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Old 21.09.2020, 15:15
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I have to pay for your kids? :-O

This will be a bit controversial I guess as I will be in the minority. I was with a Swiss citizen who was filling the recent round of voting questions. Couple of questions got me thinking.

So fathers want 2 weeks PAID holiday after childbirth and parents want more money for kids if I understood correctly? As someone who decided not to have kids I just don't understand!!! If you want to have kids, why should others be paying for it

Did you not think about the consequences? In the dog thread I realized that it is not good idea for me to get a pet dog due to costs for starters. If I still go and get one why would I expect others to pay or contribute for its upkeep?


As for fathers, I think you should be able to take 4 weeks off, not just 2 that you are demanding, but please UNPAID leave only. Your kid, your holiday Ok, don't crucify me
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Old 21.09.2020, 15:23
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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....As someone who decided not to have kids ....
Have you thought about the consequences on Swiss society?
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Old 21.09.2020, 15:25
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Have you thought about the consequences on Swiss society?
Yes, I have and still saving and preparing for my upkeep What consequences are you specifically thinking about?
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Old 21.09.2020, 15:34
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

I understand that the paternity leave will be paid by those currently working. That doesn’t include me so I’m ambivalent about the cost. It’s probably a good thing though, if it’s used as intended.

But in a country where six vacation weeks is the norm is this really necessary?

Increasing the deductions for child care seems aimed at the middle to upper middle class, the people that least need additional deductions. More needs to be done to improve the situation for the lower wage earners, particularly working mothers.
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Old 21.09.2020, 15:42
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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What consequences are you specifically thinking about?
Birth rates are a matter of interest for every society. They're the future workforce, electorate, tax payers, etc. Off the top of my head, Hungary have had a number of financial incentives to boost their birth rate over the last 40yrs.
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Old 21.09.2020, 15:45
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

Follow-up point to SVA's point, people have kids because they think about the future of society? That has to be the biggest lie ever

I hear parents tell me that I am selfish for not having kids which confuses me

People reproduce because-

- Natural biological instinct to pass on their DNA so they can indirectly live forever.
- Someone to take care of them when they get old
- Don't want to feel lonely
- Have something to do and stay occupied
- Gives meaning to life

etc

Now all the above sound like selfish reasons to me compared to me not wanting to have kids and keep a self-sufficient small footprint. Less consumption of world resources, less pollution etc. Do you agree? See I am very unselfish
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Old 21.09.2020, 15:47
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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But in a country where six vacation weeks is the norm is this really necessary?
Six weeks' vacation is absolutely not the norm in Switzerland.
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Old 21.09.2020, 15:49
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

people have to pay for lots of things they don't use. schools, roads, sports facilities, (don't even get me started on Billag/Serafe). i mean, i'd be perfectly happy to scrap taxes all-together and we can fire all the police, army and hospitals. we can get rid of the courts and prisons too. we'll just buy guns and shoot anyone who can't make a living for themselves.

look on the bright side: you have no kids, so you can afford it!

Last edited by Phil_MCR; 23.09.2020 at 14:29.
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Old 21.09.2020, 15:50
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Follow-up point to SVA's point, people have kids because they think about the future of society? That has to be the biggest lie ever

I hear parents tell me that I am selfish for not having kids which confuses me

People reproduce because-

- Natural biological instinct to pass on their DNA so they can indirectly live forever.
- Someone to take care of them when they get old
- Don't want to feel lonely
- Have something to do and stay occupied
- Gives meaning to life

etc

Now all the above sound like selfish reasons to me compared to me not wanting to have kids and keep a self-sufficient small footprint. Less consumption of world resources, less pollution etc. Do you agree? See I am very unselfish
I suspect that sva was thinking more about the economic impact. Just about every country apart from China, India, and other massively overpopulated south Asian nations encourages its citizens to reproduce, to stimulate demand and keep the economy going. Forecasts indicate that the population of "first world" countries will start to reduce in just a few years if birth rates aren't boosted.
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Old 21.09.2020, 15:57
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Birth rates are a matter of interest for every society. They're the future workforce, electorate, tax payers, etc. Off the top of my head, Hungary have had a number of financial incentives to boost their birth rate over the last 40yrs.
I understand, but I am not convinced in the concept of taking world population up till we drain the planet 100%. The pension scheme seems like it will break anyway in the future. To me it all sounds like a race to the bottom. I would prefer reduction of world population, technology will help there too.

ZH buses used to be empty when I moved here, now I struggle to get a seat even though the buses are longer with more capacity.
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Old 21.09.2020, 15:59
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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I would prefer reduction of world population, technology will help there too.
Well suicide is legal here. Funny how all those who say they prefer a reduction in world population never make their own contribution in this way
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Old 21.09.2020, 16:12
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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we'll just buy guns and shoot anyone who can't make a living for themselves.
Now that sounds like a plan Seriously though, if you lose your job then I don't mind contributing as that can happen to anyone. On the other hand if you refuse to work when given the chance....

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look on the bright side: you have no kids, so you can afford it!
There is nothing but bright side, that is why I don't understand

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Well suicide is legal here. Funny how all those who say they prefer a reduction in world population never make their own contribution in this way
Not true, I am a signed up member. You are thinking about people who ask for reduction in world population while having 5 of their own kids. I am not one of them. I put my mouth where my money is.
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Old 21.09.2020, 16:17
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

I voted NO.

Tom
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Old 21.09.2020, 16:25
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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I suspect that sva was thinking more about the economic impact. Just about every country apart from China, India, and other massively overpopulated south Asian nations encourages its citizens to reproduce, to stimulate demand and keep the economy going. Forecasts indicate that the population of "first world" countries will start to reduce in just a few years if birth rates aren't boosted.
Well China, India, Africa, Middle East etc that is a big chunk of world population. They are perfect examples of what I don't want to happen to Switzerland. The pressure on natural resources is extremely high and political situation is always very volatile. As a planet we should be focusing on quality rather than quantity.

I am a semi hard-working guy who is not super loaded, please don't drain me financially that is all I am requesting Continue having kids but at your own expense, that is fair no?
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Old 21.09.2020, 16:34
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

You certainly have a point. When I was doing my teaching Degree in Environmental Studies (+German/French) - our main lecturer kept saying that the most important environmental factor, that would decide for all the others, is population growth. And that is now clear.


But where do you stop with your refusal to contribute- crêches, schools, vaccination programmes, social and health support, etc, etc.



I will say a big yes to fathers' maternity leave (as a mother and grand-mother whose husband practically didn't see his babies due to extreme working hours) - and a big NO for those silly planes.
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Old 21.09.2020, 16:37
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

I get the argument that society, or government or whoever, has an interest in their being plenty of kids born so as to keep the pension pyramid going and lots of advantages in general that can maybe not be put into monetary terms.

But how many parents are going to make their decison to have an additional kid dependent on two weeks leave for the dad? To me this seems like cynically going through the motions of trying to fix a problem. You want people to have more kids, you need to pour far bigger sums of money into it, and not offer one-off bonuses but things that make a difference throughout the childhood of the kid.

Either that, or stop pretending you care.
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Old 21.09.2020, 16:37
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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So fathers want 2 weeks PAID holiday after childbirth and parents want more money for kids if I understood correctly? As someone who decided not to have kids I just don't understand!!! If you want to have kids, why should others be paying for it
Don't agree with any of them, I would have voted NO.

(and yes, I do have 2 kids, but we managed in a foreign country with no support from extended family, so should the others.)

But then again, we pay for all sort of things we don't necessarily agree with. This would be among the least questionable things IMO.
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Old 21.09.2020, 16:42
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

Well, I voted against the planes as well. Even though San Marino, Monaco, Andorra and the Channel Islands all pose a serious threat ...
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Old 21.09.2020, 17:00
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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Not true, I am a signed up member. You are thinking about people who ask for reduction in world population while having 5 of their own kids. I am not one of them. I put my mouth where my money is.
You totally missed Phil_MCR comment. Suicide is a viable way of reducing population, so since you keep replying I guess it should be I have not put my mouth where my money is.

On the other hand. There are freeriders everywhere, the paternity leave is just one among many. Other freeriders are owners of electric cars, they don't the pay the 73 rappen per liter fuel tax that goes to road infrastructure.

If you're bored enough you can spot tax inefficiencies everywhere, but maybe it's more expensive to try to fix tax inefficiencies. If all taxpayers and authorities have to spend double the time doing their taxes to avoid freeriding, more money is lost compared to letting some people cash benefits without the precisely just contribution.

Finally, I'm not sure about the fiscal effect of having kids. Parents have much lower savings than childless people, which implies they consumed goods and services, and payed a lot of VAT. It would be very interesting to compare the VAT contribution of parents VS childless with money stored on the bank.

PS. at least there's not a tax on childlessness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_on_childlessness
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Old 21.09.2020, 17:01
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Re: I have to pay for your kids? :-O

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So fathers want 2 weeks PAID holiday after childbirth and parents want more money for kids if I understood correctly? As someone who decided not to have kids I just don't understand!!! If you want to have kids, why should others be paying for it
Do you also think that you should be exempted from paying anything towards education or child welfare? What about other services you don't actually use?

Allowing people to pick and choose which taxes they want to pay, and which they don't, would simply result in no tax being collected at all.

Why you should single out benefits for children I don't know - would you also remove disability allowances, as you're apparently able-bodied? Get rid of unemployment benefit if you've always had a job? Where would it end?
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