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  #21  
Old 08.09.2010, 12:16
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Re: Children hitting each other.

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Learning break away moves and blocking techniques is always an answer, marshal arts such as Aikido teach an individual to be reactive and use the aggressor’s strength or speed against him to restrain him, to prevent the aggressor landing a punch, without actually hitting.
Most Aikido is BS. By the time he gets to do something remotely useful He/she will have his own kids.
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Old 08.09.2010, 12:21
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Most Aikido is BS. By the time he gets to do something remotely useful He/she will have his own kids.
Well I'm no expert but the wrist and hand locks plus the movement are used predominantly in the Israeli Marshall Art system, the SAS teach it and lots of major police forces around the world employ these techniques to restrain.
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Old 08.09.2010, 12:25
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Re: Children hitting each other.

I've done Chinese shaolin martial arts myself almost up to compition standard so can teach him myself but its just the spirit he needs to go and retaliate. im wondering whether i get him some sparring mits but i think he's too young for that.
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Old 08.09.2010, 12:26
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Re: Children hitting each other.

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Well I'm no expert but the wrist and hand locks plus the movement are used predominantly in the Israeli Marshall Art system, the SAS teach it and lots of major police forces around the world employ these techniques to restrain.

Wrist locks are not an aikido exclusive thing. And please note that the restrain of such individuals are usually done after take down.
Most restrain for uncooperative suspects seem to come from wrestling more than anything else.

Also please note that Police forces "requirements" or not necesarilly based on life.

you can research extensively about this on bullshido .net
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Old 08.09.2010, 12:26
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Re: Children hitting each other.

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Most Aikido is BS. By the time he gets to do something remotely useful He/she will have his own kids.
I don't think so really, alot of the holds and misdirections are quite easy to learn, admittedly they will have limited effect on a steroid induced monster of a man (unless you are an expert), but against skinny little kids, it will all work fine, and probably good practise. I do like the cross-face chicken wing wrestling hold though, learn that one and no-one will mess!
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Old 08.09.2010, 12:28
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Re: Children hitting each other.

Let kids figure things out. I know it's hard, but from my experience, if a kid isn't aggressive it's going to be difficult for him to defend himself. He'll learn on his own. The may point is that being a 'gentle soul' is not a bad thing, and I'm not sure you want to send mixed messages in that regard. He'll eventually learn to defend himself and his size may in the future make him a less likely target.

I had problems like that in school and last year re-lived it with my oldest son in 3rd grade. He's doing fine now.

good luck.
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Old 08.09.2010, 12:31
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Re: Children hitting each other.

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I don't think so really, alot of the holds and misdirections are quite easy to learn, admittedly they will have limited effect on a steroid induced monster of a man (unless you are an expert), but against skinny little kids, it will all work fine, and probably good practise. I do like the cross-face chicken wing wrestling hold though, learn that one and no-one will mess!

Difficult to explain without a thread but:

90-95% of aikido training is a cooperative attacker. Lunge punge, weird stance, unresisting when on the ground.

grappling (wrestling, judo, bjj) techniques are done in training with uncooperative partners which is where you can learn. aikido "misdirection" and holds are preassuming too much. that is the point.

Chicken wing, or americana is a Wrestling technique all the way :P

Look at the page

and , as I have always said.
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Old 08.09.2010, 12:32
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Re: Children hitting each other.

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We moved back here a year ago with our 8,10 and 12 year old kids, yesterday i saw(then stepped in) at the school during morning tea my 12 year old son put in a headlock by one kid while the other boy held his head and rammed his knee into my sons face repeatedly, the Swiss school system has a masive problem with mobbing, every day at the school I see fights, starting from the kindy kids to 6th class. My boy does karate and that only sort of helps. The teachers only talk about it nothing happens. I am a 6ft 2inch kiwi male with full beard and still get no respect from the school kids, they call me every name under the sun when I see them down the street.
I have no answers.
I got told he should fight back and he does daily but this doesnt help.
We live in a decent area and its not the foreign kids who are the problem its the swiss kids.
And dont think about talking to the parent/parents they will also yell and screm at you.
I know this wont help but Im glad Im not the only one that has this problem
FRom what I see it all starts at school, the Swiss have to be more tollirent of outsiders, but the world outside of Switzerland, has to be taught at school ie different cultures, language and religions. I appreciate that the swiss may feel threatened by all us foreigners, but you have to ask why we are all here? My answer is that business requires an all rounded approach especially when dealing with companies overseas and the Swiss cannot do it, because their schooling / culture is too narrow minded. The problem is that your son is the outsider and therefore an easy target, rather than the kids seeing him as somebody who has something to offer, who they could learn from.
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  #29  
Old 08.09.2010, 12:43
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Re: Children hitting each other.

A Swiss friend of mine has taught her 6 year old daugther to retaliate. She has just started 1st klasse and there is a boy who seems to cause lots of trouble to the point that the parents have decided to bring the issue up at their parents/ teacher meeting last week. But since her daughter hit him back, he annoys everybody else not her anymore..

In the Kita that my 2 year old daughter attends, they let the kids fight and argue as long as they are the same size. They think it's up to the kids to solve their problems..I just hope that when it is a case of bullying, the problem is tackled differently.


I'd love my kids to start judo but here it starts from 7..
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  #30  
Old 08.09.2010, 12:52
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Re: Children hitting each other.

Wow - thought you were talking about London there.

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We moved back here a year ago with our 8,10 and 12 year old kids, yesterday i saw(then stepped in) at the school during morning tea my 12 year old son put in a headlock by one kid while the other boy held his head and rammed his knee into my sons face repeatedly, the Swiss school system has a masive problem with mobbing, every day at the school I see fights, starting from the kindy kids to 6th class. My boy does karate and that only sort of helps. The teachers only talk about it nothing happens. I am a 6ft 2inch kiwi male with full beard and still get no respect from the school kids, they call me every name under the sun when I see them down the street.
I have no answers.
I got told he should fight back and he does daily but this doesnt help.
We live in a decent area and its not the foreign kids who are the problem its the swiss kids.
And dont think about talking to the parent/parents they will also yell and screm at you.
I know this wont help but Im glad Im not the only one that has this problem
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  #31  
Old 08.09.2010, 12:52
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Re: Children hitting each other.

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Let him join Martial arts classes and let others know that he is learning Judo and if required, he wouldn't mind going from Judo to Karate. Judo classes can be started at 6. It will help him build up confidence and he will know that he can defend himself as talking to teacher doesn't always help because they think, at times, that kids should solve their own problems.
Letting other kids know that your kid is learning karate/judo is a really bad idea because my personal experience was that all the bullies wanted want to pick a fight with me to see how good I was.

Martial arts is however a good idea for kids. They learn self discipline and restraint, but not to fight back. I did karate as a child and we were taught to talk our way out of the fight or knock them to the ground and leg it

Like the OP, my son would never fight back when he was younger. One time 2 boys kept throwing snowballs at him and he was bawling and just stood there and took it. In the last year he's started fighting back. Full-on punch-ups with other boys too. "But hit me first" is the reason he gave for hitting back. "I don't care who started it, you were both hitting each other. Now shake hands and get over it" is my standard response. Two minutes later they are playing again. My son did discover that he has long arms and can hold kids away from reaching him I've been encouraging that and holding their arms so that kids can't hit him. Today he came home from play group with a big scratch on his eye, but thankfully he didn't fight back.

I believe that kids should never hit back because it doesn't solve anything and that if they keep on doing it, one day someone bigger than them is going to thump them hard.
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  #32  
Old 08.09.2010, 13:08
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Re: Children hitting each other.

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I believe that kids should never hit back because it doesn't solve anything and that if they keep on doing it, one day someone bigger than them is going to thump them hard.
you are right however it think that this is the trade off of being a daily target.

bloody kids honestly!

maybe we should set up our own little kids club network where all our well behaved, non violent kids can play nicely together and have a bit of fun and anyone cought hitting who's not given a right old rollicking by the parents is booted out
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  #33  
Old 08.09.2010, 13:24
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Re: Children hitting each other.

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I did karate as a child and we were taught to talk our way out of the fight or knock them to the ground and leg it
Reminds me of a piece of advice:

Avoid fighting whenever possible. But, if you have to, make it count: hit hard, hit first and run.

As an aside, I learned Judo to blue belt level as a child, but to be honest I fail to see how it helps in hitting issues as described by the OP. In a proper fight maybe, but Judo is primarily a throwing/tripping form of martial art, so once you have them down, what do you do? Put them in a hold?

No, if I were to choose one to provide a child with something to fight back with, I would look for the more *ahem* contact-based ones.
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  #34  
Old 08.09.2010, 13:35
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Re: Children hitting each other.

Depends on the school and the kind of kid thought..More and more kids are being stabbed in schools in France.. I would not want my daughter to take the risk to be cut opened by a cuter because she's fought back! I know I am taking an extreme but this kind of madness is happenning more and more.
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  #35  
Old 08.09.2010, 13:56
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Re: Children hitting each other.

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Depends on the school and the kind of kid thought..More and more kids are being stabbed in schools in France.. I would not want my daughter to take the risk to be cut opened by a cuter because she's fought back! I know I am taking an extreme but this kind of madness is happenning more and more.
I agree with Olympe on this one.

I`m the granny in the house, and my grand-kids, boy and girl, both went thru this period of being hit and bullied.

Their father went to see the parents and warned them about their kids behaviour, saying that if it happened again he would involve the Polizei. This had an impact.

However ..... a time later .... the girl was mobbed and bullied, so I phoned the teacher at his home .... he came running to our house, took a statement from her, reported it to the school Director ...... AFTER my son sent a letter, with copy to teacher, to the school Director (or whatever that person is called who is in overall charge there) ... again stressing that should this behaviour be repeated he would involve the Polizei and lay charges of assault.

Included in this "warning" to the school was the fear for the future when the class goes to the Ski-lager for winter sports ..... how violent will those children be by THAT time?.... if this behaviour is not stamped out NOW!

I would say ..... get involved .. let your feelings about violence be known ... and dont be afraid of involving the Polizei. When the kids grow up, assault is VERY serious ... in this country .... and NOT tolerated.
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  #36  
Old 08.09.2010, 14:14
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Re: Children hitting each other.

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Difficult to explain without a thread but:

90-95% of aikido training is a cooperative attacker. Lunge punge, weird stance, unresisting when on the ground.

grappling (wrestling, judo, bjj) techniques are done in training with uncooperative partners which is where you can learn. aikido "misdirection" and holds are preassuming too much. that is the point.

Chicken wing, or americana is a Wrestling technique all the way :P

Look at the page

and , as I have always said.
Yeah, I see what you mean now, I think it is an important lesson in sports as well, training when one is tired, and against good opposition is really the best. I don't think it invalidates the Aikido ideas, it just brings things to a real world perspective, you will be tired and hurt when the opportunity arises to pull out a set move, so you should train set moves when you are tired in a 'live' environment.
Playing a ‘dummy’ opponent will not get your skills to the next level, but from the other perspective, if you have no skills and are training the muscle memory from the beginning it is a little frustrating if you are continually knocked sparko by an expert when you try a new move, and it could teach a beginner to shun creativity in favour of expedience.
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  #37  
Old 08.09.2010, 17:04
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Re: Children hitting each other.

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FRom what I see it all starts at school, .... The problem is that your son is the outsider and therefore an easy target, rather than the kids seeing him as somebody who has something to offer, who they could learn from.
Wouldn't you agree that it "all starts at school" anywhere, "narrow-minded Swiss culture" or not? Presumably because that's where kids socialize the most with their age/size peers.

I also wouldn't jump to the conclusion that being an "outsider" is the problem here; it may be, but the OP sure hasn't mentioned it.

Kids fight each other anywhere in the world, for any reason you care to mention. They fight each other to whatever extent the grownups in charge will let them get away with it, because kids are uncivilized little monkeys.

So at what point should the grownups in charge intervene? There's a delicate balance between imposing civilized behavior and encouraging kids to learn to sort things out themselves. Different parents, different teachers - and yes, different cultures - will draw the line different places on this, but they are all trying to achieve the same balance.

It's important to remember that when teaching styles and expectations clash: step back, take a deep breath, and remind yourself to assume good faith. Swiss educators on the whole really are not incompetent nor are they malicious. They are trying to get a good outcome for your kids, in the best way they know how... and indeed, 5 million mostly-well-adjusted Swiss people walking around are evidence that their way does work, most of the time, for most kids. (Even if it is downright peculiar sometimes.)

I'm not saying parents ought to do everything the Swiss way, every time, but recognize that they do normally have a valid, time-tested approach - even if it is not the same as yours - and so fighting City Hall to substitute it for another valid, time-tested approach (yours) may not really be worth it. If you must have battles, pick your battles.

</soapbox>


I am sooo going to regret some of these posts someday when I have kids in school myself.
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Old 08.09.2010, 17:27
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Re: Children hitting each other.

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I am sooo going to regret some of these posts someday when I have kids in school myself.
Yes you are...

Children do focus on and target "different". Look at children and teenagers the way they all try to "fit in" with their peers. That difference could be anything, but it certainly includes being non-Swiss. Potentially worse still, if you are non-Caucasian. It is only as you reach a greater level of maturity that you realise individual is OK, but even then, look around you and you'll see most people "fit in" as adults too. (OK, so maybe it is worse in CH .)

Intervention - very hard to judge, but being a parent is also about helping children deal with different situations in different appropriate ways. You try to teach your children not to fight, so they don't. You tend to do this from an early age - long before it comes up by age 6-7-8ish when they start getting into "real" fights. In some instances, as in the OP's, it leads to confusion on the child's part. They are doing what they think is the right thing, but the bullying (and this is what it is if the child isn't enjoying it) doesn't stop.

You then tread a knife edge of trying to get the a child to react in a "proportionate and appropriate" way - in itself hard for adults to do at times, so what hope a child to really understand? Sure some do, but many don't.

The other way is the "socialist" way, which is that "society isn't like this, so we should involve the teachers" attitude. This can lead to the problem being solved or it can make it many times worse.

The point is that there are many options and they should all be explored. For every parent saying "hit the little shit" there'll be another saying walk away, for every parent intervening successfully, there'll be another who'll say the teachers did sweet FA or made the situation worse.

This is complicated by the fact that different teachers and schools have different personal and public levels of acceptance of what is and what is not allowed.

/random thoughts
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  #39  
Old 08.09.2010, 17:35
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Re: Children hitting each other.

hey, Judo is a great sport! As someone mentioned it will teach your little one self confidence and how to defend himself without hitting. What I tell my son is to yell, NO, really really loud and then to walk away! I found that some mothers just look the other way when there kids hit etc. I think that they themselfs do not know what to do. Good luck!! (sorry about the spelling)
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Old 08.09.2010, 17:40
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Re: Children hitting each other.

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Yes you are...

Children do focus on and target "different". Look at children and teenagers the way they all try to "fit in" with their peers. That difference could be anything, but it certainly includes being non-Swiss. Potentially worse still, if you are non-Caucasian.
Course they do. But any kind of "different" is good enough. The OP mentioned that his son is big for his age - that can be enough. Or if he wears glasses, or if he has red hair, or just about anything else you can think of. Or, yes, it could be his skin color/accent/nationality.

But OBone didn't say his son was being attacked for being 'foreign' so I wouldn't jump to read that into it. Telandy was turning the whole thing into "swiss are so narrow-minded, they should value foreigners instead of beating them up" which - in the absence of any indication from the OP that that's what's going on - seems a pretty odd conclusion to jump to.

(Right, I'm out of this thread now before I say anything else I am likely to find myself contradicting in five years' time!)
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