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  #61  
Old 26.03.2010, 21:59
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Re: Breast feeding

Not really. Your post just illustrate the point I have tried to make very well.


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Old 26.03.2010, 22:35
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Re: Breast feeding

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Not really. Your post just illustrate the point I have tried to make very well.
What is your point? My post stated medical fact disseminated by the WHO and other lactation specialists. Here's a quote from renowned paediatrician and lactation specialist Dr. Jack Newman (page 10 of his book The Ultimate Breastfeeding Book of Answers:
"...infant formulas are not second best to breastfeeding. Second best would be the mother's own milk, pumped or expressed, and fed to her baby (perhaps with a cup or tube). This is only second best because the value of breastfeeding includes such benefits as the development of the baby's jaw and facial muscles as he nurses at the breast, and the transfer of germs back and forth between the mother and the baby, which helps protect the baby against infection and allergies, is more likely to occur when the mother and baby are together, touching, skin to skin and mouth to breast. [...] The third feeding suggestion on WHO's list is donated milk from a breatmilk bank. Only if that is also unavailable would artificial baby-milk feedings be used -the fourth best solution"
I want to make a point here though: I am not anti-parents who feed formula. I wish the parents who went the formula route did so because they decided to do so out of "informed choice" and not because they didn't get the support they deserved to successfully breastfeed and have the breastfeeding relationship THEY want. Each one of us is different. Each baby is different, each family. Each breastfeeding relationship different. Some mothers can stay home, others have to return to work. We're different and our circumstances are different. But women are all made to be able to breastfeed, we just have to LEARN how to do it (the innate ability is there to learn, but it does have to be learned), for some reason, many of us think we "don't have enough milk" or "my baby rejected my milk" or whatever, when that is rarely (I say rarely because it *can* happen) the case.

In any event.. some mothers breastfeed one way, others another, that's part of making each one of us human, yet unique and beautiful creatures. No one way is better than another way.

As for guilt.. I really don't like that women are made to feel guilty for formula feeding. In a society where it's the "norm" women do as their peers, so guilt should not be a part of it. But really, we should be angry that we live in a society where formula is seen as the "normal" infant food. Breastmilk is normal and made for babies. That said, why is it ok to make parents feel guilty about smoking near their children, or putting them in the car without a car seat, or, or, or, but it's not okay for them to feel guilty about how they feed their infants? Let me reiterate though: as society stands, they should not feel guilty and should not be made to feel guilty. If we lived in a world where every woman learned how to breastfeed and knew that formula was dangerous, and no one fed formula yadda yadda, then maybe it'd be okay to make women feel guilty. But we don't. So women shouldn't.
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Old 26.03.2010, 22:40
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Re: Breast feeding

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Breastmilk banks exist in many countries and yes, the donors are screened. It is interesting that you automatically assume that another woman's milk would be dangerous and that formula would be perfectly safe. Do you know that formula recalls are quite common because it gets contaminated with bacteria or because of some production line fault it ends up having too much iron or salt or too little of important nutrients?
HIV can certainly be transmitted through breast milk. Proper screening would need to be done for other diseases such as hepatitis, since people can be carriers and never know.
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The overwhelming majority of women, with very few exceptions, can produce enough milk if they adopt the right technique and get adequate support. It was general complacancy about formula that brought us to where we are now -- an apathetic attitude to breastfeeding and complacancy about breastmilk substitutes.
So what would you suggest then? I b'fed my son exclusively for at least 6 months and 2 feeds a day for 2 years. For my daughter, demand doesn't meet supply.
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Old 26.03.2010, 22:44
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Re: Breast feeding

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I have not personally encountered anyone forcing women to breastfeed at a gunpoint. 'Pro-breasters', as you call them, have few financial incentives to aggressively promote breastfeeding. Compared to Nestle, for example.
Maybe they do have a business interest, but I don't recall anyone pointing a gun at my wife either.

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Your wife had a bad and unprofessional lactation consultant. My view is that it is not any individual woman's fault if breastfeeding fails, but it is a pity that it happens so often.
Doubtless she wasn't good. But I would add that the level of support available for breastfeeding is tantamount to the way creationism is taught in some places - i.e. it is the only true path.

The UK is a good example, where if you fail at breast feeding, you are left on your own and excluded.
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Old 26.03.2010, 23:02
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Re: Breast feeding

To be honest in the UK I was left on my own - think that goes for whether you want to breastfeed or bottle feed, the service is overstretched. I was amazed that I was offered no advice on how to feed my baby either before or after I gave birth (afterwards I needed to express as baby was in SCBU and just tried to figure it out myself (ouch) until the next day a kind student midwife rescued me).

When my baby was 3 weeks old and well enough I wanted to be able to breast feed her (she was tube fed), the oh so kind lactation expert told me "it's not baby dear it's you" charming. No wonder so many women give up.

However to me it was the only thing I'd ever known was definitely part of my parenting plan and 10 months later I am very pleased that I stuck it out and that I was able to.

I would always encourage anyone who was interested in bfing, and give them advice or tips, but I wouldn't ever pressure or criticise someone who doesn't want to. Contrarily I have had plenty of "still breastfeeding" and "of course you'll stop now you're pregnant" comments. Ugh.
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Old 26.03.2010, 23:12
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Re: Breast feeding

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To be honest in the UK I was left on my own - think that goes for whether you want to breastfeed or bottle feed, the service is overstretched. I was amazed that I was offered no advice on how to feed my baby either before or after I gave birth (afterwards I needed to express as baby was in SCBU and just tried to figure it out myself (ouch) until the next day a kind student midwife rescued me).

When my baby was 3 weeks old and well enough I wanted to be able to breast feed her (she was tube fed), the oh so kind lactation expert told me "it's not baby dear it's you" charming. No wonder so many women give up.

However to me it was the only thing I'd ever known was definitely part of my parenting plan and 10 months later I am very pleased that I stuck it out and that I was able to.

I would always encourage anyone who was interested in bfing, and give them advice or tips, but I wouldn't ever pressure or criticise someone who doesn't want to. Contrarily I have had plenty of "still breastfeeding" and "of course you'll stop now you're pregnant" comments. Ugh.
During the first week of breastfeeding, every day someone would come in and tell me something different I fed my first baby without problems. With my second I was given nipple shields - my baby just bit them even harder.
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Old 26.03.2010, 23:27
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Re: Breast feeding

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During the first week of breastfeeding, every day someone would come in and tell me something different I fed my first baby without problems. With my second I was given nipple shields - my baby just bit them even harder.
Thankfully I was warned away from nipple shields.

I'm most likely going to be giving birth in France (just found out my international insurance will cover diddly squat in Switzerland) and have been told they don't encourage bfing, hopefully this baby will be healthy and I won't have to fight my corner.
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Old 27.03.2010, 00:33
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Re: Breast feeding

My views on breastfeeding after having 2 children:
Nobody should judge a woman and each woman should do what she thinks is best for her and her baby regardless of what is told by outside parties.
I wasn't breastfed and my health is strong.
There is too much emphasis on breastfeeding and formula milk is almost as good. At least you know how much the baby is drinking.
My experience breastfeeding was owful. Both my children lost weight while I was breastfeeding them. Breastfeeding is painful and a great hassle. For me formula took a lot of stress and uncertainty out of my life. So I had the strength and sanity to concentrate on looking after my babies.
There is such great expectation on women when it comes to maternity issues that causes guilt from the moment one is pregnant. I think is not fair that others implicitly judge women of these issues. It will take many generations before women stop feeling guilty about all aspects of maternity. In many cases because there is always someone who gives you their opinion without being requested.
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Old 27.03.2010, 00:41
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Re: Breast feeding

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http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/R...42521000&ty=st



6 months, wow I thought a couple of weeks was the normal order of play.
Anyway there is a roadshow touring round Switzerland telling and hopefully(?) showing people all about the pleasures and necessity of breast feeding.
On a purely blokey point, its weird how unsexual breast feeding is, I mean all the necessary parts are there, breasts, nudity, female, sucking..but stick em together with a baby and its pretty meh!!
Yeah breastfeeding is totally better for the baby now and in the longrun I remember reading about that. No way a couple of week? LOL! No at least for the first few months is best. I know I was breastfed and I plan to breastfeed my kids.

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I am pro-breastfeeding too. I didn't think I would be but getting downstairs to make up to make a bottle in the early hours (and hearing him screaming) was far more difficult than bringing him in bed with me. I continued until my son was around 2 years and stopped only to try to get pregnant again.

I took as long as I needed to express milk at work, but legally you can take twice your normal lunch break.
Yeah breastfeeding is much easier and cheaper! Not to mention the health benefits for the baby.

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And even longer... I was at an NCT baby and toddler coffee morning once, when (as usual) the subject of breastfeeding came up. We were talking about how food tastes are passed on in the milk, and one woman piped up with: "Oh yes, it's definitely true! There was one time when Jemima was feeding, and she stopped to say 'Mummy, you've eaten pineapple this morning, haven't you?' And she was round a friend's house so she hadn't seen me, it was just the taste."

The rest of us - all supposedly enlightened, educated pro-breastfeeding NCTers - all gaped at her, all thinking exactly the same thing: "You're breastfeeding a child old enough to produce a sentence like that?!!'
kodokan
Yeah now I think breastfeeding past 2 yrs old is wierd!


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not that i have any experience to add about breast feeding but did anyone watch the documentary on Channel 4 the other week called 'Other Peoples Breast Milk' it was certainly an eye opener - showed a mother feeding her 5 & 7 year old kids - showed women in a group breast feeding each others babies, interviewed a mother and her childs wet nurse in the states and also interview an old guy who drank breast milk every day (he ordered it off the internet) and he claimed it cured him of his prostate cancer.

I found the programme quite shocking in parts and I certainly found mothers feeding other peoples babies while the babies mother watched quite unusual - I think if I had a baby I wouldn't want another person to breast feed

did anyone else see it?

Nicky
Yeah it is totally possible for other people to breastfeed other people's babies. That is wierd about the grown man drinking breast milk OMG! LOL! I just don't see how a mother can breastfeed a 5 & 7 yr old especially a boy!

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The first statement -- absolutely not true. Formula is only an attempt to emulate breastmilk but breastmilk is a moving target, so formula can and will never be its 100% equivalent. The only fact here is that most formula-fed children in the West are well-nourished and develop normally.

I will not go into any discussion on the potential adverse long-term effects of its use. Let us just say that formula-fed children are 'doing fine' -- but this presumes that an accident such as recent formula contamination in China can not happen. Actually, formula is quite often recalled from shops even in the West, for various reasons and this is also a risk one needs to take into account.

In my view, you can not be pro-breastfeeding without being contra-bottlefeeding at the same time. I think that most women breastfeed because they believe that formula is not good for their children. Otherwise, why would they bother? But if 'contra-bottlefeeding' means 'forcing others to breastfeed', then I agree, no one should be made to feel guilty for not breastfeeding as long as they made an informed choice. Which, I may add, is sadly often not the case.
Yeah nothing can 100% imitate what nature makes. And I agree about so many formula recals and all kinds of crazy stuff that's why I say breastfeeding is better except in cases where the mother literally cannot make enough milk.

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I was one of those people who said "No child of mine will have one of those things permanently sticking out of his mouth"...

...until I had a child. Suddenly they became the best invention since sliced bread. I have to say that we quickly established a rule that he was allowed to have it at bedtime and if he is sick (and on occasion if he is in danger of kicking off with a Level 10 tantrum in the middle of Migros) but in those early days it was brilliant. It even became known in our house as "the plug".
Yeah I see nothing wrong with pacifiers, it's better than babies sucking on baby bottles for soothing comfort drinking when they are not hungry. Pacifiers can be a God-send!

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I am pro-breastfeeding too. I didn't think I would be but getting downstairs to make up to make a bottle in the early hours (and hearing him screaming) was far more difficult than bringing him in bed with me. I continued until my son was around 2 years and stopped only to try to get pregnant again.

I took as long as I needed to express milk at work, but legally you can take twice your normal lunch break.
Yeah it is amazing how nature makes it so that a breastfeeding mom can't get pregnant like a natural birth control.

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Old 27.03.2010, 01:14
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Re: Breast feeding

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So what would you suggest then? I b'fed my son exclusively for at least 6 months and 2 feeds a day for 2 years. For my daughter, demand doesn't meet supply.
You mean you don't have enough? I went through a period of decreased lactation since hormons were all over the place, it is very very normal and common. I managed to double the lactation and had too much after a couple of weeks, it was not that difficult. You just have to nurse every hour, for a couple of days and nights (or weeks, depends on your hormonal resonse). It's the nerves that make it really difficult. Stress, lack of sleep, water and protein make increasing lactation difficult. If you realize that the hormonal response works very very well, just like tears mechanism in your eyes, it gets easier. You can completely relactate as well, after you stop nursing. I had a friend who had to stop for cancer treatment and succesfully relactated when she was cancer free. Adoptive parents can lactate. It is a question of determination and good technique. If there is enough demand, there is supply. One just has to be always one step ahead with offering in order to activate the demand.

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but why make a little baby stay hungry (esp. a newborn?) instead of giving a bit of formula? that just seems cruel.
Because the bitch is in the way the formula is given to newborns in hospital. Too often it is a bottle, nipple confusion almost sure for a lot of babes. I do not know so many nurses who would bother with a syringe, or an elaborate tube that is stuck to a new mom's boob and who would actually advise well. It was not a formula given to my kid when she was born, I had nurses pushing sugar and water, killing any nursing attempts, for three days, before I told them to stuff it. There is a humongous pressure on new moms by intimidating and lact-wise uneducated staff which honestly does not care about nursing (in my experience) but about serious health matters concerning moms and babies (understandable). C section makes nursing more difficult, one also starts lactating later than after a normal vaginal birth.

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Thankfully I was warned away from nipple shields.

I'm most likely going to be giving birth in France (just found out my international insurance will cover diddly squat in Switzerland) and have been told they don't encourage bfing, hopefully this baby will be healthy and I won't have to fight my corner.
It depends on a hospital. Mine in CH was absolutely attrocious, discouraged me and gave me and other few moms I know a horrific advice. I had to go in there to help out a fellow mom since they were saying you do not need to nurse the first three days, the baby is not interested anyway. Ugh. I was very fortunate myself to be advised quite secretly by an old nurse's aid, she was a gem. And to have my home lact specialists on call.

Good for you being wise with nipple shields, they suck big time.

I hope that these days nobody disagrees that nursing is the absolute best and most normal way to take care of babies. If it does not work is completely another question. If somebody has complexes due to failed nursing, don't mix that up with how good BM is for babes. Formula does not kill (well, hopefully not in these lands as oposed to China), is the second best choice, so moms who failed should not feel bad, we can't be the best in everything we do, can we. So what, one failed. I managed to nurse (still do) and I am proud of it since it was a long battle, it was not easy at all, blah blah, all I care for is my little one benefiting and she surelly is..I don't care if others don't nurse, we all all trying our best. We were fighting other issues. Am I gona go bash those who succeeded in those issues or request to have people tip toe diplomatically around me? No.

Back home it is illegal to advertize formula in public visible places. No posters in your ped office, no ped dares to push formula on you when you are nursing, unlike what happened to me. Our ped here before we left him kept pushing me to "finally introduce the bottle " at three months. What the heck? Back home you are not allowed to be bugged by free samples delivered to your mailbox (unlike here, bastids) or any other pressures. Formula business is a horendously successful business, expensive and if one company gets a loyal customer, it's for a long time and big bucks. So, it is obvious, why all the unethical crappy push. It is a shame companies are making money on nervous momies. Female body is a phenomenally well working machine, nursing is one of the things that most people should manage just fine if they have the knowledge, appropriate support and good technique. I read somewhere it is 2% that cannot nurse for medical reasons, the rest is poor technique. There should be a lot more support to help with the technique, since everyone is so different and the technique varies by mom and kid.
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Old 27.03.2010, 01:22
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Re: Breast feeding

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That's the other option that some of us forget about. That you can express your milk, keep it for about 12hrs in the proper temperature. I know of a few mothers who did that and it worked pretty well until their babies were weaned properly.
Exactly!

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AH yes....those 'no child of mine...things'...

I aspire to the wisdom of my grandmother. She just turned 89, has twelve children (all still alive), 42 grandchildren (only one lost to SIDS about 30 years ago), more than 20 great grandchildren....

And I have NEVER heard her dish out parenting advice...even when directly asked, she tends to shrug in an old-lady kind of way...a mixture of 'all kids are different' and 'if I told you you'd still do it your way anyway!'...
That's another point too, that breastfed babies are much less likely to die from SIDS too.

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Breastmilk banks exist in many countries and yes, the donors are screened. It is interesting that you automatically assume that another woman's milk would be dangerous and that formula would be perfectly safe. Do you know that formula recalls are quite common because it gets contaminated with bacteria or because of some production line fault it ends up having too much iron or salt or too little of important nutrients?

The overwhelming majority of women, with very few exceptions, can produce enough milk if they adopt the right technique and get adequate support. It was general complacancy about formula that brought us to where we are now -- an apathetic attitude to breastfeeding and complacancy about breastmilk substitutes.

Many women switch to formula because they are successfully persuaded by formula companies that breastmilk is only marginally better, if at all. Just look at their advertisements -- it is all about how great their product is and the message about WHO recommendations on exclusive breastfeeding is written in tiny print and I would guess that it gets effectively lost in the process.
Some mothers actually do think formula is better for the babies, especially young mothers.

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What - no microwaves available?
LOL! You can't microwave baby milk.

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I rejected my mother's milk and was weaned on Carnation Milk (Evaporated Milk). Maybe I can use that as my excuse for my behavioural problems
Yeah you seem just like the sort of baby who would do that! LOLO!
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Old 27.03.2010, 02:22
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Re: Breast feeding

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What - no microwaves available?
If I can choose to nuke stuff for a baby and not nuke stuff for a baby, I will not nuke. Especially plastic. One the many lovely thing about nursing is not having to leave bed, aaaaah.

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Really? Do you have evidence for this?
Uhm. I do have evidence but will not disclose her name online, she is still too young.

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Oh, but they are made to feel guilty and failures by La Leche et al.
Hmm..I actually find this comment pretty inflammatory.

Why do I think so? I do not think moms listen to much. They are busy processing stuff that they went through. They do not need anyone to make them feel guilty about anything, in fact, they manage it themselves, they feel guilty if they fail to nurse, to give birth naturally, etc. It is too bad, should not be this way, but in my experience it is often this way. Just a simple fact natural birth is the best should not make them feel incompetent, but moms often do, hormons don't help, too. I felt guilty about C-section, not because somebody made me feel guilty but because I was not in shape to take care of my kid immediately which sucked. It is the best to give birth naturally, everyone knows it, your body is back in shape within a few hours, your normal hormonal responses are working, womb is shrinking, milk is cooking, etc..C-section is an operation, with its risks. In my opinion, it is often avoidable, mine was if I was not overdosed with epi, it was a bad, overassisted over intervened medical situation, far from anything natural, overbooked undestaffed unprofessional ward, pushing me to lay on my back constantly, etc. I did not feel too good about it afterwards, understandably. But do I need to walk around and tell everyone to shut up around natural birth? No. Do I feel forever incompetent? Of course not. I should have found out more before delivery and shouldn't have relied on a generally pretty mediocre local hospital. I think people should promote natural birth, based on my own experience.

I don't think moms should feel incompetent if they fail nursing. But if one fails, there is no point to try to feel better by bashing LLL. They do what they can to spread the word about how benefitial nursing is, if they happen to have some people with unprofessional approach, too bad, but those are everywhere, aren't they..

It's too bad you did not have a good lactation consultant. There are many crappy ones. If one wants to nurse, one should actually not rely in this matter on the maternity ward but should come to the delivery with a pump, with homework done for quick trouble shooting and not hope that busy ward will have a very good person immediately available.

Ok, off my nursing soap box, in fact, I am really not one of the boob crazy folks, haha..
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Old 27.03.2010, 14:14
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Re: Breast feeding

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...i agree- i know plenty of people who didn't breastfeed, for whatever reason, and have faced judgement by others because of it...
It is interesting how many people say that they have been judged or made to feel guilty about not breastfeeding. I actually have an opposite experience. Our society is overwhelmingly bottlefeeding-centred.

Breastfeeding is acceptable during the first months, but only if everything goes smoothly. As soon as the baby has 3 months, everybody expects you to switch completely to formula or at least supplement with some bottles. Dummies are an absolute norm, I do not know anybody in my circle whose children did not have to be weaned off these, usually when they were 3 or even older. While bottles and dummies are perfectly acceptable well into toddlerhood, the acceptability of breastfeeding diminishes quickly.
People conveniently forget that bottles and dummies are merely copies of the real thing.

If your baby is 6 months old and you are still breastfeeding, many people will be surprised and some will consider that you are making some sort of a useless point or are just plain weird. If, god forbid, you continue to nurse into the baby's second year, you will find plenty of people who will be entirely hostile, some of whom will think that you are engaging in some sort of child abuse.

Breastfeeding is along the way blamed for absolutely every single hiccup -- if the baby does not gain enough, if she is cranky, if she does not sleep enough, if you do not get enough sleep, are tired or anaemic or sick. The answer to every single problem is the same -- why bother, just give a bottle.
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Old 28.03.2010, 09:39
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Re: Breast feeding

Title:Breastfeeding Older ChildrenPublished:1st December 2009ISBN:978-1-85343-9Price:£17.95 | $34.50Breastfeeding is a globally recognized imperative for the preservation of infant health, and governments around the world have introduced breastfeeding promotion measures. While initiation rates have improved, duration rates at a few weeks or months after birth still lag behind the World Health Organization’s recommendation that breastfeeding - for all children, in both developed and developing worlds - should continue for at least two years. Behind the figures, there is however an inverse reality. Today, increasing numbers of women in the industrialized world challenge social convention and breastfeed their children well beyond WHO guidelines. How widespread is this surprising, many would say shocking, phenomenon? Is it Nature’s way or an unhealthy practice? Do mothers prolong breastfeeding for their own pleasure? Is it, as some say, a form of sexual abuse? Do overly controlling women coerce children into continuing because they wish their children to remain dependent, or are they meeting an innate child need? Does long-term breastfeeding impact negatively on child physical and emotional health, or does it have a positive effect? Do mothers pay a price? How does the practice affect the family, and the couple relationship? Are breasts intended for infant feeding or for sexual pleasure? How and when did early weaning become established practice in the western world? Is sustained breastfeeding a reversion to a pre-feminist state, or is it a truly feminist issue? Drawing on child development theories and neuroscience research, archaeological findings and anthropological opinion, this book, explores the myths and reality surrounding this taboo practice to answer these and many other questions. In extracts from questionnaires, we also hear directly from mothers, fathers and the children themselves. Thought-provoking and challenging, this well-researched but thoroughly accessible book will appeal to all concerned with infant feeding and child health, as well as those with an interest in prehistory and the origins of western culture.
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Old 28.03.2010, 19:19
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Re: Breast feeding

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My views on breastfeeding after having 2 children:
Nobody should judge a woman and each woman should do what she thinks is best for her and her baby regardless of what is told by outside parties.
I wasn't breastfed and my health is strong.
There is such great expectation on women when it comes to maternity issues that causes guilt from the moment one is pregnant. I think is not fair that others implicitly judge women of these issues. It will take many generations before women stop feeling guilty about all aspects of maternity. In many cases because there is always someone who gives you their opinion without being requested.
I am a completely selfish person. When my were infants I was more than happy to get rid of them and very soon after their birth I went back to working full time. Both would not have been possible had I been breastfeeding. And no, I absolutely didn't and don't feel like a milking cow which is why the idea of breast pumps and freezing milk never even crossed my mind. Fortunately I live in western civilization that made all this possible.
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Old 28.03.2010, 21:06
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Re: Breast feeding

who here is willing to dispute the fact that beast milk is biologically the preferred food for infancy? the majority of women do have breast that produce milk yes? we also have hungry babies that need said milk yes?
its a simple food chain to sustain the human body outside the womb state.

who here is willing to dispute the fact that there are side benefits to breast feeding for both the child and the mother (in varying degrees) e.g., bonding, ease, auto-immune health, etc.? it has short and long term benefits beyond simply feeding the human body.

life in the modern western world seems to make a natural and necessary feeding system with benefits into something that can be - and often is - inconvenient and cumbersome to achieve for working mothers.

and, no - non of us have to do the natural thing. its a choice that all women have the right to make.

and, no - not all of us are able to achieve the optimum amount of breast feeding time for one child at the expense of feeding our other children who are already on solids and need us to work for their food.

still, all things considered my goal as a mother and as a grandmother for that matter, was/is to ensure that i am doing everything possible to give my babies what they need to sustain themselves throughout their lives.

we all want what is best for the children first and foremost yes?

if its a matter of convenience may i suggest that having children is one of the most inconvenient and at times painful past time of all. as witnessed in another recent thread here on the board - try coping with a constipated baby...

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I am a completely selfish person. When my were infants I was more than happy to get rid of them and very soon after their birth I went back to working full time. Both would not have been possible had I been breastfeeding. And no, I absolutely didn't and don't feel like a milking cow which is why the idea of breast pumps and freezing milk never even crossed my mind. Fortunately I live in western civilization that made all this possible.

my daughter works full time. she bought a deep freezer and started pumping and storing her milk from the beginning - as soon as it came in. she stock piled enough to feed her baby breast milk in her absence. she carried the pump to work and pumped in the bathroom to make sure her breast milk continued. her baby stopped breastfeeding - except for a good night snack - on her own at 8 months. my daughter then passed the pumping machine on to one of her friends who was giving birth shortly.

the point is that the baby is receiving the milk and the benefits of the milk. not that the mother - for whatever reason - is doing the feeding.

then again - wasn't there a time when wet nursing was common?

Last edited by vwild1; 31.03.2010 at 04:49. Reason: merged 2 successive posts into 1
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  #77  
Old 29.03.2010, 03:06
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Re: Breast feeding

It is such a very personal experience.

I lost my milk when my daughter was 4 months old. I felt guilty to not be able to do more. But When I found out how easier and confortable bottle feeding was for me, I felt better.

Breastfeeding didn't make me lose weight but I lost a lot of my health. I was constantly sick and exausted, my iron level was super low.

My daughter didn't get a ''better'' protection from the milk. She has been sick so often.

I don't even talk about my non-existant breast...

Honestly, I am happy I did breastfeed my daughter as much as I could. But I know I did it because of the society pressure. If it was to do it again, I won't. I got to much stress and pain and problem from it.
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Old 29.03.2010, 08:09
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Re: Breast feeding

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It is such a very personal experience.

I lost my milk when my daughter was 4 months old. I felt guilty to not be able to do more. But When I found out how easier and confortable bottle feeding was for me, I felt better.

Breastfeeding didn't make me lose weight but I lost a lot of my health. I was constantly sick and exausted, my iron level was super low.

My daughter didn't get a ''better'' protection from the milk. She has been sick so often.

I don't even talk about my non-existant breast...

Honestly, I am happy I did breastfeed my daughter as much as I could. But I know I did it because of the society pressure. If it was to do it again, I won't. I got to much stress and pain and problem from it.
Good for you nursing your little one for four months. You gave her a fantastic head start. There are many "hidden" benefits, special antibodies protecting against allergies, brain acids that boost your kiddo's intellect big time (last time I read up on it it was 7 points of IQ), etc. It might seem that she didn't benefit health wise, but they always do, even if they have the normal baby's infections, etc. Formula babies are easily overfed in some cases, too, which later on leads to obesity in life.

4 months is a normal time to have troubles, most people go through lactation crisis, I did too. That's because the demand changes and the supply is not boostered, quite often. Girls especially are not bit eaters, I had to always pump right after she ate in order to empty my breast, or else my milk would have dissappeared completely too. If one leaves milk in, it sends a strong signal to the body to lower the production, the hormons start lowering the production quite quickly.

We do not know how to read the babies cues, so often, or the kids are so happy one would not realize they really need to eat more often. To breastfeed successfully through this time is to think a couple of days, weeks ahead. If the baby does not eat a lot one day, one has to make sure to offer a lot next day, or pump after every feeding. Demand equals supply, with the exception of distracted babies, or those who are too tired (they get tired of nursing when there is not much to suck out, that's why the pump is so important) or bored to empty the breast.

Ook, I don't want to preach. I think you did a wonderful job nursing your little one for that long. Healthwise, for you, it can get demanding, ton of protein, sleep, water, vitamin supplements did the trick for me. And I am glad my breast cancer chances are a lot lower, too, after having nursed.

Just threw it out here in case somebody else is going through the major 4mo benchmark in nursing. Man, I should start a lactation agency too, haha...I was a pain in the butt trying to figure out all these things mostly on my own..
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Old 29.03.2010, 10:26
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Re: Breast feeding

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The UK is a good example, where if you fail at breast feeding, you are left on your own and excluded.
To be honest in the UK I was left on my own - think that goes for whether you want to breastfeed or bottle feed, the service is overstretched. I was amazed that I was offered no advice on how to feed my baby either before or after I gave birth (afterwards I needed to express as baby was in SCBU and just tried to figure it out myself (ouch) until the next day a kind student midwife rescued me).
Fair enough, that was your experience. The source for my “claim” was a (NHS) nurse who had two children. The first bottle fed, the second breast. She told me that the current NHS policy was to ignore bottle feeders. So much so, that (if I recall correctly) they are not even allowed to hand information out about it (bottle feeding).

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Oh, but they are made to feel guilty and failures by La Leche et al. I would even reverse your comment and say that pro-breasters tend to be as sympathetic and informed (of people's reasons for using bottles) as pro-lifers in my experience.
Hmm..I actually find this comment pretty inflammatory.
Sorry you found it inflammatory – it was not meant to be.

You yourself stated that women do a good job of beating themselves up on this topic without the help of others. In that case how would you feel if someone came along and told you how good breast feeding is and bad bottle feeding is, if your child was screaming all night and every night, your paediatrician was worried about your child gaining weight and to top it all your nipples were sore?

The issue for me is that while La Leche et al may have good intentions, their messages just tend to twist the knife in further for those who’ve gone with the bottle.

Another view: how would you feel if someone came along a mentioned that you got a natural bond with your child through breast feeding, better nutrition, no contamination risk (did someone mention product recalls?), no health risks from sterilisation etc.? If you were not feeling guilty before, then you most likely would be after.

Another perspective: speaking from a nutrition education (MSc), I fully agree that breast is indeed best. What mother would not want to do it? So then to have folks say, “as long as it is an informed choice” is insulting. If given the choice many women that I know, who used bottles, would have loved the opportunity to breast feed.

Finally: the message from La Leche and pro-breast feeders is often (and read the posts on this thread for the evidence) that if you try hard enough it will all be OK. The inverse is therefore if you bottle feed you didn't try hard enough. How is that not a massive FAIL message?

If you then factor in an “informed” choice to use a bottle, well that must just be a MEGA FAIL…
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Last edited by Carlos R; 29.03.2010 at 10:35. Reason: Quoting gone funny and now fixed
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Old 29.03.2010, 12:19
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Re: Breast feeding

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my daughter works full time. she bought a deep freezer and started pumping and storing her milk from the beginning - as soon as it came in. she stock piled enough to feed her baby breast milk in her absence. she carried the pump to work and pumped in the bathroom to make sure her breast milk continued. her baby stopped breastfeeding - except for a good night snack - on her own at 8 months. my daughter then passed the pumping machine on to one of her friends who was giving birth shortly.

the point is that the baby is receiving the milk and the benefits of the milk. not that the mother - for whatever reason - is doing the feeding.

then again - wasn't there a time when wet nursing was common?
I happy it worked out for your daughter. I don't feel inferior because it didn't work out for me.

There were times when people who could afford it had a wet nurse for their babies. I wonder why.
When I was born breastfeeding was considered unhealthy because the milk was contaminated by water and food pollution. One of my kids developed hay fever, so did one of my cousin's despite of having been breastfed. What I'm trying to say is that we should all have the choice because thankfully we live in a modern society where there are choices.

As far as the bonding is concerned, my kids and I have a very close, loving relationship, we trust and respect each other - so obviously bottle feeding did not do any damage in that respect.
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