on said kids.
Freeloaders and people milking the system for handouts are typically not going to be in a position to qualify for a mortgage at all. The system thus clearly favours those who are trying hard but struggling.

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What I don't really want is "incentives per number of children produced". In the end, it is still a personal choice and I feel that anything more than two kids is a luxury that I don't feel like footing the bill for. If you are struggling financially, how much will we all have to contribute long-term? Will they be able to finance their own education if you can't? What about health insurance? Dental work?
If help with the mortgage isn't incentivizing people to have children, I don't think help with the dental bills is going to have any different effect. With this type of measure you need to ask, is the purpose

1) to incentivize people to have children
2) to lend a helping hand to people who already do but are struggling
3) for politicians to appease their voter base and look good

1 and 2 are both valid points, but honesty is required and many people are saying 1 when they mean 2.
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  #149  
Old 23.09.2020, 13:58
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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How about making one's pension correlated to taxes/deductions paid by their children? :-)
What about people who can't have kids and are not eligible to adopt?
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  #150  
Old 23.09.2020, 14:00
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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What about people who can't have kids and are not eligible to adopt?
It's an incentive. It's not coercion.
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  #151  
Old 23.09.2020, 14:01
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Freeloaders and people milking the system for handouts are typically not going to be in a position to qualify for a mortgage at all. The system thus clearly favours those who are trying hard but struggling.
The mortgage example was just one of the measures mentioned. I'm also not sure how helpful this particular measure would be in Switzerland, as there are not that many properties available in the first place.
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  #152  
Old 23.09.2020, 14:19
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Absolutely not, as it would only increase the level of discrimination against women in the workplace. Also - not all mams want to spend an entire year at home with their kid. Some couldn't wait to return to work after the 14 weeks. You can love your child and still want to have the same opportunities as your partner. You can have other people caring for your child and still be a good mother.
52 weeks compulsory paid leave for the mother and father.

then everybody has the same opportunities and no need for discrimination.

if you don't want to look after the kid, leave it with dad and go on holiday for a year.
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  #153  
Old 23.09.2020, 14:23
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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I know people who did precisely that. Well, they were planning to have kids anyway at some point, but decided to start earlier because it was interesting financially
anyone thinking that having kids is 'interesting financially' in the positive sense probably did their sums wrong.

when you work out how much it actually costs for a kid, it's a wonder families exist at all!

i guess financial incentives exist because most people have very little leeway in their budgets and a kid would basically put them under water were it not for the various financial breaks available.
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  #154  
Old 23.09.2020, 14:23
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

If I was given a free nice mountain hut + CHF9000 per month for next 18 years per child, I just might decide to have two, purely for the benefit of society of course. Now that is what you call a real incentive

Nah! Cross that, still not worth wasting my energy and life on a kid

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52 weeks compulsory paid leave for the mother and father.

then everybody has the same opportunities and no need for discrimination.

if you don't want to look after the kid, leave it with dad and go on holiday for a year.
What about child-free people? Do they get 52 weeks paid holiday too?
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Old 23.09.2020, 14:24
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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If I was given a free nice mountain hut + CHF9000 per month for next 18 years per child, I just might decide to have two, purely for the benefit of society of course. Now that is what you call a real incentive

Nah! Cross that, still not worth wasting my energy and life on a kid


What about child-free people? Do they get 52 weeks paid holiday too?
yes, once they have a kid.
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  #156  
Old 23.09.2020, 14:26
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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What about people who can't have kids and are not eligible to adopt?
for this, god invented cats.

the running costs are low plus they can even look after themselves while you're at work!
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  #157  
Old 23.09.2020, 14:28
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

There are better incentives for higher birth rate - free quality health insurance till 18 (26) as is back home. 4 yr mat leave, free day care, one of the highest quality IVFs, free quality schooling, pregnancy leave, top post neonatal care, one off cash payouts when baby is delivered, etc. But. Since there is no free lunch anywhere - the reason why it functions is the fact that doctors, nurses, teachers, professors and scientists get really low salaries. So while the whole country pulls together for more kids - it really is a giant team effort - birth rates still stagnate. Unsure future = low birth rates and pregnancies late in life like here. I don't really know how to fix it - maybe better quality coupling, more reliable dads (incl pat leave).
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Old 23.09.2020, 14:30
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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i don't really know how to fix it - maybe better quality coupling
hehe

i think lower fertility rate is a consequence of increasing affluence/healthcare (no need to have 7 kids and hope that one survives) and women entering the workforce/higher education and deferring/abandoning child-rearing.

not sure it is an option to go back a few decades and have only men work and not have women go into higher education. maybe it could go in the opposite direction: then women go study and work and the men stay at home and look after the kids.
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Old 23.09.2020, 14:35
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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anyone thinking that having kids is 'interesting financially' in the positive sense probably did their sums wrong.
Amogles just said something about changing the timing. Loads of couples do that, same with other investments.

I agree with how expensive it is, especially here. It gets even more insane where the second parent stops being financially reliable. Not paying off a mortgage is one thing. But not providing for your child is another level.
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Old 23.09.2020, 14:43
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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hehe

i think lower fertility rate is a consequence of increasing affluence/healthcare (no need to have 7 kids and hope that one survives) and women entering the workforce/higher education and deferring/abandoning child-rearing.

not sure it is an option to go back a few decades and have only men work and not have women go into higher education. maybe it could go in the opposite direction: then women go study and work and the men stay at home and look after the kids.
I think if they could rely on the guy, they wouldn't defer. Of course, then you also get those species who's baby is wanted by everybody, lol, but I read somewhere that in Scandinavia uni educated women now start reproducing early without counting on a guy being there (equal opportunities, free daycare makes it possible), couples do not live together anymore, either. So pat leave could be a surreptitious way of a society to remind a girl that it really is easier with a guy helping her out and most of all better for the baby (not always but the baby needs a shot at this). I wonder if it will work, hope so.
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