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View Poll Results: Covid 19: Will you get the vaccination?
Yes, definitely 164 60.74%
Not sure. Let's wait and see 36 13.33%
No way. I don't need it 17 6.30%
What vaccine? 1 0.37%
Probably - but not straight away 39 14.44%
Only if they make me 13 4.81%
Voters: 270. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1121  
Old 20.08.2021, 16:36
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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I was just imagining that and it made me think of these German market criers.
It was quite literally like that though!
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  #1122  
Old 20.08.2021, 16:38
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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-The immobile, existing in our society without support
-Those who don't know how to use gadgets at all, or only know how to send text messages on them
-Those who can't get time off work to go to a testing centre
-The illiterate, existing in our society without support
-The mentally unwell, existing in our society without support
-Those without internet access, existing in our society without support
-The homeless (we've had minor bumps of success with getting access for some in a few cantons, but by-and-large have been unsuccessful thus far)
-Sans Papiers (we've had minor bumps of success with getting access for some in a few cantons, but by-and-large have been unsuccessful thus far)
-Working poor without health insurance
-Those who are afraid they will receive a bill for any test and injection, that they cannot afford, and don't have the linguistic ability, nor support, to be able to check if that's true
-Those without the linguistic ability, who are dependent upon vitamin b for official info, and are being misinformed


I could go on.
Most of the examples look more like excuses than serious situations.
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  #1123  
Old 20.08.2021, 16:40
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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Most of the examples look more like excuses than serious situations.

It's hard to hate people close-up. Commit your time and resources to volunteering, and learn about our vulnerable citizens, before you take aim at them on the internet.
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  #1124  
Old 20.08.2021, 16:54
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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-The immobile, existing in our society without support
-Those who don't know how to use gadgets at all, or only know how to send text messages on them
-Those who can't get time off work to go to a testing centre
-The illiterate, existing in our society without support
-The mentally unwell, existing in our society without support
-Those without internet access, existing in our society without support
-The homeless (we've had minor bumps of success with getting access for some in a few cantons, but by-and-large have been unsuccessful thus far)
-Sans Papiers (we've had minor bumps of success with getting access for some in a few cantons, but by-and-large have been unsuccessful thus far)
-Working poor without health insurance
-Those who are afraid they will receive a bill for any test and injection, that they cannot afford, and don't have the linguistic ability, nor support, to be able to check if that's true
-Those without the linguistic ability, who are dependent upon vitamin b for official info, and are being misinformed


I could go on.
The immobile do get support, otherwise they'd be dead without it within a few days. If somehow the food arrives, the vaccine can arrive too. Gadgets and internet are irrelevant since it's possible to just show up in a vaccination center and get it. Working poor without health insurance? I expected the employers of Au Pairs be a bit more considerate, it's not the case. I'd really like to know the employer who doesn't give a day off to get the vaccine. Getting badly sick will be even more lost days from a worker.

Being afraid is not an access barrier, it's a barrier on the mind, doesn't exist in the physical world. About linguistic ability.......there are communities in every town speaking the same foreign language and the local Swiss language. Unless the individual is the kind of person who finds a way to fight with everyone of their community, there's always a support network.

And...yes, mental illness. What's the alternative? Hunt them and force them to get the vaccine? That would be nice, the neighbor in the flat above would be taken to the right institution, but this is not happening.

The Sans-Papiers case is under discussion. It was politically impossible to give them access to the vaccine while the legal residents were waiting. Today that basically all the willing legal residents had the vaccine, it's possible to open the door for them. Hope it's done soon.

I guess the Sans-Papiers case is representative of the whole situation. It was politically impossible and logistically idiotic to take on the most difficult cases when there was a waiting list of millions willing and able to take the vaccine. Today, that the low-hanging fruit (willing and able people) has been collected, time to take on the difficult cases. So, was there a better logistical approach to vaccination in CH?
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  #1125  
Old 20.08.2021, 17:12
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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-The immobile, existing in our society without support
-Those who don't know how to use gadgets at all, or only know how to send text messages on them
-Those who can't get time off work to go to a testing centre
-The illiterate, existing in our society without support
-The mentally unwell, existing in our society without support
-Those without internet access, existing in our society without support
-The homeless (we've had minor bumps of success with getting access for some in a few cantons, but by-and-large have been unsuccessful thus far)
-Sans Papiers (we've had minor bumps of success with getting access for some in a few cantons, but by-and-large have been unsuccessful thus far)
-Working poor without health insurance
-Those who are afraid they will receive a bill for any test and injection, that they cannot afford, and don't have the linguistic ability, nor support, to be able to check if that's true
-Those without the linguistic ability, who are dependent upon vitamin b for official info, and are being misinformed


I could go on.
Do you have any evidence that any significant numbers in these groups are being prevented systemically? Even somebody with zero internet literacy and zero social contacts and unable to fill in a form or pick up a phone can hobble along to their doctor or the nearest hospital. I don't think the folks there would refuse to help.

The mentally unwell etc typically have a ward who takes care of these issues.

Of course there are always individuals who fall through all the cracks, but do you have any evidence that they are in significant numbers?

Last edited by amogles; 20.08.2021 at 17:57.
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  #1126  
Old 20.08.2021, 17:23
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

Does anyone know why we have issued 5,374,985 vaccine certificates (that's vaccinated rather than tested or recovered) - https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/overview, yet apparently - https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/overview, have only 4,347,143 fully vaccinated people?
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  #1127  
Old 20.08.2021, 17:25
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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Does anyone know why we have issued 5,374,985 vaccine certificates (that's vaccinated rather than tested or recovered) - https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/overview, yet according to our world in data - https://www.google.com/search?q=vacc...obile&ie=UTF-8, have only 4,347,143 fully vaccinated people?
I assume fax machines need some sleep, too, sometimes.
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  #1128  
Old 20.08.2021, 17:34
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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Does anyone know why we have issued 5,374,985 vaccine certificates (that's vaccinated rather than tested or recovered) - https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/overview, yet apparently - https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/overview, have only 4,347,143 fully vaccinated people?
I guess there's some mistake in the overview (https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/overview), the number of vaccinated people is 5'374'985.

On the vaccination detailed info (https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/vaccination/persons) the number of fully vaccinated people is 4'370'262 which is close to the much talked number of 50% of vaccinated population.
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  #1129  
Old 20.08.2021, 17:55
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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Do you have any evidence that any significant numbers in these groups are being prevented systemically? Even somebody with zero internet literacy and zero social contacts and unable to fill in a form or pick up a phone can hobble along to their doctor or the nearest hospital. I don't think the folks there would refuse to help.

The mentally unwell etc typically have a ward who takes care of these issues.

I'm involved in the voluntary sector, and these are the some of issues we are focused on pertaining to COVID. These topics are also pretty standard access barrier issues across-the-board (hence it being infuriating to see so many people overlooked, because it's highly predictable). The view about "what people should do" is indicative of every failed rollout of everything, sadly - too far removed from the reality, and not focused on solving the problem (removing barriers to access, so people have a choice that others get to enjoy).



By all means, offer your time and resources to volunteering, like the poster above taking shots at the needy, and see and hear the stories and experiences for yourself close-up, deal with the Canton, try to get support on behalf of the needy, try to provide useful help to someone, try to get people to care about the world beyond the end of their nose.



This trivialising of serious issues we're lucky to not currently experience, and the almost mocking tone towards the needy here (note not 1 poster conceded their false claim that everyone has access), both allows continued inaction from official bodies, and also ordinary citizens who could be helping, but don't (though will gladly pontificate, despite not knowing there's a bright, burning fire on their horizon).
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  #1130  
Old 20.08.2021, 18:15
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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Does anyone know why we have issued 5,374,985 vaccine certificates (that's vaccinated rather than tested or recovered) - https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/overview, yet apparently - https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/overview, have only 4,347,143 fully vaccinated people?
Maybe replacements for lost certificates, as well as replacements for certificates with typos etc are included.

As well as people who may have died or left the country since vaccination.
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  #1131  
Old 20.08.2021, 18:26
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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By all means, offer your time and resources to volunteering, like the poster above taking shots at the needy, and see and hear the stories and experiences for yourself close-up, deal with the Canton, try to get support on behalf of the needy, try to provide useful help to someone, try to get people to care about the world beyond the end of their nose.
Nobody is taking shots at the needy. We are questioning how significant they are statistically.

If you work with particular groups of needy you tend to meet many of them and this maybe distorts your perception of how many there are overall. If every second person you meets is in a particular group, you can come home thinking they make up half of the population. In reality it could well be that they are a tiny minority.

This is much the same mechanism that makes policemen think everybody is a criminal, or speech therapists think that 80% of the population has a speech defect.

Furthermore, people who are disadvantaged often develop a sixth sense when it comes to finding ways to do things. I have a relative who is a bit like that. She has lots of problems both with her health and mentally but whenever I check out on her I'm always surprised to discover that somehow she has got things nailed somehow. Maybe not in the way I would have done it or advised her. But she gets things fixed all the same.
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  #1132  
Old 20.08.2021, 18:45
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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Nobody is taking shots at the needy. We are questioning how significant they are statistically.

If you work with particular groups of needy you tend to meet many of them and this maybe distorts your perception of how many there are overall. If every second person you meets is in a particular group, you can come home thinking they make up half of the population. In reality it could well be that they are a tiny minority.

This is much the same mechanism that makes policemen think everybody is a criminal, or speech therapists think that 80% of the population has a speech defect.

Furthermore, people who are disadvantaged often develop a sixth sense when it comes to finding ways to do things. I have a relative who is a bit like that. She has lots of problems both with her health and mentally but whenever I check out on her I'm always surprised to discover that somehow she has got things nailed somehow. Maybe not in the way I would have done it or advised her. But she gets things fixed all the same.

Human beings are always significant. Human lives are always significant. It's sad to read the sentence about needy people and their significance. yet no expressed will to get involved to find out.


Any claim that "everyone has access" is factually incorrect. Are people repeating it out of disdain for the needy, as those citizens don't matter? Are they repeating it because they have access, so don't care to check whether everyone else does? Are they repeating it, because to acknowledge reality might require some difficult conversations and introspection?



The access issues are not intellectual problems, requiring extensive posts on the internet. All of that just distracts. In volunteeing, we're short of hands and people doing helpful stuff (lots turn up expeting the Rocky welcome, and take time, resources and energy away from the needy). All these access problems were entirely predictable, and, therefore preventable.


In the places I support, we're not just doing practical stuff to help the needy with tasks - we're advocating officially, too, attending any possible meeting, trying to raise awareness in communities, trying to educate the government and groups that the needy need help from, trying to fundraise, and so on. We're exposed to the problems from many angles, and across many organisations, both in the voluntary sector and beyond.


Again, please do volunteer your time and resources to help, as you'd learn so much (and keep learning - 1 of the aspects I am most grateful for).
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  #1133  
Old 20.08.2021, 19:32
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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-The immobile, existing in our society without support
-Those who don't know how to use gadgets at all, or only know how to send text messages on them
-Those who can't get time off work to go to a testing centre
-The illiterate, existing in our society without support
-The mentally unwell, existing in our society without support
-Those without internet access, existing in our society without support
-The homeless (we've had minor bumps of success with getting access for some in a few cantons, but by-and-large have been unsuccessful thus far)
-Sans Papiers (we've had minor bumps of success with getting access for some in a few cantons, but by-and-large have been unsuccessful thus far)
-Working poor without health insurance
-Those who are afraid they will receive a bill for any test and injection, that they cannot afford, and don't have the linguistic ability, nor support, to be able to check if that's true
-Those without the linguistic ability, who are dependent upon vitamin b for official info, and are being misinformed

I could go on.
I'm sure their may be real problems with those without papers and homeless (and as ever mental illness is very challenging to deal with). The rest are pretty much terrible excuses that are easily overcome, in particular by contacting the pharmacy who can help the internots, the illiterate etc.

Since you've asked for volunteers if you need somebody to push a disabled person in a wheelchair to the vaccination centre anywhere in Basel or between Basel and Frick I will happily do a few. Then again my German is rubbish so I'm not sure I'd be best suited but the offer still stands.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 20.08.2021 at 19:44.
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  #1134  
Old 20.08.2021, 22:12
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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-The immobile, existing in our society without support
-Those who don't know how to use gadgets at all, or only know how to send text messages on them
-Those who can't get time off work to go to a testing centre
-The illiterate, existing in our society without support
-The mentally unwell, existing in our society without support
-Those without internet access, existing in our society without support
-The homeless (we've had minor bumps of success with getting access for some in a few cantons, but by-and-large have been unsuccessful thus far)
-Sans Papiers (we've had minor bumps of success with getting access for some in a few cantons, but by-and-large have been unsuccessful thus far)
-Working poor without health insurance
-Those who are afraid they will receive a bill for any test and injection, that they cannot afford, and don't have the linguistic ability, nor support, to be able to check if that's true
-Those without the linguistic ability, who are dependent upon vitamin b for official info, and are being misinformed

I could go on.
Many of the points you've raised though would be applicable for the same people going to fetch a liter of milk, fill out a tax return or open a bank account. This isn't a vaccine access issue.
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  #1135  
Old 21.08.2021, 01:12
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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Does anyone know why we have issued 5,374,985 vaccine certificates (that's vaccinated rather than tested or recovered) - https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/overview, yet apparently - https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/overview, have only 4,347,143 fully vaccinated people?
See the top right of the respective segment, and its foldout info.

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[..] The number of fully vaccinated people can diverge from the number of COVID certificates issued for vaccinated people. The reasons are as follows: a person may have been vaccinated abroad and then applies for a Swiss COVID certificate; a person may not have provided full information when registering and then applies for a corrected certificate or a certificate may have been re-⁠issued because the original was lost. [..]
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  #1136  
Old 21.08.2021, 13:06
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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Many of the points you've raised though would be applicable for the same people going to fetch a liter of milk, fill out a tax return or open a bank account. This isn't a vaccine access issue.

It is a vaccine access issue. You're demonstrating another predictable pattern of thinking that does another great disservice to the needy. Much like you, much like me, the needy are 3 dimensional people. None of their problems, limitations, nor their triumphs, nor their good or bad days, just like you and me, exist in isolation from anything else.


There's a will we encounter often, when people don't care about the needy, to see them as 1 dimensional, and deserving of the bare minimum, when the wealthy and affluent have been served.

Nothing exists in isolation:

-A company focused on saving money will likely get rid of people, buy cheaper ingredients for the canteen from cheaper suppliers, stop providing 3 different types of pen, and throw money at the fancy Xmas trip for the c suite and board members

-A person with 6 weeks to live, having just discovered a brain tumour, may be abusive to their neighbours and shop staff
-A person going through a bitter divorce, may also be hoarding anything and everything in their new home, and talk someone down from a bridge on their nightly walk

Just like everyone else, the needy live complex lives, and nothing about them exists in isolation from anything else. Just like you and me.

Black-and-white thinking doesn't serve us well. The thinking you're demonstrating is how people in need can get passed form pillar to post when they try to get help, because noone really wants to help, so they contort themselves as much as possible to find ways to absolve themselves of responsibility.

It's also how the needy can end up stopping asking for help, because it's the height of tedium, and they can lose hope, because it's so abudantly clear the person they're asking for help holds them in disdain.
-----------------
Could you acknowledge that your claim was wrong, that the mantra was false and harmful, that everyone doesn't have access to even the choice to receive the COVID injection? Can we agree on that?

Could you stop parroting that false mantra, because it causes harm to all the efforts underway to try to get access to the choice for those who don't have it?

Could you offer time and resources over years to volunteer, to learn about the stories and experiences of the needy, to be trained and skilled, because you're pontificating on subjects you don't yet have enough awareness about (and this is harmful when any of us do it, and I'm still learning many years in), and it'd be better to learn before you decide what you espouse?
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Old 21.08.2021, 13:17
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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Since you've asked for volunteers if you need somebody to push a disabled person in a wheelchair to the vaccination centre anywhere in Basel or between Basel and Frick I will happily do a few. Then again my German is rubbish so I'm not sure I'd be best suited but the offer still stands.

I've asked for people to volunteer - that means, of their own volition, to commit years to becoming skilled and trained in providing support to the needy, to spend years learning about them and their experiences, to devote time and resources to helping them.


In no way do I advocate drive-by volunteering, nor tourist volunteering I mentioned above the problem with those arriving with the Rocky mentality). Any such pantomime takes time and energy away from the needy, and we are already only able to support a tiny fraction of those we'd like to reach. Much like in an emergency, your linguistic limitations could enganger others - that's the harm drive-by volunteering can do, too.


There's a lady I've known through volunteering for close to 6 years now, and she has only just started to show me the official letters she's receiving. Trust can take years to build, and commitment over the long-term matters in volunteering, both for relationships with fellow volunteers, and also the needy.



The needy need to feel safe around us, and believe we'll be there to support from 1 day to the next, when they're ready. No 2 needy people are the same. They are 3 dimensional, just like the wealthy and affluent. They live complex lives, just like you and me.
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  #1138  
Old 22.08.2021, 07:37
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

Will you get the jab if its not compulsory? And if it is compulsory?
Yes.

And who will pay-the Health Insurance?
My employer pays it.

Its 90% successfull so what happens to the other 10%?
It's all about possibilities.
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Old 22.08.2021, 08:48
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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ts 90% successfull so what happens to the other 10%?
It's all about possibilities.
Impossible to make any such sweeping claim genuinely- you haven't qualified your 90% figure either with a source or an explanation.
There's an absence of long-term data, studies and monitoring. We have no clue what successful would even mean at this stage, again, as it's early days.

Extremists in either direction are doing us a disservice, by misleading with bold claims. Especially in light of so many people not even having the choice, as the Swiss have decided to handle it.

It's fine for someone to decide to receive the injection, and fine for another person to want to wait and see if they feel more comfortable after a while longer.
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Old 22.08.2021, 10:18
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Re: Covid Vaccine: Will you get it?

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