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Old 04.10.2021, 12:51
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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Why would you have 60 hours of childcare in addition to full time garderie ?
because kids need looking after even outside of daycare/school. if anything 60 hours is underestimating it.

now normally, the parents would step in to do some of this work instead of outsourcing it. let's say one is a full time parent, the other works and the household income is split in two.

in a split family, each parent would then do their 30 hours or pay somebody else to do it.
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Old 04.10.2021, 12:56
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

Another sad thread about this topic. Overall, Switzerland isn't the worse place in the world to be divorced and have to pay for kids, but it's still an incredibly unfair system that allows the recipient to spend 'money for the kids' on anything they want. Short of obvious hardship, it's assumed adults will be fair and reasonable. Sometimes they are, sometimes they're not.

The only way I imagined it being made more fair would be for the child support money to go to a separate account where the provider could see how it was spent.... but of course, in practical terms that would also have a lot of challenges.
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  #43  
Old 04.10.2021, 13:01
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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Not really.

Tom
Yes, really.
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  #44  
Old 04.10.2021, 13:09
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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because kids need looking after even outside of daycare/school. if anything 60 hours is underestimating it.

now normally, the parents would step in to do some of this work instead of outsourcing it. let's say one is a full time parent, the other works and the household income is split in two.

in a split family, each parent would then do their 30 hours or pay somebody else to do it.
I can't quite believe we are arguing this point. I have three kids just to give some credibility to my line of reasoning here. So lets take an example in a split family, the children's time is shared between the two adults. It also means that you do not have the kids there 7 days a week so from an activity planning perspective you have days when you are able to fully have 24 hours to cater for your own actions.

If, outside of this, you also need 60 hours a month of childcare, i.e. 15 hours a week, so the either the complete weekend all day both days or one complete weekend day and 3 evenings a week, then you are grossly over-demanding from your ex-partner for contributions, in fact your taking them to the cleaners.

Your exceptional case is you never let your ex partner see their kids, you demand 60 hours a week in additional childcare, (for which you are also overpaying) and you work full time and have them in garderie during the day. If this is your circumstances, then you either have a piggybank as an ex-partner or you are the former wife of a premier league footballer at a guess.
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Old 04.10.2021, 13:22
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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Not really.

Tom
Itís over the top for a babysitter but not for a qualified nanny.

It depends on how you define babysitter really.
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  #46  
Old 04.10.2021, 13:25
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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Which neatly sums up the point - the numbers are fairytale stuff, otherwise society wouldn't be able to function as almost no one earns those kind of figures.

Why would you have 60 hours of childcare in addition to full time garderie ? There would be no such need, plus 35chf per hour is miles above market rate for babysitting.
It doesn't help to get emotional. These disputes are won with a cool head. No one expecting to win a dispute talks about "the numbers are fairytale stuff".

The law contemplates changes in the alimony. As children grow, the parent in charge is expected to work more hours up to 100%. In the case of OP, the mother found a good job, so it is possible theoretically to request the judge a reduction in the alimony payment......if she got an unlimited contract (this is not clear yet).

OP, he reduction can be asked to the judge by your ex and you. Don't know the details and don't want to know them, but maybe the issue can be solved with a conversation. Or you need a lawyer that could tell if there are sufficient bases to ask the reduction unilaterally and win the dispute over it.
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  #47  
Old 04.10.2021, 13:34
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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I can't quite believe we are arguing this point. I have three kids just to give some credibility to my line of reasoning here. So lets take an example in a split family, the children's time is shared between the two adults. It also means that you do not have the kids there 7 days a week so from an activity planning perspective you have days when you are able to fully have 24 hours to cater for your own actions.

If, outside of this, you also need 60 hours a month of childcare, i.e. 15 hours a week, so the either the complete weekend all day both days or one complete weekend day and 3 evenings a week, then you are grossly over-demanding from your ex-partner for contributions, in fact your taking them to the cleaners.

Your exceptional case is you never let your ex partner see their kids, you demand 60 hours a week in additional childcare, (for which you are also overpaying) and you work full time and have them in garderie during the day. If this is your circumstances, then you either have a piggybank as an ex-partner or you are the former wife of a premier league footballer at a guess.
OP said that he has no control, so I assume the partner has the kid full time.

if OP takes the kid half time, then it would be 30 hours instead of 60.

as noted before, 35 per hour is within the normal rate for a nanny in switzerland.

you say that you have 3 kids, do you and your partner really spend less than 60 hours a week looking after them? e.g getting them ready for tagi, meals, getting them ready for bed, changing nappies, bathing them, waking up when they cry in the night, admin related to activities/school/tagi/vaccinations/doctors' appointments.

i'm not sure whether your partner is the primary caregiver and you are grossly underestimating the time spent on this activity, or whether kids are old enough that you just leave them to their own devices most of the time. because when i added up the time spent with kids in my household it came to 65 hours a week (during school times).
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  #48  
Old 04.10.2021, 13:52
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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I assume you could always go back to court and get the settlement adjusted now she's working.
I missed this brief, focused and helpful comment.

All other talk is just venting personal issues (which is OK, this is a public forum), but not helpful to OP.
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  #49  
Old 04.10.2021, 14:03
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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I missed this brief, focused and helpful comment.

All other talk is just venting personal issues (which is OK, this is a public forum), but not helpful to OP.
yup. if the circumstances have changed, then OP can ask for an adjustment.
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Old 04.10.2021, 14:14
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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OP said that he has no control, so I assume the partner has the kid full time.

if OP takes the kid half time, then it would be 30 hours instead of 60.

as noted before, 35 per hour is within the normal rate for a nanny in switzerland.

you say that you have 3 kids, do you and your partner really spend less than 60 hours a week looking after them? e.g getting them ready for tagi, meals, getting them ready for bed, changing nappies, bathing them, waking up when they cry in the night, admin related to activities/school/tagi/vaccinations/doctors' appointments.

i'm not sure whether your partner is the primary caregiver and you are grossly underestimating the time spent on this activity, or whether kids are old enough that you just leave them to their own devices most of the time.

i added up the and it came to 65 hours a week during school times.
Ok, lets do this another way then. Les say your numbers are correct and as you pointed out it costs 12,500CHF per month for one child, 15,500 for two children before transport and others.

The average household income in Switzerland a few years ago, with low inflation since, was 10,079CHF per month (https://www.eda.admin.ch/aboutswitze...-ausgaben.html).

The Swiss Federal Statistics office says a child costs around 1000CHF per month https://www.postfinance.ch/en/privat...itzerland.html
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Old 04.10.2021, 14:33
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

So you're earning 12K/month, pay 3K/month to support your child, and think that you cannot afford 'fun time' with your child ?


Ahhhh...... and you want sympathy - try living on 10K with two working parents and three kids.... you're far off from the 'going backwards scenario where childcare is more expensive than one parent at home...



Your wife's financial choices are her own.... unless your child is actually being neglected....



And can I point out, she is earning 3/4 of your salary, and as long as she is taking the majority of caring responsiblity, your capacity to grow your personal wealth is probably double hers.
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  #52  
Old 04.10.2021, 15:34
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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Ok, lets do this another way then. Les say your numbers are correct and as you pointed out it costs 12,500CHF per month for one child, 15,500 for two children before transport and others.

The average household income in Switzerland a few years ago, with low inflation since, was 10,079CHF per month (https://www.eda.admin.ch/aboutswitze...-ausgaben.html).

The Swiss Federal Statistics office says a child costs around 1000CHF per month https://www.postfinance.ch/en/privat...itzerland.html
yes and in these situations one partner is being forced to work at below market rates because they can't afford to outsource childcare. put it another way, how many hours a week would you, OP or anybody else be willing to work at this supposedly 'high' rate of 35 chf per hour? all 30 hours to reduce their contribution to zero? or less? these would be fragmented hours before school, just after school and also at night. making it more awkward to do your job, it not impossible meaning having to quit your job or reduce your salary.
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Old 04.10.2021, 15:41
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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And can I point out, she is earning 3/4 of your salary, and as long as she is taking the majority of caring responsiblity, your capacity to grow your personal wealth is probably double hers.
exactly, the lost income/opportunity cost of is huge. i came close to burning out last year and even though i didn't quit - the cost of dialling things down, not going for promotions, not doing the extras to put yourself forward is extremely costly - and that's with not even quitting your job or taking a year out on maternity leave. people talk about gender pay gap - i'm pretty sure the direct and indirect 'costs' of motherhood make up a huge portion of that gap.
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  #54  
Old 04.10.2021, 15:46
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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yes and in these situations one partner is being forced to work at below market rates because they can't afford to outsource childcare. put it another way, how many hours a week would you, OP or anybody else be willing to work at this supposedly 'high' rate of 35 chf per hour? all 30 hours to reduce their contribution to zero? or less? these would be fragmented hours before school, just after school and also at night. making it more awkward to do your job, it not impossible meaning having to quit your job or reduce your salary.
Right ok, now I get it. So its the theoretical extra work of bringing up children that is coming to 12k a month if you consider that any extra work outside a normal childless existence would be done by a carer, which is where the calculated figure comes from.

It just doesn't bear any semblance to the real world, but I understand how you are getting to the number at least.
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Old 04.10.2021, 19:32
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Re: what's a reasonable child support percent out of the father's net income?

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Right ok, now I get it. So its the theoretical extra work of bringing up children that is coming to 12k a month if you consider that any extra work outside a normal childless existence would be done by a carer, which is where the calculated figure comes from.

It just doesn't bear any semblance to the real world, but I understand how you are getting to the number at least.

In the 'real world' it costs a lot more than that to keep kids in paid care 100% (eg, group home or insistution care).... putting a dollar value on raising children and also caring responsiblities for family members in case of disability, old age, is a work of specialised economists. There is no doubt, it's a lot cheaper to keep it in the family, than to outsource it to professionals. When one parent is absent/uninvolved/excluded or simply does not take an active role, then that caring responsiblity falls to the other. By choice or not, it's a significant contribution and should be valued.


But placing an actual dollar value on it... that's always going to be controversial, no matter how you decide to calculate it...


And there no doubt that the 'cost' of having the child under the father's roof (in this case) is going to be a lot more than 3000k/month if he has to pay a carer, and forego salary and career progression, to care for the child. And in this case 3000chf is not leaving the OP in a bad financial situation - he still has 9000 to play with per month, or thereabouts.... around double the basic liveable wage in Switzerland... and he does not need to commit to large apartment, staying close to the child's school or planning his year around 13 weeks of school holidays plus whatever absences the child will have during the year due to illness, school holidays, teacher absence etc etc etc.
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