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Old 08.02.2007, 19:54
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English father Swiss mum-Not Married

hi guys, this is my first post so go easy .

I've registered as the father of my 3 month old and now I am being asked to sign a contract that gives me equel guardianship rights as the mother. I have to pay 500 SFr for the privilage. I asked what I get for my money and I get a paper trail and a stamp.

If we were to split then the mother has automatic guardianship rights anyway. So what difference would it make? I'm hardly going to threaten court action over education choices etc...

Assuming we stay together and something happens to the mother then surely I as the father would have guardianship automatically. If a child has a father who is alive then who else would get the child?

What the hell do they need with 500 Sfr, thats a lot of paper?

I feel like I am getting told I have no choices because I am an unmarried auslander (people have been burned at the stake for less).
Please advise before heated discussions mean I need the damn contract.

Dan
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Old 08.02.2007, 20:09
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Re: English father Swiss mum-Not Married

Quote:
Assuming we stay together and something happens to the mother then surely I as the father would have guardianship automatically. If a child has a father who is alive then who else would get the child?
I have no clue about this subject but maybe grandparents?
I sure would like to know what this is all about...it sounds interesting Did you ask the same questions to the people/authority who want CHF500?
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Old 08.02.2007, 20:25
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Re: English father Swiss mum-Not Married

maybe grandparents could contest it but when I asked them this they said the father would in reality but it might be a hassle...?
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Old 08.02.2007, 20:34
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Re: English father Swiss mum-Not Married

Far be it from me to be critical BUT:

Isn't your child number 1 here? It's highly fashionable not to get married these days - blowed if I know why, especially with a child.

And you're already posing the question "If we were to split..." and "Assuming we stay together..."

Stop thinking about your wallet. Start thinking about your child - this is just the beginning you'll be paying for the next 21 year (and doubtless beyond). But surely you knew that...
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Old 08.02.2007, 20:36
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Re: English father Swiss mum-Not Married

AFAIK: you only get automatic guardianship if you are married or have "acknowledged" the child. If you don't, and something does happen to the mother, the authorities are obliged to check what's best for the child. Normally, what's best would be for the father to have guardianship. But alternatives may be looked into (foster, grandparents or other relations)...
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Old 08.02.2007, 20:57
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Re: English father Swiss mum-Not Married

Typical judgemental attitude of someone who likes to get on forum high horses... you make too many assumptions

"Isn't your child number 1 here? It's highly fashionable not to get married these days - blowed if I know why, especially with a child.

And you're already posing the question "If we were to split..." and "Assuming we stay together..."


whats this got to do with fashion. the only reason i'm talking about splitting and staying together is because everyone else is, in conjuction with this documentation that i am told i need to abide with to have rights. We are happily together.

You assume wrongly that I am worried about my wallet. Its nothing to do with that. I want to understand why I am being obligated to subscribe to a proceedure with no alternatives.

Anyway 500 SFr is a lot of money to pay for Swiss Admin. Especially when I am responsible financially for my family I want to know the benefit it brings. As yet no-one has been able to give me any.

Is this the kind of response i should expect from this forum?
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Old 08.02.2007, 21:24
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Re: English father Swiss mum-Not Married

Crumbs, I have acknowleged the child, I've signed that I am the father. This document is to receive equel rights regarding decisions of upbringing like religion, education etc. This doesn't exist in the UK for non married couples? I've never heard of it and my friends with kids arn't all married.

My question is really is there an alternative? By signing this, am I relinquishing my rights under European law as a British Citizen? It seems old fashioned to make the distinction based on a religious and traditional institution when we live in an age 'tollerent' of mixed beliefs. (although for cases where the father is irresponsible and selfish it might be necessary). Not all unmarried fathers fit this description however.
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Old 08.02.2007, 22:56
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Re: English father Swiss mum-Not Married

Richard usually knows these things, maybe he will post . I think your question is fair, sounds like the Swiss trying to make money out of a happy family occasion. Quite awful, really, when you think about it.
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Old 08.02.2007, 23:12
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Re: English father Swiss mum-Not Married

If you care enough about your partner to make a kid with her, then why not marry her?

Aren't you listed as the father on the birth certificate?

I think consulting an impartial lawyer might be your best move.
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Old 08.02.2007, 23:24
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Re: English father Swiss mum-Not Married

From what I've heard from firiends in a simlar position unmarried fathers have little or no rights over their own children without said piece of paper.
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Old 09.02.2007, 00:31
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Re: English father Swiss mum-Not Married

Sod it.. I think its easier and cheaper to go with the flow. I just don't like being bullied into things. I mean I could invest the 500 in schoolbooks or play-doh... doh! Or pay a laywer and still have to pay 500 to the city. Looks like the little tinker will have to make do with mud, at least its clean round here.

Its sometimes funny when I question things here in Switz. Like everyone reacts like its the first time anyone has asked the question... or asked a question.. but it works... practically speaking of course it works. Like discrimination works for the people who are doing the discriminating. (OK - so thats a bit heavy for all this crap but I've just been speaking to my missus about job ad's in Switz and the fact its not illegal to say "girl under 26" or for all intense and purposes no gays will be considered or for that matter Shri-Lankans only apply (although this one prob won't be found in Glarus). It doesnt matter its still discriminatory. Sure this has been done to death on this forum. I'm new so i'll shut up for now..
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Old 09.02.2007, 00:36
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Re: English father Swiss mum-Not Married

Quote:
It doesnt matter its still discriminatory. Sure this has been done to death on this forum. I'm new so i'll shut up for now..
Done to death, and then some.
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Old 09.02.2007, 00:46
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Re: English father Swiss mum-Not Married

yea, thought as much, gotta be a hot one for some folks. thing is its fair enough if people are fair enough and generally in this country they are and at least its honest (to say we are looking for a young blonde female with good allround skills - or something is prob approachingthe truth for most boss's) . there is plenty hypocrisy in the UK system re. equel opportunities bandwaggon. some people do good work and some people just use as a platform to shout around and point fingers blah blah.

wheres patsy gone with her assumptively powdered nose??? prob in the loo... and she's got the plonk.. rocket fuel darling.. rocketfuel
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Old 09.02.2007, 01:09
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Re: English father Swiss mum-Not Married

Seeing as I was awoken...

Under Swiss law since 1998 there is no difference seen between a child born in wedlock and one born outside of wedlock. However...

A father of a child born out of wedlock, is not related until the father acknowledges his relationship. This recognition can be forced or voluntary. For this reason it is important that the father is recognized as soon as possible either before or after the birth. As a foreign father you have more options than a Swiss father - no surprise really. The first step is to be named on the birth certificate and in the family book. The second step is where the difference comes. A Swiss concubinate father must then take the step of registering his relationship with the relevant commune, he has a choice here. This done be signing a document and being entered in the recognition register. Once this step is done then the father has almost identical rights and responsibilities to a married father.

If this is not done then there will be a more complex legal process in order to have rights over the child - here we are talking of visiting rights,
the rights to decide on the upbringing of the child etc. Note in saying this Swiss law sees the right of the child as paramount. This means if the mother ceases relationship with the father shortly after the birth, before a fatherly relationship has had time to develop then the father and his family can often be cut out for the benefit of the child - this does not mean cut out from the need to pay alimony though! If the child develops a relationship with the father then the right of the child in the matter is jointly considered and both biological parents can be given the responsibility for the upbringing.

As a British citizen you can also apply to have your child recognized as a British citizen and as such this recognition is then accepted by the Swiss courts as proof of fatherhood and the rights are instated.

I guess that you are being asked to complete a Vaterschaftsanerkennung. More or less the only advantage you have through completion of this is, occurs upon separation or death of the mother. If you have been recognised officially as the father of the child then you have automatically the next right for the child. If you have not taken this step, then you would need to legally fight to have the right for the child recognized.

Note here the most difficult part of all of this comes when the child for some reason ends up in hospital and is seriously ill. Here hospitals can say family only and you are simply put not...

Whether you want to sign the register and depart with your 500 bucks is your call. If all goes well it will be money wasted but if things don't run smoothly it will cost you a lot more to get your rights later both in nerves and money.

A further point: If the document you are being asked to complete is not an Anerkennung des Vaterschafts then I don't know of any advantage it can possibly bring you.
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Old 09.02.2007, 01:19
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Re: English father Swiss mum-Not Married

Quote:
If you care enough about your partner to make a kid with her, then why not marry her?
Quote:
It's highly fashionable not to get married these days
Don't mean to pick an argument...

If you look at statistics then more that 50% of marriages will end in divorce... so the notion that one should marry for the sake of kids is kind of not fully relevant

I personally got married for social rather than religious reasons. I did not want my wife to go through red tape crap if something ever happened to me. Plus maybe to give out a statement to society that I was taking my lover as a serious partner. We had a simple low key registered marriage and it was the best thing I did.

I do think that marriage is overrated and an old institution. It's love that truly counts. I rather see people in loving/caring relationships rather than countless people who are married but unhappy as hell! Maybe an ideal thing would be married + happy like me

Ok I don't know what I am trying to say
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Old 09.02.2007, 01:23
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Re: English father Swiss mum-Not Married

Richard are you a lawyer or something? Bloody hell is there anything you don't know?
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Old 09.02.2007, 10:55
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Re: English father Swiss mum-Not Married

Quote:
Richard are you a lawyer or something? Bloody hell is there anything you don't know?
I second that. Always informative and worth reading.
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Old 09.02.2007, 11:04
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Re: English father Swiss mum-Not Married

Quote:
Richard are you a lawyer or something? Bloody hell is there anything you don't know?
Rich can't be a lawyer. He wouldn't have time for a job like that with all those arcade trophies to his name
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Old 09.02.2007, 12:24
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Re: English father Swiss mum-Not Married

I have always believed that by involving officialdom in anything when you dont have to is a mistake. As a father of 3 I still subscribe to the belief that children are a matter for the parents and officials need only be involved when something seriously goes wrong in what should be, essentialy, a private matter.
Lets face it, relationships do go belly up from time to time and when that happens you can bet your life that the courts, should you choose to involve them, will almost always award custody of children to the mother. There has to be pretty convincing reason for them not to backed up by hard documentary evidence. In my experience it is a particularly hard and cold mother who denies a father access to his child or vice versa, and only parental abuse or violence would be a valid reason.
I can see whats on your mind and offer advice based on my own personal experience.
When I split from my first wife 7 years ago, we sat down at the table and discussed the best way forward with regard to our two children. We discussed involvment and access as well as financial matters and came to a sensible and fair agreement which has been honored by us both and as a result we have had seven trouble free years. I have seen my children as much as I want and have as much say in there upbringing as ever I did when we were together. All this with not one official nose poker inner, one lawyer and no 500CHF fee!

Foot note:- This is Switzerland man you have to pay a fee for every official action no matter what.

Good luck! Filton.
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Old 09.02.2007, 16:52
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Re: English father Swiss mum-Not Married

Thanks for the help, you kick ass!

I'm sure its best to pay the 500.. its just been presented in a very strange way. Nobody seems to know anything about it in the offices where its been dealt with. A meeting with them revealed very little, no-one has mentioned the below. I thought there would be something related to my nationality that would effect things. The thing is the document is not the Anerkennung des Vaterschafts.

As a British citizen you can also apply to have your child recognized as a British citizen and as such this recognition is then accepted by the Swiss courts as proof of fatherhood and the rights are instated.
Richard et al. AKA "the dude who knows sh*t in this information mine of officialdom"

The options we have as far as the office I am now speaking to is concerned are
Alleinige Elterliche Sorge or Gemeinsame? I think.. ,so basically joint rights of parental care or mothers rights of parental care..? No-one has offered an alternative. Who said you have to pay for admin in Switz? To process it as mothers rights of parental care also costs (300). Gulp something to get used too and budget for.

Why do we have to state this because we don't believe that a piece of paper (marriage certificate) is needed in our life right now. I want to speak to someone in the UK about my sons British Citizenship etc. this might shed some light on the matter:::? any ideas?

.....otherwise I crack on with the next telephone number for some unknown council building... quite mysterious really... sometimes I think i'm listening to a recorded message and then I realise its someone speaking to me... weird... in the background the sound of a pin.... dropping. someone 5 offices away coughs... I didn't know swiss admin could be such a thriller.... 007 Licence to Officiate (Hmm)
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