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  #61  
Old 25.11.2021, 14:29
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Re: Here comes the next wave - 'mandatory' WFH

Bans are coming back any time I imagine. Doing long distance travel has become a lottery again. They also closed the Zurich Insurance offices from today, which is a few days earlier than expected.
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  #62  
Old 25.11.2021, 14:55
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Re: Here comes the next wave - 'mandatory' WFH

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And quite frankly is the patience of many vaccinated running low as well. I find it unacceptable that people die because of the stupidity of a few. And I find it unacceptable if we have to all endure limitations to our freedom because of the perceived freedom of a few individuals. I just hope than any future lock downs are specifically for the unvaccinated.
The problem is that this feeds their paranoia, victimhood and entrenches them even further in their views.
I have a friend across the border in Konstanz who is outraged that she is being blamed for the spike in cases by incompetent politicians, the media and smug vaccinated colleagues. She's already very well embedded in pro-freedom, anti-vaccine groups on FB judging by the amount of stuff she sends me. Sometimes it does seem like I am getting through and other times I am deluged with YouTube videos and publications. The latest was this article in the BMJ about irregularities at a Pfizer clinical test center in Texas. This for her was the smoking gun and proof of a deep-state conspiracy between governments and pharma.

I tried to explain that this is not uncommon in such a large scale, multi-center, global clinical trials. The data would be biased both for and against the vaccine (e.g. incorrect storage could render it useless) and anyway the data from that site could easily be censored from the final analysis if its found to be compromised... but she's not hearing any of it.

I feel that once a person's mind is made up no appealing to reason or presenting of facts will make any difference. She is happy to take a schnelltest, every day for the rest of her life rather than get the jab. So its up to politicians to find a sensible way forward that doesn't result in civil war, because I'm not in favour of Austria's approach either.
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  #63  
Old 25.11.2021, 16:20
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Re: Here comes the next wave - 'mandatory' WFH

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The problem is that this feeds their paranoia, victimhood and entrenches them even further in their views.
I have a friend across the border in Konstanz who is outraged that she is being blamed for the spike in cases by incompetent politicians, the media and smug vaccinated colleagues. She's already very well embedded in pro-freedom, anti-vaccine groups on FB judging by the amount of stuff she sends me. Sometimes it does seem like I am getting through and other times I am deluged with YouTube videos and publications. The latest was this article in the BMJ about irregularities at a Pfizer clinical test center in Texas. This for her was the smoking gun and proof of a deep-state conspiracy between governments and pharma.

I tried to explain that this is not uncommon in such a large scale, multi-center, global clinical trials. The data would be biased both for and against the vaccine (e.g. incorrect storage could render it useless) and anyway the data from that site could easily be censored from the final analysis if its found to be compromised... but she's not hearing any of it.

I feel that once a person's mind is made up no appealing to reason or presenting of facts will make any difference. She is happy to take a schnelltest, every day for the rest of her life rather than get the jab. So its up to politicians to find a sensible way forward that doesn't result in civil war, because I'm not in favour of Austria's approach either.
I agree. I have not seen any debate in society as toxic as this one during my lifetime... too bad we cant just put the nutters on ships and send them to America as we used to...
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  #64  
Old 25.11.2021, 16:28
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Re: Here comes the next wave - 'mandatory' WFH

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The problem is that this feeds their paranoia, victimhood and entrenches them even further in their views.
I have a friend across the border in Konstanz who is outraged that she is being blamed for the spike in cases by incompetent politicians, the media and smug vaccinated colleagues. She's already very well embedded in pro-freedom, anti-vaccine groups on FB judging by the amount of stuff she sends me. Sometimes it does seem like I am getting through and other times I am deluged with YouTube videos and publications. The latest was this article in the BMJ about irregularities at a Pfizer clinical test center in Texas. This for her was the smoking gun and proof of a deep-state conspiracy between governments and pharma.

I tried to explain that this is not uncommon in such a large scale, multi-center, global clinical trials. The data would be biased both for and against the vaccine (e.g. incorrect storage could render it useless) and anyway the data from that site could easily be censored from the final analysis if its found to be compromised... but she's not hearing any of it.

I feel that once a person's mind is made up no appealing to reason or presenting of facts will make any difference. She is happy to take a schnelltest, every day for the rest of her life rather than get the jab. So its up to politicians to find a sensible way forward that doesn't result in civil war, because I'm not in favour of Austria's approach either.
When people make decisions based on science and science changes then it is easy to change the decision

When the decision was emotional then almost impossible to reverse.
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  #65  
Old 25.11.2021, 18:14
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Re: Here comes the next wave - 'mandatory' WFH

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I agree. I have not seen any debate in society as toxic as this one during my lifetime...
Well, Brexit, but at least that wasn't life threatening.

A friend of mine has a wife and step-daughter who are both in at-risk categories. His wife refuses to be vaccinated, and insists that her daughter shouldn't be either.
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  #66  
Old 25.11.2021, 18:55
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Re: Here comes the next wave - 'mandatory' WFH

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Well, Brexit, but at least that wasn't life threatening.

A friend of mine has a wife and step-daughter who are both in at-risk categories. His wife refuses to be vaccinated, and insists that her daughter shouldn't be either.
Some people one can't help
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  #67  
Old 25.11.2021, 21:18
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Re: Here comes the next wave - 'mandatory' WFH

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Just to be clear - there is no antibiotics given for any virus and none of the antivirals are based on antibiotics . However often people take antibiotics thinking it may help ..

Only case of antibiotics is when there is secondary (bacterial) infection as result of earlier immunology deficit created by viral infection. It's very reason why Swiss doctors would not prescribe antibiotics when your blood sample shows no sign of bacterial infection
Please don't misconstrue what I said down to antiviral=antibiotics. It's both absurdly reductionistic and like a crime against similes.
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  #68  
Old 25.11.2021, 21:43
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Re: Here comes the next wave - 'mandatory' WFH

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Well, Brexit, but at least that wasn't life threatening.

A friend of mine has a wife and step-daughter who are both in at-risk categories. His wife refuses to be vaccinated, and insists that her daughter shouldn't be either.
My MIL is the same way ... found out recently she told my SIL that my husband & I aren’t vaccinated in order to help convince her not to get one. That manipulation really pissed me off. I proudly sent her our vax certificates.
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  #69  
Old 25.11.2021, 22:02
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Re: Here comes the next wave - 'mandatory' WFH

I work from home, but I chuckled when my company sent an email two months ago that vaccination becomes mandatory to enter the office, also for those who recovered from COVID
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  #70  
Old Yesterday, 10:03
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Re: Here comes the next wave - 'mandatory' WFH

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I work from home, but I chuckled when my company sent an email two months ago that vaccination becomes mandatory to enter the office, also for those who recovered from COVID
Why would you chuckle? Ever heard of "hybrid immunity"?
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  #71  
Old Yesterday, 10:04
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Re: Here comes the next wave - 'mandatory' WFH

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Why would you chuckle? Ever heard of "hybrid immunity"?
it would be funnier if they insisted that those who are vaccinated must also have recovered from infection.
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  #72  
Old Yesterday, 11:49
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Re: Here comes the next wave - 'mandatory' WFH

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Why would you chuckle? Ever heard of "hybrid immunity"?

So you say the vaccine is a different virus and it's good to also have immunity against it
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  #73  
Old Yesterday, 11:50
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Re: Here comes the next wave - 'mandatory' WFH

For whatever it's worth, Portugal has an 86% fully vaccinated rate and they're locking down again.

Because it's a US news source, the vaccination rate appears to be accurate.

We're no longer fighting a pandemic, COVID is endemic, much like the flu, the common cold, Norovirus (AKA stomach flu), etc... Want to be angry at the un-vaxxed, be my guest, but if I were a betting man I'd wager we'd be seeing something very similar even with a 100% vaccination rate.
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Old Yesterday, 12:12
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Re: Here comes the next wave - 'mandatory' WFH

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For whatever it's worth, Portugal has an 86% fully vaccinated rate and they're locking down again.

Because it's a US news source, the vaccination rate appears to be accurate.

We're no longer fighting a pandemic, COVID is endemic, much like the flu, the common cold, Norovirus (AKA stomach flu), etc... Want to be angry at the un-vaxxed, be my guest, but if I were a betting man I'd wager we'd be seeing something very similar even with a 100% vaccination rate.
Did you actually read your article? Thats what the "lock down" you are talking about means:
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From Dec. 1, wearing a face mask will once again be mandatory in enclosed spaces; a digital certificate proving vaccination or recovery from the coronavirus must be shown to enter restaurants, cinemas and hotels; and even inoculated people must have a negative test to visit hospitals, elderly care homes, sports events and bars and discos.

Furthermore, everyone arriving on a flight from abroad must present a negative test result.

The government also recommended regular self-testing and working from home whenever possible.

The rollout of booster shots is being stepped up, Costa said.
Thats not a lock down, thats just taking care.

Want to see the difference those 20% more vaccinated make? Check out the infection curves for Portugal vs Switzerland.

"We just gonna have to live with it" is simply not true. The vaccines work and make a huge difference... if enough people take it to break infection chains.
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  #75  
Old Yesterday, 12:34
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Re: Here comes the next wave - 'mandatory' WFH

Take a look at the projections for Portugal...things are under control here. Life is normal here on the Silver Coast. In particular, look at the hospital curves.

https://covid19.healthdata.org/portu...aths&tab=trend
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  #76  
Old Yesterday, 16:24
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Re: Here comes the next wave - 'mandatory' WFH

And despite our lower vaccination rate, Portugal's hospitalization rate is worse.



(For clarification, the purple line is Portugal, Switzerland is the grayed-out line.)
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  #77  
Old Yesterday, 16:42
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Re: Here comes the next wave - 'mandatory' WFH

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And despite our lower vaccination rate, Portugal's hospitalization rate is worse.



(For clarification, the purple line is Portugal, Switzerland is the grayed-out line.)
The healthcare systems are very different, so the number of people getting hospitalized is a very hard to compare metric. If you switch the button on your screen to "ICU only" will the numbers be pretty close with Portugal slightly higher. Interesting to look into, but I bet its because they have a median age thats three years higher than Switzerland (young Portuguese leave their country to work elsewhere while Switzerland is an immigration country). Three years on average more means in practice a whole lot more people in the high risk group. But yeah, go on and cherry pick some more statistics. Whats the point you want to make?
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  #78  
Old Yesterday, 17:09
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Re: Here comes the next wave - 'mandatory' WFH

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Whats the point you want to make?
The point?

I suspect that we're never putting the COVID genie back in the bottle, that even 100% vaccination would not stop it from spreading, and we're going to have to find ways to live with it that don't require constantly panicking people or pitting them against each other.
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