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  #21  
Old 03.10.2021, 20:47
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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No not every woman is the same. In this example the woman appears to be of of the described type of spending the money on themselves otherwise the poster would not be asking for help. On this kind of situation how can we help him ?
Tell him to complain to the authorities. There is no other option.

Tom
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  #22  
Old 03.10.2021, 20:48
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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No not every woman is the same. In this example the woman appears to be of of the described type of spending the money on themselves otherwise the poster would not be asking for help. On this kind of situation how can we help him ?
Please try reading all the posts and informing yourself. Very happy to read any informed comments (either from this thread or your own personal experience) afterwards!
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Old 03.10.2021, 20:56
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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No not every woman is the same. In this example the woman appears to be of of the described type of spending the money on themselves otherwise the poster would not be asking for help. On this kind of situation how can we help him ?
I believe other posters answered?
It will be the judge who decides.

Remember one fundamental point….. society always tries to make sure that nobody is dependent on the state.
Society will force the individual to be responsible and carry the financial burden, not because it cares, but as to avoid precarity and thus welfare.
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  #24  
Old 03.10.2021, 21:16
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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Hi Gurus, as stated in the OP, in your opinion what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income? I got a calculation done by the "Amt für Jugend und Berufsberatung" office and it adds up to 26% of the net income, which is a lot in my opinion. They also have a super complicated non-intuitive method to come up with those figures. The method basically ignores completely all expenses incurred by the father.

I'm very happy to see the money well spent in the well being and education of the child but not overpaying to finance the lavish lifestyle of the mother. That's the main trade off. Separately the more they shrink the father's disposable income the less opportunity the father has to do things with the child which may explain why a lot of separated fathers don't do a lot with the children (they were depleted of resources).



Also if the father takes the child for holidays 3 weeks in a given month, why should he be forced to pay a full child support bill that month? it is IMO nonsense.
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Please try reading all the posts and informing yourself. Very happy to read any informed comments (either from this thread or your own personal experience) afterwards!
Perhaps read them yourself. The poster is very happy to see money spent on his child but does not want the ex partner to spend the money meant for the child on themselves and raises a valid point that if he has the child on holiday he still has to pay child support even though he bears the cost during that period.

So now that your more informed about the position perhaps you have a more helpful response.
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  #25  
Old 03.10.2021, 21:18
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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From my own bitter experience I can tell you this is not always the case. I paid all I was obliged to and a whole lot more. My ex tried every trick in the book and she screwed me well, most of which my daughter never saw.

And I never saw my daughter again…
I‘m so sorry to read that AbFab. Had good friends here a few years ago when my own daughter was younger, I’d known him since years - from the UK originally, and she was from the US. He doted on both his daughter and his wife so much.

He was a very good-looking, charismatic but really lovely bloke earning a very good salary (he had been my boss for a few years), and she was the same in female form, but earning in or near the millions as a partner at Ernst and Young (EY).

He had a fling however, and she - together with her parents additional wealth - pulled every dirty trick in the book to divorce him. I honestly don‘t remember the legal jurisdiction of the divorce, but she hired every lawyer to make quite absurd claims left, right and center about him, including those verging on pedophilia - because he‘d posted loving (fully clothed) pics of his daughter on Facebook.

He called me everyday to tell me, almost crying, the latest trick for months. Or we met-up with our daughters.

He was a really lovely person, and the process really destroyed him.

Luckily in Switzerland, divorce grounds are not necessary in deciding the outcome of a divorce. And that‘s good so.

It‘s decided on completely pragmatic terms, in the fair interests of ALL parties - mostly the children. It is assumed that the divorced parents will be responsible for their own individual incomes in the future, but that any children will still be responsibly provided for.

No more, no less.
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  #26  
Old 03.10.2021, 21:24
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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I believe other posters answered?
It will be the judge who decides.

Remember one fundamental point….. society always tries to make sure that nobody is dependent on the state.
Society will force the individual to be responsible and carry the financial burden, not because it cares, but as to avoid precarity and thus welfare.
Alas, they are not very good about this here, i.e. my wife's daughter does NOT get the legally awarded amounts for her son, far from it in fact! So OP has nothing to fear, unfortunately, her can be a deadbeat dad no problem!

Tom
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Old 03.10.2021, 22:07
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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Perhaps read them yourself. The poster is very happy to see money spent on his child but does not want the ex partner to spend the money meant for the child on themselves and raises a valid point that if he has the child on holiday he still has to pay child support even though he bears the cost during that period.

So now that your more informed about the position perhaps you have a more helpful response.
I had to separate from my Swiss ex-husband around 23 years ago, when my daughter had just turned three, and he suddenly became physically abusive (to me) and fraudulently stole not only my life savings (including a nice nest-egg inheritance), but also stole from his company whilst in the role of Financial Controller - no one knows where that money went.

He was (is still) a lovely man, and wonderful father otherwise, who has over the years allowed himself to be treated for, his shortly after this episode, diagnosis of bipolar disorder.

Believe me, it was not an easy time raising my daughter as a single Mom from the age of three, having been out of work (in IT that is a lifetime) to raise her for the first three years of her life. With no support network and no money. And also believe me, that childcare was not available at that time as most Swiss women still believed in not working when being a Mom.

I sorted out my exes huge financial and legal liabilities through negotiation, got myself a job while needing at least 2.5 hours a day to collect my daughter from childcare on my way to and from work in the beginning, got us a nice place to live (horrendously over-priced as course as I did not speak Swiss German), and you cannot imagine how hard - or often how wonderful - these years have been as a single Mom in a country where you don‘t speak the language.

And here we are now. My daughter is the first to say that she had a great childhood - speaks several languages (Swiss German and English being her mother-tongue), adores and has always felt supported by both myself and her Dad. Learned from her Mom some role-model bits, completed her masters with honors last year and was head-hunted for the great job she‘s now in since last November. Which she loves.

The Swiss courts decided our separation liabilities. As my ex- husband didn‘t work for many years following his diagnosis (was put on IV - invalidity insurance, as well as other restrictions through KESB), I was a bit worried for a while that I would need to pay him maintenance contributions. Which would have been impossible - it is so expensive to have a child at home - school trips, books, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Luckily, the Swiss system is such that it ensured that we could all continue in our lives without needing social security. The ex-husband has also paid back the money he received from the IV. I didn’t need to go on social security.

I am happily now in early retirement after having built a good retirement fund, ex-husband is in a new relationship since years, and daughter is very, very happy in her relationship, apartment and career.

Any more questions?
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  #28  
Old 04.10.2021, 07:43
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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<Lots of information about myself and nothing helping poster.>

Any more questions?
Yes, the poster asked about:

- Gaining visibility on maintenance payment expense: I'm very happy to see the money well spent in the well being and education of the child but not overpaying to finance the lavish lifestyle of the mother.

- Understanding what seems an illogical payment: Also if the father takes the child for holidays 3 weeks in a given month, why should he be forced to pay a full child support bill that month? it is IMO nonsense.

Are you able to help the poster with the request they have made, which is what is relevant here.
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  #29  
Old 04.10.2021, 08:55
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

Hi everyone, while I am still reading through all the very helpful and insightful information, I would like to thank you all.

I'm feeling much more comfortable with the suggested 26% even though I still find it excessive in absolute terms 3000.-CHF per month. I can't still fully wrap my head around on how can you spend that kind of money in a child but ok.

Our child is 8 y.o. and my ex has a lot of defects but she is not that bad:
- she organizes a lot extra curricular activities for our child: piano, other language, math help, ice skating, etc.
- she really looks after the well being of our child.
- she has a degree, and earns 8k+ CHF per month. She is not really a person in need or having basic existence issues, to the contrary: have an amazing flat that costs 3k+ per month and drives a BMW of the year.

Now the bad sides that lead to this post:
- My ex gives me no participation in the decisions of what our child does e.g. I would like my daughter to learn tennis or Karate. I have no voice on that, she ignores it.
- My ex spends the money lightly e.g. going often to 5* hotels way above her income level.
- My ex stayed in RAV for long and filed this request when her income history of the last two years is the lowest and to maximize the child support amount. I find this fishy and dishonest but ok. A lawyer can help here with the point of hypothetical income.
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Old 04.10.2021, 09:15
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

I assume you could always go back to court and get the settlement adjusted now she's working.
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  #31  
Old 04.10.2021, 09:38
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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Hi everyone, while I am still reading through all the very helpful and insightful information, I would like to thank you all.

I'm feeling much more comfortable with the suggested 26% even though I still find it excessive in absolute terms 3000.-CHF per month. I can't still fully wrap my head around on how can you spend that kind of money in a child but ok.

Our child is 8 y.o. and my ex has a lot of defects but she is not that bad:
- she organizes a lot extra curricular activities for our child: piano, other language, math help, ice skating, etc.
- she really looks after the well being of our child.
- she has a degree, and earns 8k+ CHF per month. She is not really a person in need or having basic existence issues, to the contrary: have an amazing flat that costs 3k+ per month and drives a BMW of the year.

Now the bad sides that lead to this post:
- My ex gives me no participation in the decisions of what our child does e.g. I would like my daughter to learn tennis or Karate. I have no voice on that, she ignores it.
- My ex spends the money lightly e.g. going often to 5* hotels way above her income level.
- My ex stayed in RAV for long and filed this request when her income history of the last two years is the lowest and to maximize the child support amount. I find this fishy and dishonest but ok. A lawyer can help here with the point of hypothetical income.
Kids cost a lot of money... I am not sure of your situation but just off the top of my head:

1500 CHF Hort full time
300 CHF Health insurance
200 CHF clothes
400 CHF food & snacks
500 CHF rent & utilities

2900 CHF - no piano lessons or holidays etc.

Now of course these are broad numbers and both of you should contribute if she is working.

K
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  #32  
Old 04.10.2021, 09:50
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

2500 a month for daycare and 600 a month for a larger apartment and the budget is already blown.
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  #33  
Old 04.10.2021, 09:58
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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2500 a month for daycare and 600 a month for a larger apartment and the budget is already blown.
If your paying 2500 for daycare then your child is in full time, which means both parents are working, so the budget for the child is now 6000, not 3000. Its too high, if you have 4 kids theoretically it means you need 24000 to support your kids per month.
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  #34  
Old 04.10.2021, 10:24
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

A rough spreadsheet to help dispel the idea that your ex uses money on herself or how to embrace the fact that you help raise your child

This is actual homework asked at 6th grade level: How much do they cost their parents per year? Get a spreadsheet out and start crunching some numbers. I will do my best to be as conservative as I can in my estimates.

From the info you provided: you make 3K so you contribute 780/month to the care of your child.

Fixed expenses
Housing/health/food - these are pretty fixed - once you are locked into the contract, this is it for a while; food, clothing, and shoes can be found cheaper, but you can't go below a certain number. Shall we say that a child's costs are at around 600 per month? Location dependent.

Moving costs can wipe out any perceived "savings" in future rent, plus moving can contribute to stress for the child, etc. All this could mean future additional costs (ex. if the child needs therapy).

Variable expenses
Childcare - ouch!!! until the child is old enough
In person care 24/7 - when the child is sick who takes off from work and runs around for your child? Time is money, so the person responsible for this must have the funds to do so. Who does all the scheduling and makes sure the child's life goes as smoothly as possible? That, too, is money. One needs a serious buffer for this time period!

Trips, museums, cinema, dentist, eye care, etc. Obviously NOT zero, so one has to build a fund for these in order to draw from when necessary. A dentist trip: cleaning = 150/visit * 2 times/yr = 300. Add to it if there is an extraction for stubborn teeth, a cavity to be repaired, braces, etc - check out Chuff's dental thread and others to see the price. Say a budget of 1500 to be on the safe side per year. Not all medicine is covered 100% but most is, so let's say a smaller budget here = 300. If your child needs glasses, add to this fund. We at a super minimum of 2000 per year hoping they don't all strike at once.

Extracurriculars - one can make do without these, but they enrich the life of a person, plus they are an investment into the future, so they are nice to have - "piano, other language, math help, ice skating, etc." If the child needs extra help in school, then they move into the must haves, and no longer considered extras. Plus, once in a contract, they move into fixed expenses until the contract runs out.

Our school charges about 1300 per year for instrument classes, so I assume a minimum of the same, similarly if she is in an ice skating program, a few hundreds to 1K, language the same, math the same.

Example
Music 1300/ school yr
Math + Languages + ice skating = CH25/h * 3 * 45 weeks = 3375 round up to 3500.
Trips + museums + other = 500
We are at over 5000 per year just on extracurriculars (or less if the person needs language and math tutoring, and way more if the price per hour is 30 or more).

You see that with just a rough estimation your contributions help raise your child, but do not cover their care entirely, let alone leave any extra for the mother.
QED
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Old 04.10.2021, 10:26
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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Yes, the poster asked about:

- Understanding what seems an illogical payment: Also if the father takes the child for holidays 3 weeks in a given month, why should he be forced to pay a full child support bill that month? it is IMO nonsense.
.
I would respond to this as follows due to my experience. Most of the child rearing expenses of the parent that has the child the majority of the time relate to fixed expenses. This includes health insurance, expenses running the household, and abonnements for extra school activities, sports clubs and the like. Also all the clothes. This does not change nor decrease because the child goes on vacation with the other parent for a few weeks. The food and variable costs that may change due to vacation are peanuts compared to the other fixed costs that have to be paid regularly/monthly no matter what.
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Old 04.10.2021, 10:42
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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A rough spreadsheet to help dispel the idea that your ex uses money on herself or how to embrace the fact that you help raise your child

This is actual homework asked at 6th grade level: How much do they cost their parents per year? Get a spreadsheet out and start crunching some numbers. I will do my best to be as conservative as I can in my estimates.

From the info you provided: you make 3K so you contribute 780/month to the care of your child.

Fixed expenses
Housing/health/food - these are pretty fixed - once you are locked into the contract, this is it for a while; food, clothing, and shoes can be found cheaper, but you can't go below a certain number. Shall we say that a child's costs are at around 600 per month? Location dependent.

Moving costs can wipe out any perceived "savings" in future rent, plus moving can contribute to stress for the child, etc. All this could mean future additional costs (ex. if the child needs therapy).

Variable expenses
Childcare - ouch!!! until the child is old enough
In person care 24/7 - when the child is sick who takes off from work and runs around for your child? Time is money, so the person responsible for this must have the funds to do so. Who does all the scheduling and makes sure the child's life goes as smoothly as possible? That, too, is money. One needs a serious buffer for this time period!

Trips, museums, cinema, dentist, eye care, etc. Obviously NOT zero, so one has to build a fund for these in order to draw from when necessary. A dentist trip: cleaning = 150/visit * 2 times/yr = 300. Add to it if there is an extraction for stubborn teeth, a cavity to be repaired, braces, etc - check out Chuff's dental thread and others to see the price. Say a budget of 1500 to be on the safe side per year. Not all medicine is covered 100% but most is, so let's say a smaller budget here = 300. If your child needs glasses, add to this fund. We at a super minimum of 2000 per year hoping they don't all strike at once.

Extracurriculars - one can make do without these, but they enrich the life of a person, plus they are an investment into the future, so they are nice to have - "piano, other language, math help, ice skating, etc." If the child needs extra help in school, then they move into the must haves, and no longer considered extras. Plus, once in a contract, they move into fixed expenses until the contract runs out.

Our school charges about 1300 per year for instrument classes, so I assume a minimum of the same, similarly if she is in an ice skating program, a few hundreds to 1K, language the same, math the same.

Example
Music 1300/ school yr
Math + Languages + ice skating = CH25/h * 3 * 45 weeks = 3375 round up to 3500.
Trips + museums + other = 500
We are at over 5000 per year just on extracurriculars (or less if the person needs language and math tutoring, and way more if the price per hour is 30 or more).

You see that with just a rough estimation your contributions help raise your child, but do not cover their care entirely, let alone leave any extra for the mother.
QED
Great info, its what this site is about. One correction I think - he pays 3000CHF per month as I read it, not that he earns 3000 per month. So the 12 month figure would be 36,000 per year.
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Old 04.10.2021, 11:02
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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Great info, its what this site is about. One correction I think - he pays 3000CHF per month as I read it, not that he earns 3000 per month. So the 12 month figure would be 36,000 per year.
That’s how I understood it too.

I think if his ex’s circumstances have changed since the court order was made he can go back and ask for it to be revised. The ex appears to have a good income too so the childcare expenses should be shared fairly.
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  #38  
Old 04.10.2021, 11:12
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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If your paying 2500 for daycare then your child is in full time, which means both parents are working, so the budget for the child is now 6000, not 3000. Its too high, if you have 4 kids theoretically it means you need 24000 to support your kids per month.
well, there are some economies of scale. for the first child, you might need to buy a car. but you wouldn't need a second car for the second child.

but even looking at only 1 child you have, say, 2500 for the day care.

let's say there's 7 hours of care for child outside of daycare time plus weekends for a total of 60 hours. at 35fr per hour with taxes that comes out at over 10k per month.

so now you're at around 12'500 just for looking after the child. not including housing, car, health insurance etc.

for 2 kids that would scale to 15'500 per month.
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Old 04.10.2021, 11:22
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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well, there are some economies of scale. for the first child, you might need to buy a car. but you wouldn't need a second car for the second child.

but even looking at only 1 child you have, say, 2500 for the day care.

let's say there's 7 hours of care for child outside of daycare time plus weekends for a total of 60 hours. at 35fr per hour with taxes that comes out at over 10k per month.

so now you're at around 12'500 just for looking after the child. not including housing, car, health insurance etc.

for 2 kids that would scale to 15'500 per month.
Which neatly sums up the point - the numbers are fairytale stuff, otherwise society wouldn't be able to function as almost no one earns those kind of figures.

Why would you have 60 hours of childcare in addition to full time garderie ? There would be no such need, plus 35chf per hour is miles above market rate for babysitting.
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Old 04.10.2021, 12:37
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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35chf per hour is miles above market rate for babysitting.
Not really.

Tom
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