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  #201  
Old 10.09.2010, 16:14
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Re: Breast feeding

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...they can have more help to be able to breastfeed (read MusicChick above).
Yeah, it is true, though, Nil, if I didn't have an appropriate support, incl a team of lactation agents on call 24/7, being able to stay with my child, hubby that was supporting, millions of bits of info gathered, there is no way I would have been able to. It is hard for some people. Especially the misleading myths on supply and demand cycle. And a ped who thought how strange to nurse in 21st century. Hahaha...I think most people around me weren't able to succeed since they did not have this emergency nursing support and enough info. If things don't work, one must act very very fast.

I don't think I am better for this than anyone else. I feel bad for those who feel bad, who wanted to and didn't manage. I know how much it hurts since I had my own hell with it. People who judge are silly. Don't read too much into posts, though, that are just trying to inform...
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  #202  
Old 10.09.2010, 16:15
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Re: Breast feeding

Due to my job and due to personal interest, I have read quite a lot of articles and research papers on the subject. I referred to one article above regarding allergies e.g. The issue of allergies was for many years an "undisputed fact" regarding breast-feeding. Today, however, the scientific body is much more cautious in stating the positive correlation here. In fact, the current opinion from professionals on the matter is that there is no correlation.

The information is out there and easily available. I did a quick search before in a medical journal database and it took me two minutes to find a (recent) research paper discarding the correlation with bottle feeding and obesity e.g. Unfortunatelly I lost my data connection when I was about to post the link.


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Ok, it's been a while but being constantly fed by my doctor folks sending me the annoying articles from medical journals on benefits of nursing, incl higher IQ (I think on average it was 6 or 7 points), cancer prevention of mom, less obesity were definitely amongs them. If you have newer research you would like to share, please do, with dates, although I think it is not going to deter people from giving the most natural food to their child. However, these days we can pretty much prove anything, can't we...It is true though, that all the medical community that is around me wouldn't dispute the benefits of nursing and in fact, all of them nursed. We do have a great nursing support back home and three years maternity leave to make it work.

Disclaimer, sorry, Nil, if I am rubbing salt in your wounds, I don't mean to. Just dislike negativity towards nursing spread. In fact, I don't have much more to say about it.
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  #203  
Old 10.09.2010, 16:17
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Re: Breast feeding

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Again, this is not undisputed. I gave an example from an immunological point of view. Those interested can easily go and find further information that puts all your issues below into dispute. I think you get the picture.

And to be honest, I would have expected a doctor to thread a bit more carefully when claiming things to be facts when it comes to issues such as child development, IQ, obesity and cancers.
Tilďa, for your benefit there are some links below from the American Academy of Pediatrics, NHS, and Unicef. I strongly suggest you take the time to familiarise yourself with all the evidence showing the reduced risk to the baby when breastfed. As you will discover, this includes obesity, cancer etc.

Also, do not be surprised if a Doctor promotes these points - myself included. The evidence is overwhelming. Consequently all Doctors are trained on these points, and their organisations (such as the American Academy of Pediatrics,) have policies (based upon this overwhelming evidence) to support breastfeeding. National governments and international organisations (Unicef, World Health Organisation) also have breastfeeding-support policies because of this evidence. If you question me, then you question all medical professionals. I do not consider myself particularly unusual and I am very much aligned with my colleagues both in Switzerland and abroad. That does not mean that all Doctors push breastfeeding. Indeed I don't. I provide the mother with the information (the Unicef site is very Mother friendly), and she makes a choice. I then help with that choice.

http://www.aap.org/breastfeeding/PolicyOnBreastfeeding.html

http://www.breastfeeding.nhs.uk/en/fe/page.asp?n1=2

http://www.babyfriendly.org.uk/page.asp?page=20
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  #204  
Old 10.09.2010, 17:01
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Re: Breast feeding

Here are some research papers for those interested and who have access to medical journal databases:

Obesity


Sabanayagam, C., Shankar, A., Chong, Y.-S., Wong, T. Y. and Saw, S. M. (2009), Breast-feeding and overweight in Singapore school children. Pediatrics International, 51: 650–656. doi: 10.1111/j.1442-200X.2009.02919.x (Discards)

Shields, L., Mamun, A. A., O’Callaghan, M., Williams, G. M. and Najman, J. M. (2010), Breastfeeding and obesity at 21 years: a cohort study. Journal of Clinical Nursing, 19: 1612–1617. doi: 10.1111/j.1365-2702.2009.03015.x (Discards)

Metzger, M. W. and McDade, T. W. (2010), Breastfeeding as obesity prevention in the United States: A sibling difference model. American Journal of Human Biology, 22: 291–296. doi: 10.1002/ajhb.20982 (confirms)

Intelligence

Holme, A., MacArthur, C. and Lancashire, R. (2010), The effects of breastfeeding on cognitive and neurological development of children at 9 years. Child: Care, Health and Development, 36: 583–590. doi: 10.1111/j.1365-2214.2009.01068.x (discards)


and so on...
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  #205  
Old 10.09.2010, 17:19
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Re: Breast feeding

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Here are some research papers for those interested and who have access to medical journal databases:

Obesity


Sabanayagam, C., Shankar, A., Chong, Y.-S., Wong, T. Y. and Saw, S. M. (2009), Breast-feeding and overweight in Singapore school children. Pediatrics International, 51: 650–656. doi: 10.1111/j.1442-200X.2009.02919.x (Discards)

Shields, L., Mamun, A. A., O’Callaghan, M., Williams, G. M. and Najman, J. M. (2010), Breastfeeding and obesity at 21 years: a cohort study. Journal of Clinical Nursing, 19: 1612–1617. doi: 10.1111/j.1365-2702.2009.03015.x (Discards)

Metzger, M. W. and McDade, T. W. (2010), Breastfeeding as obesity prevention in the United States: A sibling difference model. American Journal of Human Biology, 22: 291–296. doi: 10.1002/ajhb.20982 (confirms)

Intelligence

Holme, A., MacArthur, C. and Lancashire, R. (2010), The effects of breastfeeding on cognitive and neurological development of children at 9 years. Child: Care, Health and Development, 36: 583–590. doi: 10.1111/j.1365-2214.2009.01068.x (discards)


and so on...

For those interested, for every article Tilia mentions that do not support the benefits of breastfeeding, there are 100 that show the benefits.

Medical practice is based upon the weight of evidence, not the quotation of a select 4 that supports a preferred, if not misplaced argument.
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  #206  
Old 10.09.2010, 17:32
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Re: Breast feeding

Actually, not really. I went through only resent papers and was myself surprised at how few supporting papers there were. I would say it's 50/50 or even 60/40 in benefit of the "no-correlation" papers.

So the above samples of links on obesity (2 against correlation, 1 in favour of) pretty much sums up what I found doing a 10 minutes research on a medical papers database.


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For those interested, for every article Tilia mentions that do not support the benefits of breastfeeding, there are 100 that show the benefits.
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  #207  
Old 10.09.2010, 17:39
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Re: Breast feeding

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Heyyy, thanks for the compliments. Didn't you ask for PMs? So why reserving a page or 2?

This thread is about nursing, sorry it brings bad emotions, no need to rub anything in by any of us, real pro nurses don't try to hurt, just share their experiences, ya know? I am sure the fact someone reads this and gets inspired to nurse outweighs the few who didn't manage and feel bad about it. Let's put it this way, let those kids have their chance to nurse. I think all moms should have more support to nurse, more info, more room, more time, you name it. If they can't or decide not to, I dislike blaming them, too, it's cheap in my books, but people will not be quiet about benefits just because somebody does not nurse and is overly sensitive to those who made it or support it.

I am sorry you hate this, this thread was merged so expect both camps to chit chat. Controlling the flow will be hard, me thinks. If you want help with nursing next time, feel free to contact me, I know how to overcome the usual myths, low supply, etc. And don't feel bad, you are a tough girl... People who go for formula aren't worse parents than the nursing ones, no matter who says what, no matter of the stats.
This is the part I was refering too.

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This is all good on paper or screan but in reality, they get judge for it. The don't love their child enough, they are being selfish, they shouldn't have kids, they can have more help to be able to breastfeed (read MusicChick above).
Me refering it.

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MusicChick never said any of that. You've interpreted something very different from the reality.
Read above. I was refering on what she said before.

MusicChick, if it was that simple, if I was just having a hard time to breastfeed, I would jump on your offer.

But reality is more complicated. And lets assume I can breastfeed but I don't want. It should be ok too. Some women don't want to breastfeed at all, from the very beginning, without trying. It is their rights.

If a girl comes on this forum right now and says I don't want to breatfeed, I find it awful, bla bla bla. My boobs, my body, bla bla bla.

She will be set on fire alive.
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Old 10.09.2010, 17:47
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Re: Breast feeding

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Actually, not really. I went through only resent papers and was myself surprised at how few supporting papers there were. I would say it's 50/50 or even 60/40 in benefit of the "no-correlation" papers.

So the above samples of links on obesity (2 against correlation, 1 in favour of) pretty much sums up what I found doing a 10 minutes research on a medical papers database.

Tilia, you might have done 10 minutes research, but I've done 25 years, and ended up specialising in Pediatrics. I can assure you, and all those reading this, that the evidence is strong.

Let me ask you this. If the evidence is for the benefits of breastfeeding is so weak, why does every Pediatric medical body in the world, in addition to most governments and international bodies, spend so much time and money dedicated to supporting breastfeeding? Are all these experts wrong, whilst you are correct? What is your explanation for this?
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Old 10.09.2010, 17:51
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Re: Breast feeding

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MusicChick, if it was that simple, if I was just having a hard time to breastfeed, I would jump on your offer.

But reality is more complicated. And lets assume I can breastfeed but I don't want. It should be ok too. Some women don't want to breastfeed at all, from the very beginning, without trying. It is their rights.

If a girl comes on this forum right now and says I don't want to breatfeed, I find it awful, bla bla bla. My boobs, my body, bla bla bla.

She will be set on fire alive.
Why wouldn't it be ok not to nurse? Of course it is ok, if it is ok with you. I sense a provocation...What if scenario...If you think it is ok, that should completely sufice, why do you need a gang of supporters in such a personal decision? I haven't seen any jumping here whatsoever, I actually see more vehement anti nursing sentiments here, somewhat...Nursing moms could feel bad, too, remember? It is their right to decide to nurse. Be happy with your decisions if you don't want to, but don't jump at the other camp at a hypothetical situation, people are just kindly sharing and stating data here and personal experience. Why dramatize it? This is a breastfeeding thread, so I would expect help and info promoting nursing, rather than don't talk about how you suceeded since I might feel bad tone. I am sorry it hasn't worked out for you, eventhough you probably dislike me feeling sorry for you. It's ok, we should be happy with our risks and decisions, parenting is not only about nursing, but about gazillions of other decisions, so let's save energy for those... cumbalaya and all

Hope your pregnancy is happily uneventful...
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  #210  
Old 10.09.2010, 17:59
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Re: Breast feeding

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Why wouldn't it be ok not to nurse? I sense a provocation...What if scenario...If you think it is ok, that should completely sufice, why do you need a gang of supporters in such a personal decision? I haven't seen any jumping here whatsoever, I actually see more vehement anti nursing sentiments here, somewhat...Nursing moms could feel bad, too, remember? It is their right to decide to nurse. Be happy with your decisions if you don't want to, but don't jump at the other camp at a hypothetical situation, people are just kindly sharing and stating data here and personal experience. Why dramatize it? This is a breastfeeding thread, so I would expect help and info promoting nursing, rather than don't talk about how you suceeded since I might feel bad tone. I am sorry it hasn't worked out for you, eventhough you probably dislike me feeling sorry for you. It's ok, we should be happy with our risks and decisions, parenting is not only about nursing, but about gazillions of other decisions, so let's save energy for those... cumbalaya and all

Hope your pregnancy is happily uneventful...
Thanks,

I actually don't want to come on pro-breastfeeders. I once tried to start a thread about non-breastfeeding, and it was merged here. That, I believe wasn't the best move because we should be able to have the 2 topics and discuss it without having one side coming on the other side and vice-versa.

I am not on you. I wanted to talk about a side of feeding and it comes out on this set of arguement, which isn't new.

I know how involved you are in the cause and I have a lot of respect for your commitment. But you do have to admit, if that girl came here today to tell what she dislike about breastfeeding, it will be a huge drama.

Not from you, you are too sweet and nice to say mean things but from plenty of other forumers, trolls....
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Old 10.09.2010, 18:09
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Re: Breast feeding

Seriously i think the issue here and nils main issue is that she is NOT disputing breast is best but what she is trying to say is that if for some reason she can't she doesn't want to be an outcast in society.

I agree the likely breast milk is going to be better than anything non natural - it's common sense really but whilst back in the 70's and 80's it wasn't frowned upon to bottle feed babies with formula, these days it is, due to the huge push for everyone to breast feed.

I already feel worried that in 13 weeks time I may not be able to and I think I'll be more embarrassed to get a bottle out in public than my breasts.
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Old 10.09.2010, 18:10
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Re: Breast feeding

Sorry, I'm totally jumping in here without meticulously reading all the previous posts, but wanted to add my two cents.

First, I'm not a mother, so I've never breastfed a child. I myself wasn't breastfed; I think my mother said her doctor discouraged it although it would've saved my parents a lot of money. I was a very robust and healthy child, as were my sister and brother: all very tall and athletic and no crazy allergies. My sister breastfed her first but not her twins because she was so run-down. All her kids are healthy and strong.

Breastfeeding seems almost like a luxury, especially when I read MusicChick's description of a 24-hour support team, and also when the majority of mothers around the world have to earn money to keep their families going. In CH, women don't get a decent amount of maternity leave, so I imagine breastfeeding after 3 months can be really stressful, and that affects the milk supply I imagine.

Every woman has to choose what is best for her and her child. I would like to try it if I have a baby, but I'd also bottle-feed so that his/her father could have bonding time as well. Also, what about stress? Can it be passed through the milk? I'm a kind of nervous and stressed out person prone to depression, so I'd be worried about breastfeeding for that reason. Other people take medication for different health issues, so that's probably a big factor too. I also wonder about the need for women to kind of 'take back' ownership of their bodies, and to reclaim their breasts as part of their sexuality? Is that an issue? Forgive my ignorance, it's because I haven't yet experienced this...
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  #213  
Old 10.09.2010, 18:31
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Re: Breast feeding

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Seriously i think the issue here and nils main issue is that she is NOT disputing breast is best but what she is trying to say is that if for some reason she can't she doesn't want to be an outcast in society.

I agree the likely breast milk is going to be better than anything non natural - it's common sense really but whilst back in the 70's and 80's it wasn't frowned upon to bottle feed babies with formula, these days it is, due to the huge push for everyone to breast feed.

I already feel worried that in 13 weeks time I may not be able to and I think I'll be more embarrassed to get a bottle out in public than my breasts.
Don't be so hard on yourself you'll be a great mom... anyway, who's to say that all those bottles women carry around aren't filled with breast milk? Shame on anyone who'd dare question you. Personally, if I ever breastfed, I'd still use a bottle in public due to my natural modesty
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Old 10.09.2010, 18:36
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Re: Breast feeding

Imagine the first woman in the world to try bottle feeding a baby. I reckon she found it harder than breast feeding. Especially when she realised it was with milk squirted out of a cow.

Fast forward to today, and it amazes me that, considering all the antibiotics and steroids and other chemicals they pump into cows, not to mention their feed, any parent would consider feeding their children with that rather than what nature intended before even trying. Its the most natural thing in the world, successfully practiced by mammals for millions of years, and certainly a lot more natural and easier than, say, fake tits.

Problem is, it's not so easy for someone to make money from it. Just ask Nestle.

Last edited by menace; 10.09.2010 at 18:46.
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Old 10.09.2010, 19:02
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Re: Breast feeding

Menace I am not entirely sure if I am correct here but women bottle feeding their babies are not using cows milk - cows milk is not recommended before one years old

Secondly is it best to let a baby starve if a mother can not breast feed? I have friends who had 3 month premature babies and were unable to get milk by expressing to feed them due to their situation and worry and stress. Those babies are now healthy and survived. Their bad mothers kept them alive by giving them the next best thing available, formula....
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Old 10.09.2010, 19:09
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Re: Breast feeding

3 month premature babies are certainly exceptional cases, I agree. And no, I wouldn't advocate starving a baby. I'm just saying, in the case of a normally born, healthy baby, thinking it's going to be hard before even trying, when it's the most natural and normal thing to happen in the world - it's a shame society is like that.

And the powdered milk? Where does it come from, do you think?
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Old 10.09.2010, 19:21
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Re: Breast feeding

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3 month premature babies are certainly exceptional cases, I agree. And no, I wouldn't advocate starving a baby. I'm just saying, in the case of a normally born, healthy baby, thinking it's going to be hard before even trying, when it's the most natural and normal thing to happen in the world - it's a shame society is like that.

And the powdered milk? Where does it come from, do you think?
I have every intention of breast feeding, I want to breast feed. But, I am not naive enough to expect I can, nobody should assume they can. My point on this thread is that there may be people reading this who for whatever reason could not breast feed and if they were to believe the comments on here then they would believe they were evil mothers.
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Old 10.09.2010, 19:27
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Re: Breast feeding

Glad to hear it. It's not usually that hard. Depends on the individual circumstance, I guess. Obviously if you can't, you can't. It's worth trying a bit though, if you don't get it right first time. I mean, it's not like your giving birth or anything
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Old 10.09.2010, 20:46
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Re: Breast feeding

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Imagine the first woman in the world to try bottle feeding a baby. I reckon she found it harder than breast feeding. Especially when she realised it was with milk squirted out of a cow.

Fast forward to today, and it amazes me that, considering all the antibiotics and steroids and other chemicals they pump into cows, not to mention their feed, any parent would consider feeding their children with that rather than what nature intended before even trying. Its the most natural thing in the world, successfully practiced by mammals for millions of years, and certainly a lot more natural and easier than, say, fake tits.

Problem is, it's not so easy for someone to make money from it. Just ask Nestle.
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3 month premature babies are certainly exceptional cases, I agree. And no, I wouldn't advocate starving a baby. I'm just saying, in the case of a normally born, healthy baby, thinking it's going to be hard before even trying, when it's the most natural and normal thing to happen in the world - it's a shame society is like that.

And the powdered milk? Where does it come from, do you think?
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Glad to hear it. It's not usually that hard. Depends on the individual circumstance, I guess. Obviously if you can't, you can't. It's worth trying a bit though, if you don't get it right first time. I mean, it's not like your giving birth or anything
What do you know about it? You just guess because you will never be able to know from experience. Instead to have such of a speach, you should sit back, listen, look around and learn before to pass judgement and comments on something you have no idea about.
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  #220  
Old 10.09.2010, 20:49
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Re: Breast feeding

That's a bit harsh nil. Men can know a lot about breast feeding if they have watched and helped their partner through it. They're granted never going to know how it feels or how painful it may be (like i have no idea) but they can also have the wish that their kids are breast fed if possible

Those hormones are really getting you eh
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