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  #141  
Old 23.04.2010, 22:28
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Re: Breast feeding

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Regarding growth, MANY MANY doctors are using old charts -- charts based on FORMULA-fed babies (and freely given to them by big formula companies). Formula-fed babies grow differently from breastfed babies so the charts are different (WHO pages have BF charts). If a doctor uses a formula-chart, this means a breastfed baby can fall WAY OFF the chart. But that baby is probably perfectly healthy.
Sorry, I guess I didn't clarify enough. He lost 400g in about 2 weeks. So he was off the chart not simply due to the lack of a weight gain, but rather a large weight loss. He was also not sleeping as well as before and biting me - all despite the fact that I was still feeding him as much as he wanted ~ 2 hours or earlier if he seemed hungry - so that's why I think (in retrospect) that perhaps my supply got worse.

I didn't realize there were different charts. I don't know which one the doctor is using. After this weight loss incident, we started weighing our son daily and still plot his progress relative to the percentile chart from the CDC website. He noticeably plummeted off the chart around 4-4.5 months. Not sure if the CDC charts take breast-fed baby weights into account. I'll go check out the WHO one now.

Thanks for the advice! I didn't think that I'd need a breastfeeding consultant after I got the beginning part (which I thought was supposed to be the toughest) down, but I'll know better next time.
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  #142  
Old 23.04.2010, 22:43
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Re: Breast feeding

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I didn't realize there were different charts. I don't know which one the doctor is using.
In the UK (assuming it hasn't changed in the last 6 years) there are the charts at the back of the Red Record Book. These are nonsense for breastfed babies. Then there are something called 'thrive lines', which a very helpful, informed Health Visitor showed me once. They were acetate sheets which overlaid the Red Book charts, and they were MASSIVELY different.

The thrive lines are much more realistic for breastfed babies, and are the ones which really indicate to doctors that there's a problem.

For example, my exclusively-breastfed daughter was 4.25kg when born (about 9lbs 9oz, the monster) and on the 98th percentile line. She dropped to 3.85kg within the first week or so, as per usual, then climbed slowly up before stalling weight-wise from weeks 12-16. This dropped her through 4 percentile lines, down to below the 25th percentile. According to the thrive line acetates, she didn't have a problem that required any medical attention - according to the red book charts she should have been taken into care and hospitalised.

But my HV was totally relaxed about it. She knew my daughter from weekly baby massage classes, knew how relaxed but alert a baby she was, had seen me feed, etc. Whereas my first HV with my son was almost on the phone to Social Services when he dropped from 50th to 9th percentile from birth to 10 weeks. She was an older lady, who I'm sure meant well but was just misinformed about the charts she was tracking against.

Do they supply similar charts here, and anyone know how the data compares to the nonsense UK ones?
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  #143  
Old 23.04.2010, 22:54
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Re: Breast feeding

Yosemite, of course it is good to seek advice and opinions on the internet but please check with your doctor again before you do any substantial changes to your little babys diet.


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Thanks for the advice!

I guess I simply realized my supply was low too late, and then the doctor said we needed to supplement with formula to get my son back on the weight growth chart. My supply seemed really great in the beginning, so it was kind of a shock. His tummy appeared to empty pretty quickly, so I offered him the breast about every 2 hours. Shouldn't that have helped?

I'll look out for the supply drop next time and call in the breastfeeding consultant if I notice any problems.
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  #144  
Old 26.04.2010, 09:13
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Re: Breast feeding

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Sorry, I guess I didn't clarify enough. He lost 400g in about 2 weeks. So he was off the chart not simply due to the lack of a weight gain, but rather a large weight loss. He was also not sleeping as well as before and biting me - all despite the fact that I was still feeding him as much as he wanted ~ 2 hours or earlier if he seemed hungry - so that's why I think (in retrospect) that perhaps my supply got worse.
MusicChick and Erikssonco have given you some very good advice, so I will not repeat what they said except to reiterate that you do not just lose milk. There is no such thing as a 'milk failure'. Diminishing milk supply is sometimes caused by hormonal changes (usually due to hormonal contraceptives) or supplementing with formula/water/other liquids.

Since I suppose that we can rule these out in your case, I would blame the usual suspect for most breastfeeding problems -- bad latch. You mentioned a few posts before that your son was biting you and that your nipples were sore -- this definitely means that he did not latch properly. He lost weight because he did not get enough milk, not because you did not have enough milk. The duration and frequency of feeding has nothing to do with the quantity of milk that the baby takes. You basically have to make sure that the baby really suckles, not just sucks on the breast.

What probably happened to you is that, in the beginning, you produced a lot of milk so the baby was able to gain weight even by suckling very inefficiently. Once the engorgement passed and the baby had to work harder to get milk he could not do it because of the bad latch, became nervous because his tummy was empty, finally started losing weight and, because he was taking less and less milk, your milk supply diminished.

Your paediatrician gave you the worst possible advice: instead of fixing the latch, they advised you to supplement with formula.

Next time you will do fine if you fix this problem from the start. Here is an excellent link with videos showing a series of good and bat latches with advice on how to achieve the best possible latch: http://www.drjacknewman.com/video-clips.asp

Second time round is a lot easier, so don't worry, I am sure you will do fine.
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  #145  
Old 26.04.2010, 09:18
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Re: Breast feeding

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Yosemite, of course it is good to seek advice and opinions on the internet but please check with your doctor again before you do any substantial changes to your little babys diet.
What, the same doctor that advised her to switch to formula? Hmmm...
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  #146  
Old 06.05.2010, 12:46
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Re: Breast feeding

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I don't agree with that. In Switzerland we have plenty of help and ressources and support.
I just wanted to say I'm not talking about Switzerland, I'm talking about developed world "in general". And I'm not talking about "help". In fact, if a woman keeps getting interrupted with "help" from every person who comes into her hospital room, it'll do the exact opposite!

As for Switzerland, there is help and there are ressources. I think it is one of the countries in Europe with the most IBCLCs actually. That said, you have to know where to find the help and those ressources though (and going to your sage-femme/midwife or paediatrician might actually get you false info). Moreover, it varies from canton to canton, nevermind town to town. And if you are an expat and you don't speak the cantonal language, it's even harder to find those resources/help.

As for support in Switzerland... well, I'm not so sure. I haven't been here long enough to judge, but with only 4 months maternity leave (it takes longer for the breastfeeding relationship to really establish itself) and hospitals sponsored by Nestle, I'm not so sure.

In any event, we need SUPPORT. Which really means that breastmilk should be seen as the normal infant food. We shouldn't feel the need to cover up, we shouldn't feel the need to hide the fact that we are breastfeeding our one-year-old. We shouldn't hear comments like "you are STILL feeding" or "just switch to formula, it's so much easier".

The medical profession tries and tries and tries to make everything else in the human body work normally (normal kidney function, liver function, blood pressure, sexual function and on and on) but for some reason, the normal course of infant nutrition is not strived for, why?

If you cannot breastfeed and nothing IBCLCs has tried helps, fine. But if you choose not to because culture has taught you that it's: gross, hard, sexual, painful, etc. that's too bad, because it's not any of those things, it's normal!
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  #147  
Old 07.05.2010, 01:01
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Re: Breast feeding

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If you cannot breastfeed and nothing IBCLCs has tried helps, fine..
Fine for who, you? Who are we to judge...

While I absolutely agree with you on the ab/normality of nursing and how we view it and I think it is so very noble to promote bf, etc., imho it is rather counterproductive in the pro-nursing campaign for the "regular" folks to focus on the criticism of the society. The best lact agents I met were so far from giving lectures, judging, elaborating on the anthropological aspects and political agendas and shaming people into corners.
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  #148  
Old 07.05.2010, 01:14
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Re: Breast feeding

I breast fed one for two years and one for one year through cracked nipples, nipple shields (looked like little Mexican hats), breast pumps, breast abscesses. In the beginning I hated it then got hooked on it. One thing I know is that happy cows have good milk yields. If you are emotionally upset, dieting too hard or just physically exhausted the let down reflex can just fail.
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  #149  
Old 07.05.2010, 01:43
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Re: Breast feeding

Just like to say I rate this thread. Thank you all.

That's it, really. Apart from only 4 months maternity leave and Nestle sponsored hospitals is a disgrace.
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  #150  
Old 02.08.2010, 16:36
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Choosing not to breastfeed

Hello,

Puddycat got a great topic idea on the C-section thread!

So here it comes. After getting pregnant a woman might have to decide to keep the baby or not and at the end of the pregnancy, to go throw the labor or not.

When the baby is born, will he have to pass throw the circoncision or not? And there we go, how will we feed the baby? Breastmilk or Formula?

What if a woman doesn't want to breastfeed? Not because she can't, but just because she doesn't want to.

Discuss
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  #151  
Old 02.08.2010, 16:41
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Re: Breast feeding

Gosh...this parenthood thing is getting more complicated by the minute
I would breastfeed, even if it might be a bit painful and the beginning, it is good for the baby and for the mother.
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  #152  
Old 02.08.2010, 16:45
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Re: Breast feeding

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Gosh...this parenthood thing is getting more complicated by the minute
I would breastfeed, even if it might be a bit painful and the beginning, it is good for the baby and for the mother.
ok, but here is about NOT to breastfeed. You'll see when you have your little one how much pressure is put on you to do it anyway! (I don't know why they merge the thread since it is the opposite of each other...)
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  #153  
Old 02.08.2010, 16:50
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Re: Breast feeding

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You'll see when you have your little one how much pressure is put on you to do it anyway!
If it's gonna be all about you, best to not have a baby. There are a lot of pressures in taking care of a baby/child properly: health, welfare, education.

And no I am not talking about the physical pressures on your boobs.
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  #154  
Old 02.08.2010, 17:22
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Re: Breast feeding

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...
What if a woman doesn't want to breastfeed? Not because she can't, but just because she doesn't want to.

Discuss
See my comments about c-section.

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If it's gonna be all about you, best to not have a baby. There are a lot of pressures in taking care of a baby/child properly: health, welfare, education.
Hah - I knew I wasn't the only one who thought like this.
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  #155  
Old 02.08.2010, 17:46
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Re: Breast feeding

There are also developmental benefits to breastfeeding that, no matter how hard they try, formula companies cannot replicate. Research also show a link to obesity and formula feeding as the baby will just 'empty the bottle' whereas with breastfeeding the baby takes what it wants.....
so more than just immunity!!
6 months minimum and 1 year recommended.
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  #156  
Old 02.08.2010, 17:55
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Re: Breast feeding

If any of you have real problems breatfeeding I am an English IBCLC (certified lactation consultant) based in Zug - PM for information
Jan
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  #157  
Old 02.08.2010, 18:23
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Re: Breast feeding

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...6 months minimum and 1 year recommended.
Surely that should be 6 months minimum if possible
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  #158  
Old 02.08.2010, 19:02
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Re: Breast feeding

All this media now about breast is best etc... what about the poor mothers who for whatever reason can't breast feed? they read threads like this and must feel distraught that they are giving their babies nasty formula? I really wish all the do gooders would zip it sometimes and think about how people may feel if things haven't gone to plan for them

I plan to breast feed but I am certainly not going to take it for granted that I can, no end of problems may arise which means I can't. Am I then to be judged for not being able to? getting a bottle out in public and feeding the baby and receiving many disapproving looks and tuts?
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Old 02.08.2010, 21:32
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Re: Breast feeding

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All this media now about breast is best etc... what about the poor mothers who for whatever reason can't breast feed? they read threads like this and must feel distraught that they are giving their babies nasty formula? I really wish all the do gooders would zip it sometimes and think about how people may feel if things haven't gone to plan for them

I plan to breast feed but I am certainly not going to take it for granted that I can, no end of problems may arise which means I can't. Am I then to be judged for not being able to? getting a bottle out in public and feeding the baby and receiving many disapproving looks and tuts?
It's easy to judged when you are not in the situation...
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Old 02.08.2010, 23:42
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Re: Breast feeding

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It's easy to judged when you are not in the situation...
....especially easier if you are not the same gender.

Sorry, but I had to play that card this time.
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