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View Poll Results: Covid 19: Will you get the vaccination?
Yes, definitely 141 59.00%
Not sure. Let's wait and see 33 13.81%
No way. I don't need it 15 6.28%
What vaccine? 1 0.42%
Probably - but not straight away 38 15.90%
Only if they make me 11 4.60%
Voters: 239. You may not vote on this poll

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  #501  
Old 27.12.2020, 20:38
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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I mean this with all sincerity, the level of ignorance you've displayed in your post is off the charts.

I would implore anybody reading this to seek independent healthcare advice and to make a carefully considered decision on any prophylactic measures that they may or may not wish to take.

Specifically regarding vaccines, it is helpful to consult the Fact Sheets. As an example, below is a list of the possible symptoms of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine taken from the Fact Sheet which you should also note is an unapproved vaccine that has received authorisation for emergency use only.

• injection site pain
• tiredness
• headache
• muscle pain
• chills
• joint pain
• fever
• injection site swelling
• injection site redness
• nausea
• feeling unwell
• swollen lymph nodes (lymphadenopathy)

In addition there is a remote chance of an allergic reaction resulting in:

• Difficulty breathing
• Swelling of your face and throat
• A fast heartbeat
• A bad rash all over your body
• Dizziness and weakness

And here is the ingredient list for those that may like to consider the the individual components:

mRNA, lipids ((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate), 2 [(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3- phosphocholine, and cholesterol), potassium chloride, monobasic potassium phosphate, sodium chloride, dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate, and sucrose.

The Fact Sheet is available from:

https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download
In Switzerland, I believe the approval is not an emergency authorization, but rather a regular approval.

At any rate, I am a high risk person due to age and comorbidities. After reviewing the information available over the past few weeks, I’ll take my chances with the vaccine....when it is available to me.
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  #502  
Old 27.12.2020, 20:48
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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...
Please play the ball, not the player. There is no need for personal insults.
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  #503  
Old 27.12.2020, 21:02
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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In Switzerland, I believe the approval is not an emergency authorization, but rather a regular approval.

At any rate, I am a high risk person due to age and comorbidities. After reviewing the information available over the past few weeks, I’ll take my chances with the vaccine....when it is available to me.
In Switzerland it is a regular approval and not an emergency one.

That fact sheet really doesn’t differ much from any other vaccine so I’ll take my chance too. I have reviewed all the data available and spoken to my GP about it and I’m happy to go ahead.
I’ll report back after I’ve had it on Tuesday.
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  #504  
Old 28.12.2020, 03:19
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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I mean this with all sincerity, the level of ignorance you've displayed in your post is off the charts.

I would implore anybody reading this to seek independent healthcare advice and to make a carefully considered decision on any prophylactic measures that they may or may not wish to take.

Specifically regarding vaccines, it is helpful to consult the Fact Sheets. As an example, below is a list of the possible symptoms of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine taken from the Fact Sheet which you should also note is an unapproved vaccine that has received authorisation for emergency use only.

• injection site pain
• tiredness
• headache
• muscle pain
• chills
• joint pain
• fever
• injection site swelling
• injection site redness
• nausea
• feeling unwell
• swollen lymph nodes (lymphadenopathy)

In addition there is a remote chance of an allergic reaction resulting in:

• Difficulty breathing
• Swelling of your face and throat
• A fast heartbeat
• A bad rash all over your body
• Dizziness and weakness

And here is the ingredient list for those that may like to consider the the individual components:

mRNA, lipids ((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate), 2 [(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3- phosphocholine, and cholesterol), potassium chloride, monobasic potassium phosphate, sodium chloride, dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate, and sucrose.

The Fact Sheet is available from:

https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download
Doesn't that vaccine sound terrifying! Those evil pharmaceutical companies are obviously trying to kill us all! Look at this list of adverse events. Just reading all these awful side effects is enough to give you a headache*:

Hepatic
  • Increased aspartate aminotransferase
  • Increased hepatic transaminases
  • Liver failure

Gastrointestinal
  • Nausea (up to 34%)
  • Vomiting (up to 15%)
  • Abdominal pain
  • Diarrhea
  • Constipation
  • Dyspepsia
  • Enlarged abdomen
  • Dry mouth

Hypersensitivity
  • Anaphylaxis
  • Hypersensitivity reactions

Hematologic
  • Anemia
  • Postoperative hemorrhage
  • Thrombocytopenia
  • Leucopenia
  • Neutropenia

Dermatologic
  • Rash
  • Pruritus
  • Serious skin reactions such as acute generalized exanthematous pustulosis, Stevens-Johnson syndrome, and toxic epidermal necrolysis
  • Pemphigoid reaction
  • Pustular rash
  • Lyell syndrome

Respiratory
  • Dyspnea
  • Abnormal breath sounds
  • Pulmonary edema
  • Hypoxia
  • Pleural effusion
  • Stridor
  • Wheezing
  • Coughing

Cardiovascular
  • Peripheral edema
  • Hypertension
  • Hypotension
  • Tachycardia
  • Chest pain

Metabolic
  • Hypokalemia
  • Hyperglycemia

Nervous system
  • Headache
  • Dizziness
  • Dystonia

Musculoskeletal
  • Muscle spasms
  • Trismus

Psychiatric
  • Insomnia
  • Anxiety

Genitourinary
  • Oliguria

Local
  • Infusion site pain
  • Injection site reactions

Ocular
  • Periorbital edema

Other
  • Pyrexia
  • Fatigue
  • Malaise


*Just make sure you don't take a Panadol. This is the list of possible adverse events caused by paracetamol (acetaminophen), also known as Panadol, Tylenol, and around 600 other trade names.

Every drug causes side effects (not "symptoms", by the way). For most commonly used drugs, those side effects are usually fairly inconsequential (relative to the medical problem they are treating) or very rare. Pharmaceutical manufacturers have to report every adverse event and side effect reported for each drug they produce—hence the outlandish list for paracetamol. Frankly, I really like the look of the BioNTech/Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine side effects compared to a) the side effects of paracetamol and b) the symptoms of COVID-19.

Oh, and trying to scare people with the list of ingredients of the vaccine is quite laughable, too. Sweeten up, pop a little (2R,3R,4S,5S,6R)-2-[(2S,3S,4S,5R)-3,4-dihydroxy-2,5-bis(hydroxymethyl)oxolan-2-yl]oxy-6-(hydroxymethyl)oxane-3,4,5-triol in your coffee! (You probably guessed that that's sugar.)

The post I just quoted is really condescending, without any ground for the superior attitude. I just don't get where anti-vaxxers are coming from.
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  #505  
Old 28.12.2020, 03:27
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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I mean this with all sincerity, the level of ignorance you've displayed in your post is off the charts.

I would implore anybody reading this to seek independent healthcare advice and to make a carefully considered decision on any prophylactic measures that they may or may not wish to take.

Specifically regarding vaccines, it is helpful to consult the Fact Sheets. As an example, below is a list of the possible symptoms of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine taken from the Fact Sheet which you should also note is an unapproved vaccine that has received authorisation for emergency use only.

• injection site pain
• tiredness
• headache
• muscle pain
• chills
• joint pain
• fever
• injection site swelling
• injection site redness
• nausea
• feeling unwell
• swollen lymph nodes (lymphadenopathy)

In addition there is a remote chance of an allergic reaction resulting in:

• Difficulty breathing
• Swelling of your face and throat
• A fast heartbeat
• A bad rash all over your body
• Dizziness and weakness

And here is the ingredient list for those that may like to consider the the individual components:

mRNA, lipids ((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate), 2 [(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3- phosphocholine, and cholesterol), potassium chloride, monobasic potassium phosphate, sodium chloride, dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate, and sucrose.

The Fact Sheet is available from:

https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download
I mean this with all sincerity, the level of hyperbole you've displayed in your post is off the charts. It's like you have never seen a warning list of potential symptoms for a vaccine or other medications before. Such lists of possible side effects are nothing new and I am guessing you just never bothered to look at them until now when a vaccine has you all fired up.

Like I said, medical and scientific ignorance is rife and takes many forms; this includes pretending to know about the risks of individual ingredients that a vaccine is composed of. People who regurgitate things they read on social media or hear from others and then engage in pseudo-scientific discussions, issuing warnings left right and centre without the knowledge or facts to back up their claims, are a serious barrier to fighting the pandemic and a stark reminder of what the medical community are up against.

There are entire teams of many thousands of medical experts worldwide working on creating, testing and approving these vaccines. They are all sharing information and working with government and medical regulatory bodies who all have families and who all care about the effect they will have on people. My view is that it would be better if people trusted them instead of engaging in conspiracy theory BS based on their own lack of knowledge and mostly irrational fears.

Last edited by Chuff; 28.12.2020 at 07:30.
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  #506  
Old 28.12.2020, 08:38
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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In Switzerland, I believe the approval is not an emergency authorization, but rather a regular approval.

At any rate, I am a high risk person due to age and comorbidities. After reviewing the information available over the past few weeks, I’ll take my chances with the vaccine....when it is available to me.
Indeed, the vaccine is approved in Switzerland. There is no legal option for emergency authorisation of vaccines.
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  #507  
Old 28.12.2020, 08:49
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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Indeed, the vaccine is approved in Switzerland. There is no legal option for emergency authorisation of vaccines.
Ok. Well we are in Switzerland, not the US or UK. So why do you say the vaccine is unapproved in your prior post?
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  #508  
Old 28.12.2020, 09:16
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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Doesn't that vaccine sound terrifying! Those evil pharmaceutical companies are obviously trying to kill us all! Look at this list of adverse events. Just reading all these awful side effects is enough to give you a headache*:

Hepatic
  • Increased aspartate aminotransferase
  • Increased hepatic transaminases
  • Liver failure

Gastrointestinal
  • Nausea (up to 34%)
  • Vomiting (up to 15%)
  • Abdominal pain
  • Diarrhea
  • Constipation
  • Dyspepsia
  • Enlarged abdomen
  • Dry mouth

Hypersensitivity
  • Anaphylaxis
  • Hypersensitivity reactions

Hematologic
  • Anemia
  • Postoperative hemorrhage
  • Thrombocytopenia
  • Leucopenia
  • Neutropenia

Dermatologic
  • Rash
  • Pruritus
  • Serious skin reactions such as acute generalized exanthematous pustulosis, Stevens-Johnson syndrome, and toxic epidermal necrolysis
  • Pemphigoid reaction
  • Pustular rash
  • Lyell syndrome

Respiratory
  • Dyspnea
  • Abnormal breath sounds
  • Pulmonary edema
  • Hypoxia
  • Pleural effusion
  • Stridor
  • Wheezing
  • Coughing

Cardiovascular
  • Peripheral edema
  • Hypertension
  • Hypotension
  • Tachycardia
  • Chest pain

Metabolic
  • Hypokalemia
  • Hyperglycemia

Nervous system
  • Headache
  • Dizziness
  • Dystonia

Musculoskeletal
  • Muscle spasms
  • Trismus

Psychiatric
  • Insomnia
  • Anxiety

Genitourinary
  • Oliguria

Local
  • Infusion site pain
  • Injection site reactions

Ocular
  • Periorbital edema

Other
  • Pyrexia
  • Fatigue
  • Malaise


*Just make sure you don't take a Panadol. This is the list of possible adverse events caused by paracetamol (acetaminophen), also known as Panadol, Tylenol, and around 600 other trade names.

Every drug causes side effects (not "symptoms", by the way). For most commonly used drugs, those side effects are usually fairly inconsequential (relative to the medical problem they are treating) or very rare. Pharmaceutical manufacturers have to report every adverse event and side effect reported for each drug they produce—hence the outlandish list for paracetamol. Frankly, I really like the look of the BioNTech/Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine side effects compared to a) the side effects of paracetamol and b) the symptoms of COVID-19.

Oh, and trying to scare people with the list of ingredients of the vaccine is quite laughable, too. Sweeten up, pop a little (2R,3R,4S,5S,6R)-2-[(2S,3S,4S,5R)-3,4-dihydroxy-2,5-bis(hydroxymethyl)oxolan-2-yl]oxy-6-(hydroxymethyl)oxane-3,4,5-triol in your coffee! (You probably guessed that that's sugar.)

The post I just quoted is really condescending, without any ground for the superior attitude. I just don't get where anti-vaxxers are coming from.
My post is not condescending. I made a statement that an earlier poster's comments were founded on ignorance. This is a fact. I then recommended that people reading this forum seek independent healthcare advice and listed some points from a Fact Sheet.

NB: I didn't offer any opinion at all on what was listed from the Fact Sheet.

Your post however, is condescending. You are claiming that I have tried to scare people with the ingredient list. That is an inference and it is incorrect. You don't call me an anti-vaxxer explicitly but some people might interpret it that way and typically this is used in a derogatory fashion.

Anti-vaxxer is really quite an unhelpful term. The reason is that there are many different types of vaccines and people may be accepting of some and more cautious of others.

It looks like you're a moderator on this forum. That's a bit troubling as your post certainly couldn't be described as moderate.

Last edited by Polymath; 28.12.2020 at 10:09.
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  #509  
Old 28.12.2020, 09:33
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I mean this with all sincerity, the level of hyperbole you've displayed in your post is off the charts. It's like you have never seen a warning list of potential symptoms for a vaccine or other medications before. Such lists of possible side effects are nothing new and I am guessing you just never bothered to look at them until now when a vaccine has you all fired up.

Like I said, medical and scientific ignorance is rife and takes many forms; this includes pretending to know about the risks of individual ingredients that a vaccine is composed of. People who regurgitate things they read on social media or hear from others and then engage in pseudo-scientific discussions, issuing warnings left right and centre without the knowledge or facts to back up their claims, are a serious barrier to fighting the pandemic and a stark reminder of what the medical community are up against.

There are entire teams of many thousands of medical experts worldwide working on creating, testing and approving these vaccines. They are all sharing information and working with government and medical regulatory bodies who all have families and who all care about the effect they will have on people. My view is that it would be better if people trusted them instead of engaging in conspiracy theory BS based on their own lack of knowledge and mostly irrational fears.
Your use of the word 'hyperbole' is incorrect. All of my comments were to be taken literally.

Indeed, medical and scientific ignorance is rife and you have demonstrated that well.

To borrow from Noam Chomsky, consider that truisms are often derided by respectable opinion as 'conspiracy theories', 'Marxist', or some other epithet. Yet they are readily confirmed when subjected to inquiry.

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Ok. Well we are in Switzerland, not the US or UK. So why do you say the vaccine is unapproved in your prior post?
It was to get people to think a bit more. A vaccine is unapproved in one jurisdiction but approved in another. Maybe this is an important consideration for early adopters.

Last edited by roegner; 28.12.2020 at 09:58. Reason: Merging consecutive posts
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  #510  
Old 28.12.2020, 09:52
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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It was to get people to think a bit more. A vaccine is unapproved in one jurisdiction but approved in another. Maybe this is an important consideration for early adopters.
Or maybe it’s a difference in policy. As you yourself noted, Switzerland has no EUA.

I don’t believe this was a winning strategy, resulting in a reaction to tone rather than content. But, anyway.........
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  #511  
Old 28.12.2020, 09:54
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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It looks like your a moderator on this forum. That's a bit troubling as your post certainly couldn't be described as moderate.

As someone who seems to take pride in precise language, it’s you are a moderator, or you’re a moderator.
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  #512  
Old 28.12.2020, 10:13
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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As someone who seems to take pride in precise language, it’s you are a moderator, or you’re a moderator.
I corrected it when scrolling to your post
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  #513  
Old 28.12.2020, 10:27
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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I corrected it when scrolling to your post
Indeed.........
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  #514  
Old 28.12.2020, 10:32
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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Or maybe it’s a difference in policy. As you yourself noted, Switzerland has no EUA.

I don’t believe this was a winning strategy, resulting in a reaction to tone rather than content. But, anyway.........
Swiss medic asked for additional documentation and clarification before approving the vaccine, they erred on the side of caution and didn’t rush into approving it. I chose to trust their judgement.

The tone of the post left an awful lot to be desired, there are far better ways of encouraging people to think about things.
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  #515  
Old 28.12.2020, 11:08
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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Your use of the word 'hyperbole' is incorrect. All of my comments were to be taken literally.

Indeed, medical and scientific ignorance is rife and you have demonstrated that well.

To borrow from Noam Chomsky, consider that truisms are often derided by respectable opinion as 'conspiracy theories', 'Marxist', or some other epithet. Yet they are readily confirmed when subjected to inquiry.



It was to get people to think a bit more. A vaccine is unapproved in one jurisdiction but approved in another. Maybe this is an important consideration for early adopters.
It still got approved faster by Swissmedic than was previously aired on media. Maybe because of the 2 new, more infectious strains, maybe they wanted a slow approach knowing that it will make it easier to be accepted by general public. As I posted before, I do trust the Swiss approach, tbh.

Not Chomsky, no.
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Old 28.12.2020, 11:26
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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It was to get people to think a bit more.
An out and out lie in other words.
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  #517  
Old 28.12.2020, 13:09
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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To borrow from Noam Chomsky, consider that truisms are often derided by respectable opinion as 'conspiracy theories', 'Marxist', or some other epithet. Yet they are readily confirmed when subjected to inquiry.
I am all for dialogue since the last thing we need is further polarisation and entrenched views. There are two arguments I can see as to why you wouldn't take the vaccine now.
  • This is a global conspiracy and people seem to be jumping in like lemmings.
  • This technology is too new and 1 year is too soon to approve a vaccine that should take 10 years to develop
I can't answer the first since I'm not a huge conspiracy theorist. However the second is a fair point and as with everything you take a balanced risk/benefit decision. The longer you wait the more data we will have, and the more reassured you can be.

However it is worth noting that COVID has been unlike everything we have experienced before. The amount of crowd-think in the scientific community has been immense, with the free sharing of data and the fact that we are all in this together. With so many hands the work becomes easier and quicker, and with so much external scrutiny there is very little that can be hidden. We have amateur molecular biologists combing over the open source data on forums just like this, unaffiliated and unburdened by confidentiality. If they saw anything to worry about then I am sure it would be all over social media.

The proof of the pudding is ultimately whether you would give it to your own family. And based on everything I have seen, I would.
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  #518  
Old 28.12.2020, 14:23
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

Four family members have had the vaccine, I think the Pfizer version, all front line hospital staff working with COVID patients. Three are in their 20s and 30s, one is mid 60s.

No adverse reactions. Nada. All feel great.

The vaccine has made all the difference. After months of putting their own lives on the line day in and day out to save others, finally they can at least walk back into the COVID wards with a bit less worry.

---

I've done my non-scientist best to read the literature, as well as have spoken at length with family and colleagues who are scientists qualified to evaluate the studies. I see nothing that would give me pause. Yes, there are some risks - but dear doG im Himmel, those risks pale in comparison to the utter devastation that COVID has wrought among my family, friends, and community.

I just want this over. I want normal back. And the only way that will happen is with the vaccine.

And so I eagerly await my turn. The moment I am able to get the vaccine I'll be there with bells on. Looks like that will not be until summer or later - but count me in as soon as possible.
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Old 28.12.2020, 15:42
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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....We will also soon have almost a year of long term safety data from the early clinical trial patients...
How will we possibly have a year of long term safety data any time soon? The full vaccine development and approval has taken just 8 months. Long term safety data is collected over a longer period of time, and nobody knows what it will look like. This is why the governments have granted companies like Pfizer and Moderna immunity from liability if something unintentionally goes wrong with their vaccines.
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Old 28.12.2020, 16:41
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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How will we possibly have a year of long term safety data any time soon? The full vaccine development and approval has taken just 8 months. Long term safety data is collected over a longer period of time, and nobody knows what it will look like. This is why the governments have granted companies like Pfizer and Moderna immunity from liability if something unintentionally goes wrong with their vaccines.
I think the vaccines were formulated quickly. some of the first jabs were given in late March early April.
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