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  #181  
Old 10.09.2010, 09:51
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Re: Breast feeding

Thanks,

When I breastfed I was disappointed to see my daughter getting every freaking little bugs around. She spend the 1 year 1/2 sick anyway.

Much for the breatfeeding protections...
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  #182  
Old 10.09.2010, 11:07
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Re: Breast feeding

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The advantages of breast feeding over formula is not undisputed from an immunological perspective. The debate regarding this issue is still ongoing and controversial within the scientific bodies.

K M Järvinen and H. Suomalainen writes in their "Development of cow's milk allergy in breast-fed infants" in the introduction:

This seems to relate to specific cases.

Personally I was bottle fed. Guess I turned out fine. My child is currently bottle and breast fed as there is not enough milk to go around. While I would personally prefer to bottle feed the child, as I can be more involved I think its best for the kid and Mom to keep breast feeding.

If a person is able to breast feed and chooses not to, it is there choice. Not one that I support but then again its not my kid.

That said, it is wrong for anyone to critisize someone for bottle feeding a child when the full facts are not known.
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  #183  
Old 10.09.2010, 14:15
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Re: Breast feeding

Nil. You are quite right. If for one reason or another there are issues with a mothers ability to breastfeed (including her desire to choose) then formula is the best second option. I have no problem with informed choice, but do take issue with formula is as good as breastfeeding.

Tilia. This article talks about asthma and allergies ONLY, and in this context you are correct that the evidence is not convincing. Undisputed is that exclusive breastfeeding improves overall nutrition, child development (emotional and physical), and IQ, and reduces risk of obesity, infectious disease, both childhood and adult cancers, and heart disease. There are more for sure, but I think you get the picture.

Now before you jump in here, let me make something quite clear. Just because you were not breastfed, doesn't make you a fat idiot about to die of heart disease or cancer. We are talking about small reductions in risk for each factor (or improved chances of a better, healtheir and longer life). Put together, all these little benefits make for one big argument - breastfeeding is better than formula. As long as prospective mothers have this information at hand when making their choice, then I am personally very happy with them choosing what is best for them and their child.
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  #184  
Old 10.09.2010, 14:24
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Re: Breast feeding

The point Nil was making is that it is not always a choice; for one reson or another some women cannot breastfeed no matter how much they want to. Women who fall into this category still get made to feel guilty about feeding their baby formula.


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As long as prospective mothers have this information at hand when making their choice, then I am personally very happy with them choosing what is best for them and their child.
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Old 10.09.2010, 14:47
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Re: Breast feeding

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This is just to show an example. Please note that I am only saying that the issue is not undisputed. I am not stating who is right and who is wrong. Since the issue is disputed, the jury is still out on that and each family has to do what they think is best for their child.

Totally agree and I spent a lot of hours searching the internet for proven benefits from breastfeeding and found studies going both directions. What also surprised me, was that no study seemed to take away socio-economic factors, e.g. studies showed that breastfed children are less obese. The studies regarding demographics on who breastfeeds and who doesn't, show that the higher your education, the more you breastfeed. Other studies show that obesity is more common in families with lower education and I doubt that would all be an aftermath of not being breastfed, but rather not knowing or not being able to afford healthy food.

It's a complex area and to make a study feasible, you have to put some limitations, but I don't buy the argument that it is undisputedly better for your baby to breastfeed in Western Europe, where we have clean water and the possibility to sterilize bottles. Everyone has to do what's better for them as a family.
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  #186  
Old 10.09.2010, 14:56
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Re: Breast feeding

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...I don't buy the argument that it is undisputedly better for your baby to breastfeed in Western Europe, where we have clean water and the possibility to sterilize bottles. Everyone has to do what's better for them as a family.
I buy the idea of breastfeeding being undisputedly better for my baby. I am glad I toughed it out, ugh. It's rarely easy. But I can see the results as my child grows. You can find all sorts of pro/against science and pseudoscience. I think it boils down to mom's guts, after all, in this jungle of info.

I also think moms are not made to feel anything, it is too bad they take their perceived failure to their heart so much. I am glad the aggressive formula campaigning is getting more ethical as the time goes. One does not have to suceed in nursing and yet consider it an important nutrition and a valuable bond.
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  #187  
Old 10.09.2010, 15:05
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Re: Breast feeding

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eWhat also surprised me, was that no study seemed to take away socio-economic factors, e.g. studies showed that breastfed children are less obese. The studies regarding demographics on who breastfeeds and who doesn't, show that the higher your education, the more you breastfeed. Other studies show that obesity is more common in families with lower education and I doubt that would all be an aftermath of not being breastfed, but rather not knowing or not being able to afford healthy food.
Are you saying that if you are from a lower socioeconomic basis then you are more likely to breastfeed? If so I wonder why. One of the reason I breast fed two kids (one for two years, the other for one year) was that it saved a stack of money. Also the thought of sterilizing bottles effectively freaked me out. My mother breast fed 7 kids and my sisters breastfed so I think a lot of it is tradition, very few women are physically unable to breastfeed. My husband did not like it he insisted on bottle-feeding my daughter himself. He has this theory that anything I can do he can do better even though he himself was breastfed. My friend's teenage daughter, who was not breastfed, is a genius!
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  #188  
Old 10.09.2010, 15:11
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Re: Breast feeding

Again, this is not undisputed. I gave an example from an immunological point of view. Those interested can easily go and find further information that puts all your issues below into dispute. I think you get the picture.

And to be honest, I would have expected a doctor to thread a bit more carefully when claiming things to be facts when it comes to issues such as child development, IQ, obesity and cancers.

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Undisputed is that exclusive breastfeeding improves overall nutrition, child development (emotional and physical), and IQ, and reduces risk of obesity, infectious disease, both childhood and adult cancers, and heart disease.
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  #189  
Old 10.09.2010, 15:12
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Re: Breast feeding

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Thanks,

When I breastfed I was disappointed to see my daughter getting every freaking little bugs around. She spend the 1 year 1/2 sick anyway.

Much for the breatfeeding protections...
Yes that annoyed me, but since, apart from the regular childhood illnesses, they generally see a doctor once a year for a check-up.
I think that breastfeeding can give them bugs but also gives them the antibodies as the mother produces them at the same time.

At first having a baby sucking on me did not feel natural at all, I had terrible problems with the let-down reflex.
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  #190  
Old 10.09.2010, 15:25
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Re: Breast feeding

Paging ljm, where is she...? She always lays the stats and scient. results down so nicely .

I think it is pretty rare people would still want to dispute the obvious benefits.

My brother actually did his master thesis in toxicology and heavy metals in brestmilk, etc. Big project, thousands of samples. He found no major difference to formula and bm. While some people had more heavy metals in their bm, some formula exceeded limits in other stuff.

I am glad that from my first hand experience nursing has worked wonders for my child's immune system. If the child gets sick or not while nursed depends on a lot more things than just the mere fact he/she is nursed. Moms need loads of proteins to actually make the antibodies from something and also be previously exposed. It also depends on how much and how frequently one nurses, the nutritional value also depends on mom's diet. If your child gets major food dose from solids and nurses just symbolically, the protection is a lot weaker than full on exclusive nursing. It is also good to avoid sick kids, many groups of kids and generally a lot of people, if your nursed child is prone to gettting ill, sometimes it is just common sense that protects more than bm.
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  #191  
Old 10.09.2010, 15:28
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Re: Breast feeding

Sit-in breastfeeding protest at Mickey D's. Breasts are powerful weapons!

http://www.parentdishblog.ca/2010/08...protest-super/
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  #192  
Old 10.09.2010, 15:28
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Re: Breast feeding

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Again, this is not undisputed. I gave an example from an immunological point of view. Those interested can easily go and find further information that puts all your issues below into dispute. I think you get the picture.

And to be honest, I would have expected a doctor to thread a bit more carefully when claiming things to be facts when it comes to issues such as child development, IQ, obesity and cancers.
Pure curiosity- how many things in the medical world are undisputed?
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  #193  
Old 10.09.2010, 15:33
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Re: Breast feeding

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Paging ljm, where is she...? She always lays the stats and scient. results down so nicely .

I think it is pretty rare people would still want to dispute the obvious benefits.

My brother actually did his master thesis in toxicology and heavy metals in brestmilk, etc. Big project, thousands of samples. He found no major difference to formula and bm. While some people had more heavy metals in their bm, some formula exceeded limits in other stuff.

I am glad that from my first hand experience nursing has worked wonders for my child's immune system. If the child gets sick or not while nursed depends on a lot more thigns than just the mere fact he/she is nursed. Moms need loads of proteins to actually make the antibodies from something and also be previously exposed. It also depends on how much and how frequently one nurses, the nutritional value depends on mom's diet, big time. If your child gets major food dose from solids and nurses just symbolically, the protection is a lot weaker than full on exclusive nursing. It is also good to avoid sick kids, many groups of kids and generally a lot of people, if your nursed child is prone to gettting ill, sometimes it is just common sense that protects more than bm.
MusicChick, I am a big fan of yours. I think you always bring common sense and nice input on the forum.

BUT I hate when you talk about all the benefice of breastfeeding, how the mother should get more help etc... WHEN some in here are struggling with not being able to breastfeed for medical reason, personal reason, social reason or just for not wanted to.

We all know the benefice of breastfeeding. The reason I didn't want to start the whole thread again is because I knew it come down on this speach again. Could we get a page or 2 about those who didn't breastfeed and how they got over this constant pressure from the pro-breastfeeder?
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  #194  
Old 10.09.2010, 15:35
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Re: Breast feeding

Not many, which is why I have a really hard time understanding why a doctor claims that the benefits of breast feeding is.


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Pure curiosity- how many things in the medical world are undisputed?
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  #195  
Old 10.09.2010, 15:40
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Re: Breast feeding

There are obvious benefits but less allergies, higher IQ, less obesity and less risk of cancer aren't the ones.


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the obvious benefits.
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  #196  
Old 10.09.2010, 15:53
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Re: Breast feeding

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MusicChick, I am a big fan of yours. I think you always bring common sense and nice input on the forum.

BUT I hate when you talk about all the benefice of breastfeeding, how the mother should get more help etc... WHEN some in here are struggling with not being able to breastfeed for medical reason, personal reason, social reason or just for not wanted to.

We all know the benefice of breastfeeding. The reason I didn't want to start the whole thread again is because I knew it come down on this speach again. Could we get a page or 2 about those who didn't breastfeed and how they got over this constant pressure from the pro-breastfeeder?
Heyyy, thanks for the compliments. Didn't you ask for PMs? So why reserving a page or 2?

This thread is about nursing, sorry it brings bad emotions, no need to rub anything in by any of us, real pro nurses don't try to hurt, just share their experiences, ya know? I am sure the fact someone reads this and gets inspired to nurse outweighs the few who didn't manage and feel bad about it. Let's put it this way, let those kids have their chance to nurse. I think all moms should have more support to nurse, more info, more room, more time, you name it. If they can't or decide not to, I dislike blaming them, too, it's cheap in my books, but people will not be quiet about benefits just because somebody does not nurse and is overly sensitive to those who made it or support it.

I am sorry you hate this, this thread was merged so expect both camps to chit chat. Controlling the flow will be hard, me thinks. If you want help with nursing next time, feel free to contact me, I know how to overcome the usual myths, low supply, etc. And don't feel bad, you are a tough girl... People who go for formula aren't worse parents than the nursing ones, no matter who says what, no matter of the stats.
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Old 10.09.2010, 15:56
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Re: Breast feeding

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Not many, which is why I have a really hard time understanding why a doctor claims that the benefits of breast feeding is.
So when exactly should we listen to doctors? Only in undisputed cases?

Perhaps it's a simple matter of wording:

-"You will likely develop health problems if you smoke cigarettes"

How many? What about Uncle Arthur who's still smoking at 91 and chops his own firewood?

-"A child may benefit physically and mentally from breastfeeding"

For a week? 2 years? What about my classmate Rick who grew up in an orphanage eating potatoes playing with mercury and has a 158 IQ and never gets sick?

Sure there are always exceptions, and sure it's common sense that smoking is bad for you and, I think, that breastfeeding is better than formula.

But bad and better are always in degrees- I doubt a fag or two here and there will kill you (or even measurably affect one's health) and I doubt that lovingly feeding formula to a child will create a sick moron, or show in any measurable manner in the grown child.

Certainly if a woman doesn't want to breastfeed then fine- and they shouldn't be judged on that. I think what some of the members are trying to get accross though is that women who have tried unsuccessfully to breastfeed can do it, almost always, with appropriate help. That's all. No judging.

Now I got to go see about this horse out back...
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Old 10.09.2010, 16:01
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Re: Breast feeding

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Certainly if a woman doesn't want to breastfeed then fine- and they shouldn't be judged on that. I think what some of the members are trying to get accross though is that women who have tried unsuccessfully to breastfeed can do it, almost always, with appropriate help. That's all. No judging.
This is all good on paper or screan but in reality, they get judge for it. The don't love their child enough, they are being selfish, they shouldn't have kids, they can have more help to be able to breastfeed (read MusicChick above).
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Old 10.09.2010, 16:04
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Re: Breast feeding

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There are obvious benefits but less allergies, higher IQ, less obesity and less risk of cancer aren't the ones.
Ok, it's been a while but being constantly fed by my doctor folks sending me the annoying articles from medical journals on benefits of nursing, incl higher IQ (I think on average it was 6 or 7 points), cancer prevention of mom, less obesity were definitely amongs them. If you have newer research you would like to share, please do, with dates, although I think it is not going to deter people from giving the most natural food to their child. However, these days we can pretty much prove anything, can't we...It is true though, that all the medical community that is around me wouldn't dispute the benefits of nursing and in fact, all of them nursed. We do have a great nursing support back home and three years maternity leave to make it work.

Disclaimer, sorry, Nil, if I am rubbing salt in your wounds, I don't mean to. Just dislike negativity towards nursing spread. In fact, I don't have much more to say about it.
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Old 10.09.2010, 16:12
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Re: Breast feeding

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This is all good on paper or screan but in reality, they get judge for it. The don't love their child enough, they are being selfish, they shouldn't have kids, they can have more help to be able to breastfeed (read MusicChick above).
MusicChick never said any of that. You've interpreted something very different from the reality.

Reminds me of a joke my Dad told me (when PC wasn't even a computer)

Guy with a wooden eye walks into a bar. He knows everyone is staring and mocking him behind his back. Then he spies a woman drinking alone, and she has a hairlip. He figures they would be kindred spirits with their facial disfigurations, so he musters up the courage to buy her a drink. She is elated, and so he asks,"Would you like to go on a date with me?"

The woman exclaimed,"Would I!".

And the dude shouts," Hairlip hairlip hairlip!" and storms out.


When you're feeling puny about something (sorry that's my Mom's term and can't think of a better one right now) it's easy to feel like you're being attacked when actually someone is empathizing with you.
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