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View Poll Results: Covid 19: Will you get the vaccination?
Yes, definitely 114 55.34%
Not sure. Let's wait and see 31 15.05%
No way. I don't need it 13 6.31%
What vaccine? 1 0.49%
Probably - but not straight away 37 17.96%
Only if they make me 10 4.85%
Voters: 206. You may not vote on this poll

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  #521  
Old 28.12.2020, 17:53
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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How will we possibly have a year of long term safety data any time soon? The full vaccine development and approval has taken just 8 months. Long term safety data is collected over a longer period of time, and nobody knows what it will look like. This is why the governments have granted companies like Pfizer and Moderna immunity from liability if something unintentionally goes wrong with their vaccines.
This, absolutely. And it doesn't motivate large portion of the public to go ahead and co-operate, either.
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  #522  
Old 28.12.2020, 17:57
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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I think the vaccines were formulated quickly. some of the first jabs were given in late March early April.
I thought COVID only was supposed to have arrived in the EU / USA in March, although we know it was around at least 4 months before that. Seems unlikely a US company could have given a jab as early as March.
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  #523  
Old 28.12.2020, 18:01
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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How will we possibly have a year of long term safety data any time soon? The full vaccine development and approval has taken just 8 months. Long term safety data is collected over a longer period of time, and nobody knows what it will look like. This is why the governments have granted companies like Pfizer and Moderna immunity from liability if something unintentionally goes wrong with their vaccines.
8 months/12 months, we're splitting hairs since there is no formal definition of long term I'm aware of (any clinical safety colleagues please chime in). If we are talking about a genetic therapy that enters the nucleus then I would want to see many more years but this doesn't, its cleared from the body in a matter of days. The therapeutic use of mRNA goes back 3 decades and the first human vaccine (against rabies) was given in 2011 with data still being collected so that's a fairly good surrogate albeit not perfect.

For me the biggest argument in favour is the massive statistical power of the data. With millions of subjects being dosed daily we will very quickly see those low frequency side effects and even those which would usually take years to develop could occur in months in some patients due to the heterogenous nature of human physiology and pharmacology.

That Pfizer and Moderna were able to gain immunity says very little, their legal team wouldn't be doing their jobs if they didn't manage to reduce their liability as far as possible.
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  #524  
Old 28.12.2020, 18:14
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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I thought COVID only was supposed to have arrived in the EU / USA in March, although we know it was around at least 4 months before that. Seems unlikely a US company could have given a jab as early as March.
As unlikely as it might seem to you it was actually the case.

https://investors.modernatx.com/news...-phase-1-study
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  #525  
Old 28.12.2020, 18:41
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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8 months/12 months, we're splitting hairs since there is no formal definition of long term I'm aware of (any clinical safety colleagues please chime in). If we are talking about a genetic therapy that enters the nucleus then I would want to see many more years but this doesn't, its cleared from the body in a matter of days. The therapeutic use of mRNA goes back 3 decades and the first human vaccine (against rabies) was given in 2011 with data still being collected so that's a fairly good surrogate albeit not perfect.

For me the biggest argument in favour is the massive statistical power of the data. With millions of subjects being dosed daily we will very quickly see those low frequency side effects and even those which would usually take years to develop could occur in months in some patients due to the heterogenous nature of human physiology and pharmacology.

That Pfizer and Moderna were able to gain immunity says very little, their legal team wouldn't be doing their jobs if they didn't manage to reduce their liability as far as possible.
Yes of course, it doesn’t matter if the trials have started 8 months or 12 months ago — the overall development of a vaccine takes about 10-15 years and a very large safety database, we don’t have these but the vaccine is already approved. Having millions of subjects dosed daily in the “real word” setting will not produce the same level of data as in controlled clinical trials. It will take years before we know how safe this vaccine is — unless a disaster strikes and serious side effects appear sooner (I really hope not!)
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  #526  
Old 28.12.2020, 19:56
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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Not Chomsky, no.
I only mentioned Chomsky as I believe it's important to give credit to the author. The quote is almost verbatim and whilst it was originally used in the context of US hegemony (if I recall correctly) it seemed pertinent to include it here.

It's over a decade since I read Chomsky and while I wouldn't agree with all of his views I recognise that opposing views can contribute to fruitful discourse.
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  #527  
Old 28.12.2020, 20:06
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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Yes of course, it doesn’t matter if the trials have started 8 months or 12 months ago — the overall development of a vaccine takes about 10-15 years and a very large safety database, we don’t have these but the vaccine is already approved. Having millions of subjects dosed daily in the “real word” setting will not produce the same level of data as in controlled clinical trials. It will take years before we know how safe this vaccine is — unless a disaster strikes and serious side effects appear sooner (I really hope not!)
I think this shows that you can make progress in a short amount of time given a crisis and resources. The vaccine technology has been around for 30 years, as Castro said. The vaccine trials do have really large statistical power (the ability to demonstrate the effectiveness of the vaccine, when there is an effect). If you can collect a massive, real world data base of vaccine recipients, I imagine it would be
Very useful.
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  #528  
Old 28.12.2020, 20:18
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

Jab me now.... I don't even care what's in it..... I can't take this shit anymore! Anything to end it!
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  #529  
Old 28.12.2020, 20:39
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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I only mentioned Chomsky as I believe it's important to give credit to the author. The quote is almost verbatim and whilst it was originally used in the context of US hegemony (if I recall correctly) it seemed pertinent to include it here.

It's over a decade since I read Chomsky and while I wouldn't agree with all of his views I recognise that opposing views can contribute to fruitful discourse.
That is true.

It is good to create space for different ideas, totally agree. Diversity of thoughts is important. Not everyone can take it.
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  #530  
Old 28.12.2020, 21:48
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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Jab me now.... I don't even care what's in it..... I can't take this shit anymore! Anything to end it!
What IM said.

The plane is going down fast. You are offered a parachute. What do you do? Debate if it may not be fully tested and wonder if it’s safe to jump.

OK, stay on board...
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  #531  
Old 28.12.2020, 22:10
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

Another thing to consider here is that vaccines are created very quickly all the time - the one for flu is new twice each year.

Previous flu vaccines for potential pandemic forms (e.g. H1N1) also went through a rapid approval process, but were never needed.

So the process to do this stuff quickly is there, it's just that normally the drive is not - the extra cost and to some degree risk isn't worth it for most vaccines where the disease will still be there at probably much the same level in five or ten years...
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  #532  
Old 28.12.2020, 22:18
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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My post is not condescending. I made a statement that an earlier poster's comments were founded on ignorance. This is a fact. I then recommended that people reading this forum seek independent healthcare advice and listed some points from a Fact Sheet.

NB: I didn't offer any opinion at all on what was listed from the Fact Sheet.

Your post however, is condescending. You are claiming that I have tried to scare people with the ingredient list. That is an inference and it is incorrect. You don't call me an anti-vaxxer explicitly but some people might interpret it that way and typically this is used in a derogatory fashion.

Anti-vaxxer is really quite an unhelpful term. The reason is that there are many different types of vaccines and people may be accepting of some and more cautious of others.

It looks like you're a moderator on this forum. That's a bit troubling as your post certainly couldn't be described as moderate.
Informing somebody that they are ignorant—and claiming this as "a fact" (really? How much do you actually know about other people here?)—then producing a list of side effects (which you mislabelled "symptoms") copied from the internet as some sort of proof of your superiority, coupled with a list of chemical names of ingredients in the hope that would confound the lesser mortals reading your post... condescension, check.

If you found my post immoderate, you will truly be shocked by what lies ahead on EF. Perhaps you should take a nap to summon up your strength.
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  #533  
Old 29.12.2020, 10:46
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

There has been an appeal made to the federal courts regarding the approval of the Pfizer vaccine by Swissmedic. The organisation DU is concerned about nanoparticles in the vaccine affecting the DNA of the recipient.
They have also lodged a complaint with the ministry for the interior regarding the way COVID-19 pandemic has been handled by the OFSP.
https://www.arcinfo.ch/dossiers/coro...pfizer-1024758

Article in french.

Last edited by Belgianmum; 29.12.2020 at 11:23.
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  #534  
Old 29.12.2020, 11:14
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

What is the organization DU?
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  #535  
Old 29.12.2020, 11:28
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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What is the organization DU?
I’ve no idea, I’ve never heard of them before.
I guess they’re a Swiss German organisation. The call themselves ‘Die Unabhängigen‘ which translates as ‘The independents’.
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Old 29.12.2020, 11:34
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

Here‘s the translation via DeepL

JUSTICE The association DU - die Unabhängigen has filed an appeal with the Federal Court against the licensing of Pfizer and BioNTech's vaccine. It is concerned about nanoparticles that could influence the DNA of vaccinated people.
The association DU - die Unabhängigen (You - The Independents) has filed an appeal against the approval of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine by Swissmedic. On the same day, 23 December, it lodged a complaint with the Federal Department of Home Affairs against the treatment of Covid-19 by the FOPH.

The association, which was founded in 2019 and is centrally located and does not want to be a party, is particularly concerned about possible nanoparticles that could influence the DNA of vaccinated people, she said Tuesday in a statement. What scientific studies are being conducted to rule out such a risk, Du - die Unabhängigen asks.

Also read: Vaccine against entry ticket? The idea divides the organizers of major events

The movement claims to be present in the cantons of Berne and Aargau, as well as in Liechtenstein. It advocates an independent and transparent policy for people, animals and nature. It has decided to take legal action because it considers Swissmedic's response to its letter to be unsatisfactory.
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Old 29.12.2020, 11:38
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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Informing somebody that they are ignorant—and claiming this as "a fact" (really? How much do you actually know about other people here?)—then producing a list of side effects (which you mislabelled "symptoms") copied from the internet as some sort of proof of your superiority, coupled with a list of chemical names of ingredients in the hope that would confound the lesser mortals reading your post... condescension, check.

If you found my post immoderate, you will truly be shocked by what lies ahead on EF. Perhaps you should take a nap to summon up your strength.
Please don't misinterpret my words again. If you carefully read what I posted you would realise that I did not call anybody ignorant.

Side effects are unwanted symptoms. I shall reiterate once more that I offered no opinion on the facts that were posted from the fact sheet. Everything you have stated in this regard is spurious conjecture.

I was not shocked by your comment. The chance of me being shocked by anything on this forum is extremely remote. Rather, just mildly disappointed. As a moderator, my understanding is you should be an ambassador for the forum and provide a balanced view etc. Your reply to me, a newcomer, contained veiled insults and misrepresentations of statements that I made. This is not a great reflection on the forum and could potentially put off guest readers from joining. As to your final sentence, it really doesn't warrant a reply except to say that it is further evidence of the above.
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  #538  
Old 29.12.2020, 11:42
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

For general interest

The organization DU is here: http://www.dieunabhaengigen.ch/

I‘ve looked through this site briefly, seems to be related to the Reformed Church in BE-SO-JU. Have not looked at the site from FL.
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Old 29.12.2020, 11:49
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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There has been an appeal made to the federal courts regarding the approval of the Pfizer vaccine by Swissmedic. The organisation DU is concerned about nanoparticles in the vaccine affecting the DNA of the recipient.
They have also lodged a complaint with the ministry for the interior regarding the way COVID-19 pandemic has been handled by the OFSP.
https://www.arcinfo.ch/dossiers/coro...pfizer-1024758

Article in french.
Thanks for sharing. I tried searching for more info but there looks to be only scant details available at present.
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  #540  
Old 29.12.2020, 11:50
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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Here‘s the translation via DeepL

JUSTICE The association DU - die Unabhängigen has filed an appeal with the Federal Court against the licensing of Pfizer and BioNTech's vaccine. It is concerned about nanoparticles that could influence the DNA of vaccinated people.
The association DU - die Unabhängigen (You - The Independents) has filed an appeal against the approval of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine by Swissmedic. On the same day, 23 December, it lodged a complaint with the Federal Department of Home Affairs against the treatment of Covid-19 by the FOPH.

The association, which was founded in 2019 and is centrally located and does not want to be a party, is particularly concerned about possible nanoparticles that could influence the DNA of vaccinated people, she said Tuesday in a statement. What scientific studies are being conducted to rule out such a risk, Du - die Unabhängigen asks.

Also read: Vaccine against entry ticket? The idea divides the organizers of major events

The movement claims to be present in the cantons of Berne and Aargau, as well as in Liechtenstein. It advocates an independent and transparent policy for people, animals and nature. It has decided to take legal action because it considers Swissmedic's response to its letter to be unsatisfactory.
Thanks, I didn’t have time to translate the whole article when I posted so just gave a summary of the important parts.
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