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Old 11.11.2020, 18:07
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Re: fact or fiction: children confiscated for unpaid health insurance debts

Many web sites and Youtube videos also tell the story of the Verdingkinder. First time I saw an email being forwarded with the story I thought it was one of those things people make up for chain mailing but apparently a lot of it is true and they have documentaries interviewing victims who are adults now. This doesn't prove the KVG rumour but it is one of the reasons I felt inclined to dig deeper.
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  #22  
Old 11.11.2020, 18:28
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Re: fact or fiction: children confiscated for unpaid health insurance debts

So you've found all these references to ancient history? Wow, good for you.

Does it still happen? I think the links you provided answer that question completely.

So why are you "asking" about it here?
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Old 11.11.2020, 18:40
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Re: fact or fiction: children confiscated for unpaid health insurance debts

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Many web sites and Youtube videos also tell the story of the Verdingkinder. First time I saw an email being forwarded with the story I thought it was one of those things people make up for chain mailing but apparently a lot of it is true and they have documentaries interviewing victims who are adults now. This doesn't prove the KVG rumour but it is one of the reasons I felt inclined to dig deeper.
The KVG, the law which made health insurance obligatory came into force 1996. Before that health insurance was purely optional. The dark ages of the Swiss Foster Care system with Verdingkinder was till 1981. Accordingly, a gap of 15 years.
https://www.kinderheime-schweiz.ch/d...intergrund.php

PS: There is financial aid if someone is unable to finance health insurance. Starting from premium reductions up to social aid which also covers other living cost such as housing and food. If someone still fails to get and pay for health insurance for their own children it can be assumed that there are a whole lot of more problems. Accordingly, the child and adult protection service (KESB) will be involved. A possible result might be that the children are put in foster care.

It is like asking if no air in the car tires could lead to confiscation of the car. It might, for example if there is no air because the car is burning and all the rubber is gone. Similar as in the above case with no health insurance for the kids, the problem of having no air in tire is miniscule to the overall problem and not root cause for actions.
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Old 11.11.2020, 20:15
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Re: fact or fiction: children confiscated for unpaid health insurance debts

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So you've found all these references to ancient history? Wow, good for you.

Does it still happen? I think the links you provided answer that question completely.

Nobody said it is still happening in the same form. The description I gave of a teenager in a Hostel, giving up 90% of their meager apprenticeship income to cover the Hostel service is probably as close as it gets but it is not the same thing.


Most of the Hostels like that are in the cities while Verdingkinder lived in remote places where they had no escape.


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So why are you "asking" about it here?

To give an example of something where some people saw the email going around and thought it was a hoax. There are many hoax emails that look very similar. It was some years before I came to realize it was true but I always remembered the first email I saw about it. It had been forwarded about 10 times, people adding all their friends on CC each time, I deleted it thinking it was just a hoax/spam.



When I started hearing this story about the Kanton taking children from people who get into KVG arrears, I felt like I needed to know for sure either way. If I believed it or if I wanted to believe it, I wouldn't waste my time asking.
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Old 11.11.2020, 20:36
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Re: fact or fiction: children confiscated for unpaid health insurance debts

Switzerland has dark chapters of:

- making money as agents of mercenaries hundreds of years ago
- taking children away from gypsy families and placing them in other homes
- taking children away from poor families and placing them with farming families
- hiding Nazi money
- secret bank accounts
- Swiss bank indiscretions


The Verdingkinder were indeed taken away from their families for various reasons and were often misused as cheap labour. Some endured malnutrition, physical and emotional abuse and consequently spent their adult lives living with the terror of their youth. Switzerland has acknowledged these crimes and has offered some compensation to those who survived. The compensation is a pittance and there is still some issues with how the money was handled.

OP: Your outrage is understandable but please know Switzerland has outlawed this practice many decades ago.
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Old 11.11.2020, 20:49
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Re: fact or fiction: children confiscated for unpaid health insurance debts

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I would expect that if you accept, you can only absorb any debt UP TO the value of the assets you inherited.
The general system is that if you accept the inheritance you accept assets and liabilities (if the liabilities exceed the assets, you inherit those in full). You do have the option of asking for a public inventory to be made. If you then accept the inheritance under public inventory you are only liable for the listed debts. If for some reason debts were not listed in the public inventory you are only liable to the extent that you are enriched by the inheritance.

In more detail: https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a590
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Old 11.11.2020, 20:55
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Re: fact or fiction: children confiscated for unpaid health insurance debts

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Switzerland has dark chapters of:

Every country has some skeletons in the closet. Trump's handling of Covid may have killed more people than September 11 many times over. That is far worse than Verdingkinder.


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OP: Your outrage is understandable but please know Switzerland has outlawed this practice many decades ago.

Conditional outrage: I never saw any evidence that the rumor is true or if it is very widespread. The outrage is packed away in the freezer but if evidence appears, I'll be sure to thaw it out quickly.
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Old 11.11.2020, 21:54
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Re: fact or fiction: children confiscated for unpaid health insurance debts

I can't really understand what the original post is supposed to be about and if the OP has simply made this up or is trolling or whatever...

But... there are a bunch of different things you can read if you want to know more about children who were taken away from their parents in Switzerland.

First of all, you can also read about the Verdingkinder on wikipedia in english.

There is also the story of Sergio Devecchi (I didn't find any sources in English) who was taken away from his mother (I believe that she became pregnant out of Wedlock) and forced into a home as a Verdingkind. As an adult, he ended up running an orphanage himself but he was deeply ashamed of his past and didn't tell anyone for years that he was also an orphan. He wrote a book about his experiences called Heimweh. Here is a fascinating interview from him (in German).

Then, there is the popular and heartbreaking book Die Schwarze Brüder or the Black Brothers (in English) about the young boys from Tessin who are basically sold by their parents (who are completely impoverished and have no choice) to work in brutal conditions as chimney sweeps in northern Italy.

If you haven't had enough stories of orphans in Switzerland, you can also watch the new 6 part SRF Series 'Frieden', a drama taking part in post world war II Switzerland including the stories of Jewish children who survived Nazi Germany and were taken in by Switzerland.

By the way, I am not sure if you remember her, but the famous 'Dr. Ruth' Westheimer was one of these children. She was born in Germany, but speaks Swiss German, which she learned at one of these orphanages. There are movies and videos telling her story. Here, you can listen to her be interviewed by Roger Schawinski.
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  #29  
Old 11.11.2020, 23:08
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Re: fact or fiction: children confiscated for unpaid health insurance debts

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Here[/URL], you can listen to her be interviewed by Roger Schawinski.
I actually met Roger back in 2008, and had a nice talk with him. His English is very good.

Tom
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Old 18.11.2020, 19:16
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Re: fact or fiction: children confiscated for unpaid health insurance debts

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I can't really understand what the original post is supposed to be about and if the OP has simply made this up or is trolling or whatever...

No, didn't make it up. Came up in a discussion on the train on the way home. My query was written in a neutral sense, it is not an accusation, it simply seeks to find out if any facts exist. As more than a week has passed without anybody confirming anything like this I assume it was either a misunderstanding or a hoax.


Pleasant reminder of the topic arrived in my letterbox, a leaflet about Swiss companies using child labor abroad but completely unrelated to the KVG. It seems a lot of Swiss find this repulsive either here or abroad. Will be curious to see how they vote in the referendum and whether it changes something.
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Old 19.11.2020, 01:25
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Re: fact or fiction: children confiscated for unpaid health insurance debts

Neil Sutz, Swiss-American dual citizen, brought his wife and kids here to escape Mormons in Arizona, maybe this is the case that triggered speculation. The Swiss appear to be questioning his wife's health status and the kids are in an orphanage. Not really clear if it is because of her health or custody demands from her extended family or money or all of the above. It smells fishy: one parent has a health problem, both parents are not trusted.

The guy obviously deserves a lot of credit for extracting his family from Arizona.

The names don't appear in any Swiss web sites, probably because of local privacy concerns.
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  #32  
Old 19.11.2020, 09:22
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Re: fact or fiction: children confiscated for unpaid health insurance debts

The Swiss history of indenturing poor children is not unique.

British ‘orphans’ were sent for ‘apprenticeships’ in Australia up until the mid/late 1970s. Many were abused the same way as Swiss poor (and fatherless) kids were. Many still had living parents, practically none had the chance to see them again.

The US, Australia and Canada all took native children away from their families for ‘boarding school education’.

I am sure there are many other examples from other countries, but as most countries don’t like to talk about evil things they did in the past, I only really know about English speaking countries’ atrocities (and the cultural revolution in China).

OP should have used the past tense, and compared to their own country.
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  #33  
Old 19.11.2020, 11:21
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Re: fact or fiction: children confiscated for unpaid health insurance debts

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Neil Sutz, Swiss-American dual citizen, brought his wife and kids here to escape Mormons in Arizona, maybe this is the case that triggered speculation. The Swiss appear to be questioning his wife's health status and the kids are in an orphanage. Not really clear if it is because of her health or custody demands from her extended family or money or all of the above. It smells fishy: one parent has a health problem, both parents are not trusted.
I read the article (why?) but honestly what a total useless piece stuffed with fluffy words. There is no more information in it than what you have written in just four (!) short sentences. That is laundry room gossip at best.
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Old 19.11.2020, 23:03
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Re: fact or fiction: children confiscated for unpaid health insurance debts

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That is laundry room gossip at best.

That is probably why he hopes to get a $200 million defamation pay-out. Good luck to him.



No doubt a lot of it is suppressed to protect the identity of the children. It is also important to know how often the state is using these powers and how high or low they are setting the threshold.


A lot of families here have a Rechtsschutz legal insurance that would give them some representation against the Kanton but maybe this man has come back to Switzerland not knowing how things work, having no insurance here and he has been unlucky.
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Old 20.11.2020, 00:56
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Re: fact or fiction: children confiscated for unpaid health insurance debts

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I read the article (why?) but honestly what a total useless piece stuffed with fluffy words. There is no more information in it than what you have written in just four (!) short sentences. That is laundry room gossip at best.
The psycho POS deserves this.

Tom
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Old 20.11.2020, 01:21
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Re: fact or fiction: children confiscated for unpaid health insurance debts

It definitely happens. Look - here is a film of the official Krankenkassekinderfänger yesterday.

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Old 20.11.2020, 11:24
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Re: fact or fiction: children confiscated for unpaid health insurance debts

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I've heard various stories about cantons confiscating children from parents who didn't pay their health insurance bills on time.


Is this a fact and can anybody provide references or links?


Is it simply an urban myth or in contemporary language, was it fake news?


Or is it somewhere in between, for example, did the Swiss try to enact such a law in a referendum that failed?
One confiscates things not people! Children can be taken from the parents in extreme cases where they dont provide the basic needs of the child or they are abusing the child. But not simply when the parents dont pay the health insurance
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Old 20.11.2020, 11:30
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Re: fact or fiction: children confiscated for unpaid health insurance debts

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A lot of families here have a Rechtsschutz legal insurance that would give them some representation against the Kanton but maybe this man has come back to Switzerland not knowing how things work, having no insurance here and he has been unlucky.
Or maybe he's just a danger to his children, and his wife is suffering from mental health problems and unable to look after them properly?

Every country in the world that has any sort of state welfare system has the duty to protect children, which includes protecting them from their own parents if necessary. Even the article on the nutjob website you quoted from makes it clear that the kids must have been viewed as in a risky situation so have been put into the care of the state until such time as the situation can be improved enough to let them back into the care of their parents.

There are enough cases around the world where the state has left vulnerable kids with their parents who've gone on to abuse them, even to kill them, that the principle of child protection doesn't need to be justified.

In any case, I hope you will now agree that your original question, fact or fiction" is clearly answered, as fiction is is. Bringing in other examples like this just confuses that question with completely unrelated issues.
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Old 20.11.2020, 22:37
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Re: fact or fiction: children confiscated for unpaid health insurance debts

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Or maybe he's just a danger to his children, and his wife is suffering from mental health problems and unable to look after them properly?

I feel uncomfortable with any speculation that the man is a bad parent, unless it has actually been alleged somewhere. But it looks more like he is a courageous parent he moved his whole family out of harm's way.


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Every country in the world that has any sort of state welfare system has the duty to protect children, which includes protecting them from their own parents if necessary. Even the article on the nutjob website you quoted from makes it clear that the kids must have been viewed as in a risky situation so have been put into the care of the state until such time as the situation can be improved enough to let them back into the care of their parents.

Definitely, in every country there is a system like this and they all overreact sometimes. In the UK they had the case where a small child confused "terrace house" with "terrorist house" and all hell broke loose.


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There are enough cases around the world where the state has left vulnerable kids with their parents who've gone on to abuse them, even to kill them, that the principle of child protection doesn't need to be justified.[/url]

It doesn't need to be justified but it does need to be monitored like anything else.



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In any case, I hope you will now agree that your original question, fact or fiction" is clearly answered, as fiction is is. Bringing in other examples like this just confuses that question with completely unrelated issues.

This example was speculation about the origins of the story, I've heard it a few times but never with proof or references. Quoting my own words with that link, "maybe this is the case that triggered speculation", that is all, no claim that it was an official policy.



I hope this family can be reunited some day.
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