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  #21  
Old 13.04.2021, 13:47
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Re: Mother leaving the marriage - What are my rights as a father?

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Your future with an ex-wife and two young children is going to involve paying out a significant portion of your salary for many years to keep them living well until the kids are old enough, while you work yourself to the bone. If you have an average salary this is likely going to make you miserable, but if you are a very high earner then you may still be comfortable.
Not a big difference to married life, actually
Sorry, couldn't resist
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  #22  
Old 13.04.2021, 13:54
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Re: Mother leaving the marriage - What are my rights as a father?

Thanks everyone for the advice so far, I really appreciate it.

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I'd also advise finding a therapist (for yourself, and when it starts, another one for kids as well) so that you can sort things out emotionally. No friend can substitute a good therapist, since friends are not objective.
Thank you blacky. I completely agree. I personally see a therapist once a week and have been doing so for 2 years now and can clearly see the benefits. Unfortunately my wife only sees the cost associated to them and not the benefit. Our issues are not unmanageable, but in my point of view it needs two people to put in the effort, and I think I am the only one making an effort so far. Even if she didn't decide to leave, I think I probably would have at some point.

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A very good lawyer of the standing of Kellerhals Carrard, Walder Wyss, Bar and Karrer etc will cost you in the region of CHF 400 - 500 an hour but worth every penny.
@LuganoPirate, do you have any experience with such lawyers? Being in the service/consulting area myself, I am always a bit wary of big lawyers/service providers taking on small private client cases. I think you end up paying for the name but not the service because usually some junior does the job. Could be wrong though
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  #23  
Old 13.04.2021, 14:59
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Re: Mother leaving the marriage - What are my rights as a father?

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@LuganoPirate, do you have any experience with such lawyers? Being in the service/consulting area myself, I am always a bit wary of big lawyers/service providers taking on small private client cases. I think you end up paying for the name but not the service because usually some junior does the job. Could be wrong though
Will gladly defer your question to LuganoPirate, who seems to have personal experience regarding Big Gun corporate lawyers in family matters.
Personally, I would suggest getting a recommendation for a local law firm with experience in divorce cases. Your representative should show basic human empathy but not add bullshit to your expectations. Their hopefully better grasp of mental arithmetic vis--vis the CP is a big plus in court while you have to be prepared to make compromises to avoid things deteriorating beyond repair.
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  #24  
Old 13.04.2021, 16:41
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Re: Mother leaving the marriage - What are my rights as a father?

Another thing I would say (sadly with experience) is that people with psychological issues often have a strong "flight or fight" urge.

My ex-wife basically ran away with absolutely no warning *whatsoever*, including any indication she was unhappy. She made clear that I could avoid paying her any money by dealing with the shit she left behind (all her stuff still in my house, taking on responsibility for the mortgage).

If I were you I'd be making very clear that the cost for her

- not looking after the kids
- not paying the rent

Is that she doesn't ask for cash from you maintenance wise. You could likewise make clear you don't expect cash from her for looking after the kids. Sounds like that could be a mutually acceptable position.

You need to offer something reasonable in your discussions with her and not just fight, but at the same time don't be a pushover.

It sounds like she just needs to be out of your life - this is probably the best way.

Once you and her have an informal agreement - you can then go a lawyer and get it written up (I didn't but had no kids at the time, and not enough cash to get overly worried about).
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  #25  
Old 13.04.2021, 16:57
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Re: Mother leaving the marriage - What are my rights as a father?

The best piece of advice I ever received when I separated from my childs father was:

"It did not work for the 2 of you together but for your childs sake make it work apart"

Meaning spare the child from being involved in any part of the discussions. If you have something to arrange with the mother do it by email or when the kids are not around or if it is really bad through the lawyers. Always take a deep breath and time out before replying or acting hastily and regretting later. Don't talk bad to or about the mother when the kids are around. This is your issue not there's. If they have questions answer them as simply and neutrally as possible. Let them know it is not their fault.

These are all hard when the other one is pushing your buttons, but rise above for the children.
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  #26  
Old 13.04.2021, 18:50
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Re: Mother leaving the marriage - What are my rights as a father?

In case you haven't already read them all, here are the pages from the Swiss government website www.ch.ch about divorce:
https://www.ch.ch/en/search/?search_...&query=divorce


The Swiss law distinguishes between "parental authority" (= who has the legal say over what the children will do) and "custody" (= where the children reside). Joint "parental authority" is the norm, nowadays, and sole parental authority granted only in exceptional circumstances if it is deemed in the best interests of the children. Even joint "custody" can happen, i.e. the children living with each parent for part of the week, although this is not yet the norm.
https://www.englishforum.ch/3188605-post15.html

See, in particular, the part about parental authority and custody, here
https://www.ch.ch/en/divorce-parental-authority/
How is custody organised?
The divorce court settles the rights and obligations of parents, in particular concerning parental responsibility and the child’s residence, contact or the sharing of parental duties, and the child support contribution. Normally, the parents are given joint parental responsibility.

Sole custody is only awarded to the mother or the father in specific cases. The child’s welfare is the main priority. If the child’s interests require specific protection, the court awards custody to only one parent.

If there is a significant change in circumstances, a reassessment can be made of who should be assigned parental responsibility. If the parents agree, the child protection authority is responsible for this assessment, and if the parent cannot agree, the court decides.

Last edited by doropfiz; 13.04.2021 at 21:19.
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  #27  
Old 13.04.2021, 19:22
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Re: Mother leaving the marriage - What are my rights as a father?

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The best piece of advice I ever received when I separated from my childs father was:

"It did not work for the 2 of you together but for your childs sake make it work apart"

Meaning spare the child from being involved in any part of the discussions. If you have something to arrange with the mother do it by email or when the kids are not around or if it is really bad through the lawyers. Always take a deep breath and time out before replying or acting hastily and regretting later. Don't talk bad to or about the mother when the kids are around. This is your issue not there's. If they have questions answer them as simply and neutrally as possible. Let them know it is not their fault.

These are all hard when the other one is pushing your buttons, but rise above for the children.
Really sound advice. I have been blown away by a divorced family member over the years for her kindness toward her ex-husband and for her willingness to include him even in holidays when his second wife is busy with her own family so that he can be with his daughters. All this despite him being really the perpetrator of the divorce (and of some other nasty stuff in the marriage). I hope it all works out well for you, but regardless, keep your relationship with your children healthy and avoid making their mom the bad guy, even if she is.
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  #28  
Old 13.04.2021, 21:03
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Re: Mother leaving the marriage - What are my rights as a father?

Divorce
Divorce can be a mutually agreed arrangement, at any time.
The way to do it peacefully is to discuss as many of the terms and conditions with each other, alone or with help from a mediator.
Switzerland knows no legal concept of blame in the breakdown of a marriage, to when getting divorced, it does not matter to the Courts whether either or both partners did or did not have an affair, or do their fair share of housework, or pay their fair contribution of help or money into the joint marriage.
These things are not relevant when dissolving the marriage.

Separation
Separation, too, can be mutually agreed upon.
If one person wants the divorce and the other does not, then the couple splits up, and are then, de facto, separated.
The person wanting the divorce has to watch the days drift by until, finally, the two years are over, and they can take the other spouse, who is opposed to the divorce, to court.

Negotiation, mediation, and waiting two years
Ideally, both parties can negotiate their own arrangements, peacefully, and set these down in writing, and then get these proposals checked, each person by their own lawyer.

Alternatively, they could get marriage counselling to see whether they can salvage the relationship, but also to discuss how to organise splitting things up and how to deal with the children.

In the absence of both parties wanting counselling, they could go to a mediator, especially with those topics about which they cannot easily reach agreement. There, the mediator can help to ensure that each party is properly hearing what the other is saying, or can facilitate negotiations about who gets what, and who wants to have which arrangements, always with the aim of everyone being able to live on with the minimum of strife, ideally in peace. Such an arrangement can be temporary, but typically, the divorce takes over the same terms as the separation, so it's worth making the effort to get it right. And it is worth having it checked by a lawyer, after all these discussions.

Sometimes, before those two years are over, the spouse who has been left, and who was initially opposed to getting divorced, comes around to facing the idea that the marriage really is over.

Sometimes, on the other hand, being apart for a while gives each partner a chance to breathe, again, and to re-think everything so that in some cases mediation is then possible and even reconciliation.

Registering and the rental contract
If one party moves out, then they set up home somewhere else, renting their own place. They have to register themselves with their new municipality.
The spouse who stays behind, has to register the fact that the partner has left with their municipality.

Both spouses should write to the current landlord explaining that one is staying (with the children, if that's the case) and one is leaving, and asking for the rental contract please be changed so that it is no longer in both names but will be in the name of only the one who is staying.

This is very important, because there are rental laws about a "family home": if the landlord ever wishes to give notice, it must be sent to both spouses, regardless of whether only one or both initially signed the lease. Likewise, if a tenant wishes to give notice, the signatures of both spouses are necessary. Therefore, to get things clear, so that the remaining spouse can be treated as a single entity, the proper procedure is for both to sign that the landlord can transfer the contract into the single name of the person remaining as a tenant. In this case, the spouse who is leaving must return all the keys to the premises. The spouse who is staying can then stay in or cancel the contract, alone.
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  #29  
Old 13.04.2021, 21:06
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Re: Mother leaving the marriage - What are my rights as a father?

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Before talking to a lawyer, if I were the OP I would prepare ALL of the details of my family situation including details of the finances/assets involved. Better to go to a lawyer with all of the information they need to be up and running quickly with no wasted time.
This, absolutely.
For a list of the kinds of documents which might be relevant, see this thread about a different set of circumstances but with tips for keeping the lawyer's fees as low as possible.
https://www.englishforum.ch/housing-...t-anymore.html
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  #30  
Old 13.04.2021, 21:23
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Re: Mother leaving the marriage - What are my rights as a father?

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If she leaves (without the children), what are my rights as a father regarding her access/decision making etc. to the children in this two year period? ....

I would love to have sole custody. I also think it would be better for the children based on her behavior (not physically violent, more psychological), ...
According to Swiss law, all the decisions should be taken according to what is in the child's best interests.

Each child has a right to an open and easy contact to both its parents.
Each parent has a duty to represent his/her child's rights.
It follows, therefore, that each parent has a duty to enable the child to have open and easy contact with the other parent.

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Really sound advice. I have been blown away by a divorced family member over the years for her kindness toward her ex-husband and for her willingness to include him even in holidays when his second wife is busy with her own family so that he can be with his daughters. All this despite him being really the perpetrator of the divorce (and of some other nasty stuff in the marriage). I hope it all works out well for you, but regardless, keep your relationship with your children healthy and avoid making their mom the bad guy, even if she is.
This is an excellent example of caring about the children's best interests!

Here's a thread with a range of different opinions about access to the children, and the kind of effort it could need, and suggestions of how it can be made to work peaceably.
https://www.englishforum.ch/family-m...dy-matter.html
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  #31  
Old 13.04.2021, 21:27
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Re: Mother leaving the marriage - What are my rights as a father?

Maintenance payments

As a general rule, after a divorce each adult is expected to pay their own way in life. However, this principle is not applied absolutely, because of the time needed to care for small children.

Maintenance should be paid by the parent with whom the children do not live, to the parent with whom they live, but this, too, depends on their earnings.

Here's a broad outline:
https://www.ch.ch/en/divorce-and-mai...contributions/
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  #32  
Old 13.04.2021, 21:27
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Re: Mother leaving the marriage - What are my rights as a father?

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If you want your wife to really go bat crap crazy and screw you for all you are worth, without any hope of rational agreements... then sure, try and take her kids away from her. The moment you try and do this you had better be damn sure that you will get them and that you have good reason to ask for it, because otherwise you will draw a big target on your back and make life even more difficult for yourself. I think anyone with even a passing knowledge of psychology knows how protective a mother can get of their children, so triggering that level of survival instinct may not be wise.

It really sounds like for whatever reasons she does not love you any more and is not happy being married to you, so your best hope is likely to be as reasonable as humanly possible, do not allow things to get overly bitter and secure the best deal you can for future financial support and access to the kids.

Your future with an ex-wife and two young children is going to involve paying out a significant portion of your salary for many years to keep them living well until the kids are old enough, while you work yourself to the bone. If you have an average salary this is likely going to make you miserable, but if you are a very high earner then you may still be comfortable.

Good luck and remember that the tone you set at the beginning of this process will likely affect how it proceeds. Going in heavy-handed is likely not in your interests, as in the eyes of the law she holds most of the cards.
There is no way you are not the wife
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  #33  
Old 13.04.2021, 21:29
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Re: Mother leaving the marriage - What are my rights as a father?

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There is no way you are not the wife
What does this mean, please?
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  #34  
Old 13.04.2021, 22:20
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Re: Mother leaving the marriage - What are my rights as a father?

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What does this mean, please?

Well if you read Chuff's post below towards OP, it sounds exactly like the wife would write. It's a mix of:
  • 2 pounds of unreasonable anger
  • 1.5 pounds of pure pessimism
  • 1 table spoon of fear mongering
  • and a touch of self projection

me thinks Miss Chuffy is entangled in her own web of marital quagmire

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If you want your wife to really go bat crap crazy and screw you for all you are worth, without any hope of rational agreements... then sure, try and take her kids away from her. The moment you try and do this you had better be damn sure that you will get them and that you have good reason to ask for it, because otherwise you will draw a big target on your back and make life even more difficult for yourself. I think anyone with even a passing knowledge of psychology knows how protective a mother can get of their children, so triggering that level of survival instinct may not be wise.

It really sounds like for whatever reasons she does not love you any more and is not happy being married to you, so your best hope is likely to be as reasonable as humanly possible, do not allow things to get overly bitter and secure the best deal you can for future financial support and access to the kids.

Your future with an ex-wife and two young children is going to involve paying out a significant portion of your salary for many years to keep them living well until the kids are old enough, while you work yourself to the bone. If you have an average salary this is likely going to make you miserable, but if you are a very high earner then you may still be comfortable.

Good luck and remember that the tone you set at the beginning of this process will likely affect how it proceeds. Going in heavy-handed is likely not in your interests, as in the eyes of the law she holds most of the cards.
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  #35  
Old 14.04.2021, 01:15
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Re: Mother leaving the marriage - What are my rights as a father?

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me thinks Miss Chuffy is entangled in her own web of marital quagmire
Oh, that's what you meant. That interpretation never crossed my mind.
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  #36  
Old 14.04.2021, 06:06
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Re: Mother leaving the marriage - What are my rights as a father?

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Well if you read Chuff's post below towards OP, it sounds exactly like the wife would write. It's a mix of:
  • 2 pounds of unreasonable anger
  • 1.5 pounds of pure pessimism
  • 1 table spoon of fear mongering
  • and a touch of self projection

me thinks Miss Chuffy is entangled in her own web of marital quagmire
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  #37  
Old 14.04.2021, 09:06
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Re: Mother leaving the marriage - What are my rights as a father?

A family member who has been divorced twice said, when his second wife kicked him out "she does not realise yet that she cannot become un-married".


Meaning, his spouse wanted to try to wipe him out of the equation - but with two kids between them, and his first divorce experience, he knew that whatever happened, the divorced relationship is nothing like being unmarried....



Regardless of separation, living arrangements, who the kids live with.... you are in this together for the long-haul. Whether one parent is active or inactive, they exist and are a dimension to every decision that is being made...



Regardless of blame, choice or effort... you have two kids together and all decisions need to be made according to the best interests of those children, and negotiating through each phase of life and adapting as best you can.


It sounds like you do need to really 'listen' to what your wife wants...even if it's not what you want.... because that's going to form the basis of a very tough negotiation that has already begun and may never end...
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  #38  
Old 14.04.2021, 09:13
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Re: Mother leaving the marriage - What are my rights as a father?

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A family member who has been divorced twice said, when his second wife kicked him out "she does not realise yet that she cannot become un-married".


Meaning, his spouse wanted to try to wipe him out of the equation - but with two kids between them, and his first divorce experience, he knew that whatever happened, the divorced relationship is nothing like being unmarried....
...
Perhaps she wanted to be unmarried again with a substantial child support and alimony?

Seriously now, I don't get why some people would like to deprive their children of one of their parents. Assuming they once married for love.....Whatever happens in the marriage keep it between the two of you, don't poison each other's relationship with their own children.
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