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  #61  
Old 03.11.2010, 15:30
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Re: Children hitting each other.

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My son was in a pretty similar situation when he was small. Always the smallest and an easy target. I then made friends with a few of the other mothers who had boys in his class, all the mothers became friends and so did the boys. They were 5 boys, always playing together. The bullying stopped, because of the safety in numbers rule. My son has now grown up to be a pretty tolerant, streetwise (6 foot tall) man.
I still have a few years ahead! But now, sadly, I feel that I have to cut this friend from my list because I'll eventually lose it and get very angry and she will be mad at me.... So not much option left...
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Old 03.11.2010, 16:26
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Re: Children hitting each other.

I have a problem at munchkin's daycare at the moment. There's one little boy (16 months) who thinks it's ok to bite my little girl on an almost daily basis

Friday before last he bit he hard enough on the thumb to draw blood and by Thursday last week it had become seriously infected, despite doing my best to keep it clean. I ended up at the doc's and got her antibiotic cream which has now led to her getting an infection as a side effect of the cream Joy.

Back to the doctor tomorrow it is then....

I've spoken to daycare (with my limited German) and it seems it is sometimes her fault as she was being a bit boisterous and sometimes (like the occasion above) she was minding her own business.

Their way of handling it is to sit them down, tell them "no" firmly and make them apologise (which means to stroke the other child's head as I don't think any of them are old enough to talk yet!!).

I don't think it's working and really don't know what to do. Her daycare centre is great and apart from this she is thriving there. Oh what to do.....
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Old 03.11.2010, 17:45
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Re: Children hitting each other.

You know, since being on this forum I got some great advices and the time out was one of the best. It works so well with my monkey.

But sadly I can't push other parents to do it with their kids and well.... this kid would spend a hell lot of time in time out if it was in my hands...
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Old 05.11.2010, 18:21
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Re: Children hitting each other.

Iíve quickly read through this thread and found it very interesting, both from the perspective of being father and a (currently non-active) Karate instructor.

I like the idea of implementing the time out / naughty chair / sin bin. I seemed to remember it worked well with me at primary school, we called it Ďbeing stood outí!

I donít want to go down the bottomless pit of the Ďwhich martial artí is best discussion. But for children in terms of self-defence, discipline and effective blocking techniques I can really recommend Karate (it is also very accessible in most major towns / cities in Switzerland). The main disadvantage of Karate in terms of self defence are; no defence against holds, locks, chokes, attacks from behind and an overreliance on your opponent using Karate techniques. (Advanced techniques and instructors versed in self-defence / other martial arts will cover this).

I started learning Karate when I was 9 years old (admittedly after watching the original Karate Kid on video in Ď85) in a pretty rough part of the UK (Manchester). I confirm it did not always detract the bullies; I was a tall skinny kid, pretty loud, energetic sort of kid, who didnít like fighting (even in Karate class). I was challenged to fights with Ďhardí kids or bullies on several occasions at secondary school and I refused for a few reasons. I got the aggression out of my system 2-3 times per week. My karate instructor taught me not to, unless I was attacked on the street and was forced to defend myself. The discipline, fitness and confidence, which Karate has given me in my life, are too great to quantify.

Iíve decided to teach my son restraint first of all. I will also teach him self-defence, basic blocking (passive) techniques early on and then take him to an organised Karate class when he is older.
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Old 06.11.2010, 00:02
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Re: Children hitting each other.

Our son was born here and is completely bilingual (no telling at all that he is half British, speaks perfect Basel dialect)

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the kids here in Switzerland are far rougher and far more violent than the kids back in the UK. (And I'm also from a pretty tough area of the UK)

As some people have mentioned, this boils down to a completely different way of parenting here - the idea of standing back and letting them resolve their differences........It is extremely tricky as it clashes completely with the more anglo style of rapid parental intervention.

Up until Kindergarten, my son did have occasional problems with a particular kid on our estate who for some reason just seemed to have targeted him. The kid was also 3 years older than him. It was awful.....the kids mum is a really really nice lady, dad is a doctor, very respectable family. One day while this kid was taunting my son (who was then 4) my son picked up a very long stick, and basically split this kids lip completely open with it. My son did this so quickly I didn't have a chance to stop. The kid ran in, in tears. I called the mum - she was fine about it. But from that moment onwards the kid left my son alone.

5 years later, they get along really well and the kid in question has turned out to be a really nice young lad.

But - also my experience has been when things cross a certain line in school then the system does intervene.

There was a boy who was pretty "special" in my sons class. A bit "odd" very clever, but completely no social restraint - and prone to very explosive uncontrollable outbursts. My son actually really liked this kid as he was so funny and different and sometimes they got along well (all the other kids were pretty freaked by him and so my son was his only friend) But when the kid "turned" he would turn on my son. My son can handle himself pretty well - he's a big lad, with lots of friends and plays things down.

But 18 months ago he came home with quite a cut above his eye. Very casually he told me oh yes "so and so, tried to stab me in the eye with a pair of scissors in woodwork"

naturally I was concerned and contacted the teachers who confirmed this had indeed happened. They also told me this boy would frequently throw chairs around the classroom and kept saying, I'm going to come in with a machine gun and blow you all to bits. (age 7) Clearly the poor lad was very disturbed. The lad then told his mother that my son had tried to stab him with scissors (an out and out lie) by this time the list of incidents got so long the school issued a notice suspending the boy from school.

On the morning of the notice, his mother stormed into the classroom and started shrieking at the class teacher (a poor older lady teacher) She had to be physically restrained by 2 teachers and removed from school.

It was at this point that I (and a number of other parents) decided enough was enough. The teacher actually encouraged us to write to the Schulrat - they wanted this kid out, but it's really really difficult to remove a child. Interestingly enough out of all the parents it was only myself, another American mother and a Swiss/Tibetan mother who actually were willing to make statements.

The boy was removed and placed in a different school more suited to deal with him and I'm really happy to hear that he is really settled there - with staff who clearly have the expertise to work with him. My sons class has now become a different place completely - much calmer.

So - I've experienced the "let them get on with it" and the "direct intervention" here in Switzerland.

Another thing is, boys seem to love to play fight, they're like cubs. My son will wrestle for hours with his best friends - they do it for fun and also there is a kind of pecking order that's established there - for better or for worse. I have to trust my son that he can defend himself but never act in a malicious or bullying way........so far so good but parenting is a bloody hard job.....!
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  #66  
Old 06.11.2010, 03:59
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Re: Children hitting each other.

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couldnt agree more. hit or be hit!
Not true. Teachers get tired of dealing with children who do hit back! That is when the trouble really begins. Learning to walk away, or even better learning the skills of avoiding trouble, is a far better solution. The majority of children do not get hit and from my (extensive) experience, it is because they develop the skills of keeping themselves out of trouble and not because they have hit back. Being the biggest or the smallest in the class makes no difference. Attitude and behaviour does.

Despite being a fan of martial arts for older children and having been involved for several years in the past, from personal experience and observation, 4-6 year olds who learn martial arts are more likely to be involved in school and neighbourhood fights. My personal thought on this is because they are learning the skills of fighting, but at that age have not developed the discrimatory ability of knowing when it is appropriate and when it is not and certainly do not understand the martial arts philosophy of restraint.

Your child is not going to build up his self confidence through hitting back.
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Old 06.11.2010, 04:08
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Re: Children hitting each other.

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but parenting is a bloody hard job.....!
I agree totally Stephanie. the hardest, most committing, often undervalued, one.
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Old 06.11.2010, 15:10
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Re: Children hitting each other.

Firstly, thank you for sharing your experiences Stephanie, you are doing a great job!!!

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Another thing is, boys seem to love to play fight, they're like cubs.
Just picking up on your point. I read something very interesting on the subject of play fighting in the book Raising Boys, by Steve Biddulp.

Ever noticed how grown men like to join in with boys wrestling and play fighting? It's actually a very important lesson for the child in learning how to control your behaviour when you are full of testosterone. Usually the play fights go a bit too far, the adult man should call time out when things start to get out of hand or too violent. It's a very important lesson which will help him to become a well balanced adult in control of his size and strength.

Out of interest, I'm very proud to call this man my friend, my Karate sensei and my mentor. He taught me control, self discipline and respect during 15 years of Karate training. (BBC reporter by day).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj_ES...ayer_embedded#
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Old 06.11.2010, 15:17
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Re: Children hitting each other.

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Despite being a fan of martial arts for older children and having been involved for several years in the past, from personal experience and observation, 4-6 year olds who learn martial arts are more likely to be involved in school and neighbourhood fights. My personal thought on this is because they are learning the skills of fighting, but at that age have not developed the discrimatory ability of knowing when it is appropriate and when it is not and certainly do not understand the martial arts philosophy of restraint.

Your child is not going to build up his self confidence through hitting back.
I completely agree with Biff on this one. In my experience as a student and an instructor, 9 years old and onwards is a good age to start learning a martial art.
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Old 06.11.2010, 16:23
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Re: Children hitting each other.

More importantly, children (and parents) must have a level of confidence that when an incident of bullying or other violence is reported to a teacher, that the matter will be taken seriously and be dealt with sensitively, swiftly and effectively.

If the child thinks telling a teacher isn't going to stop the bullying then you will get all the other problems you pointed out.

Cheers,
Nick

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Not true. Teachers get tired of dealing with children who do hit back! That is when the trouble really begins. Learning to walk away, or even better learning the skills of avoiding trouble, is a far better solution. The majority of children do not get hit and from my (extensive) experience, it is because they develop the skills of keeping themselves out of trouble and not because they have hit back. Being the biggest or the smallest in the class makes no difference. Attitude and behaviour does.

Despite being a fan of martial arts for older children and having been involved for several years in the past, from personal experience and observation, 4-6 year olds who learn martial arts are more likely to be involved in school and neighbourhood fights. My personal thought on this is because they are learning the skills of fighting, but at that age have not developed the discrimatory ability of knowing when it is appropriate and when it is not and certainly do not understand the martial arts philosophy of restraint.

Your child is not going to build up his self confidence through hitting back.
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Old 06.11.2010, 16:36
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Re: Children hitting each other.

Yes but what to do when the kids are too young to involve a teacher and when the bully's mom doesn't see it?
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Old 06.11.2010, 16:45
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Re: Children hitting each other.

Hi,

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Judo doesn't provide techniques for dealing with being grabbed by lapels???? You are sorely incorrect, if someone grabs me by anything, even to this day, which is many years after my judo training stopped, I find it of incredible assistance.
You are right - I just re-read my post. Judo and lapels certainly go together!

I'm sorry if my post came out sounding like one of those endless "Martial Art A is better than Martial Art B" discussions you get on rec.martial.arts.

I think any martial arts training is good for instilling a level of confidence and discipline; however it takes a lot of training and dedication before you become effective. If you want to learn some simple techniques, then something like the women's self defence classes my Aiki instructor used to teach is probably more appropriate.

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Also, most fights descend quickly to a grappel - judo provides the best training for dealing with everything after the first three seconds of a fight, where your kicks and punches may happen. As part of my judo training, we stepped outside the sport to deal with defensive techniques for kicks and punches, I assumed this was the norm, but maybe not.
True, some Judo clubs will use the last half-hour of training to show how to use Judo techniques can work in a self defence situation.

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Best advise ever though was from my trainer - this was dealing with teenagers, not children - which was, if faced with a threatening situation, your first course of action should be to run away, as you do not know whether your attacker may be armed or not. For youngsters, who know who the threat is coming from, my view is that they should be able to take a stand and defend themselves, but thats easy for a grown up to say, not so easy for a smaller child to do when faced with a bigger one.
At Aikido summer school we would sometimes have sessions taught by a police unarmed combat coach. His advice was also to just be aware of your surroundings - if you see possible confrontation up ahead, try and cross the street or take a different route.

I actually took up Aiki many years ago after three of my cousins and I were set upon by a gang outside a nightclub and we took a pasting. I was scared of my own shadow for about a year after that. The actual techniques aside, I always found it gave me the confidence to handle a potential confrontation.

The only time I've ever used a technique since then (and it wasn't really Aikido) was in the bogs in a nightclub when someone grabbed my arm wanting to start something - I grabbed his little finger and twisted it enough to give a warning that he might come off worse if he carries on.

That said, I wish I had taken up a martial art early on in life than later on.

Cheers,
Nick
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Old 06.11.2010, 16:47
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Re: Children hitting each other.

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Yes but what to do when the kids are too young to involve a teacher and when the bully's mom doesn't see it?
Then report it to the school - starting with the class teacher - and keep escalating until something is done.

Cheers,
Nick
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Old 06.11.2010, 17:43
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Re: Children hitting each other.

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Then report it to the school - starting with the class teacher - and keep escalating until something is done.

Cheers,
Nick
Nick, As I explained before, those kids are toddlers.
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Old 06.11.2010, 18:23
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Re: Children hitting each other.

Interesting discussion from devotees of the various martial arts. I also spent years at judo, but still do not think any martial art training is going to stop bullying and general fighting amongst very young children.

I agrre with NIcks comment regarding talking to the teachers - a team approach from parents and teachers is generally very important when dealing with any behaviour issues. Reasons for the hitting, pinching, biting etc needs to be looked at on an individual basis as there are many triggers. THe same goes for helping the one who is getting hurt - it needs to be observed on an individual basis, before trying to establish helpful solutions.
But, Nils is talking about smaller children. Anticipation and intervention! If your child is around someone whom you know is likely to do some hurting, then keep the children where you can see them. Be involved with them, ( you between them) model and parais the behaviours you want. It may not alter the behaviours overnight, but at least you will be keeping your child safe ( and remember to model the coping behaviours that your child needs to develop as well.) I know of one brave mother who actually went out of her way to invite the hitter to play with her child to try and build up a positve relationship between them. If that doesn't work and you feel your child is suffering ( either getting scared, depressed, also aggressive) then consider breaking contact with the other child for a while. A firendly "Hey, I think we need to keep the kids apart for a while because they don't seem to be able to cope well together at the moment," will not destroy your friendship with the other one's parent.
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Old 06.11.2010, 18:30
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Re: Children hitting each other.

I'll speak as a teacher here, and mention a tool we've given the kids in our school. It's called the Stop Rule, and is very simple - we've taught the kids how a variation can help them outside school as well.

First we explain the spiral of violence that can happen if you try "an eye for an eye" ... and how, when one of them is finally hurt or comes to a teacher, they're both perpetrators.
So, we teach that if somebody does something to them they don't like, to loudly and clearly say, "Stop! <name> I don't like you doing <behaviour>!"
If that doesn't stop it immediately, then they are to repeat the phrase and add, "Now you need to apologise to me." - again, clearly and firmly.
Finally they reach the step of, "If you don't stop it and apologise to me, I'm going to tell the teacher." - all open and clear, so there's less of the, "Dobber! Dobber!" action.
If it gets to the point of coming to a teacher, the offender has to then write an apology for the victim at home - which will, of course, bring questions from observant parents.
If the same child is writing many apologies, then the parents are directly involved in sorting it out.

The variation for outside school is similar to the following example: On a relatively-full train when I was a teenager, a bunch of three older kids stood over me as I was sitting and quietly demanded my wallet. I stood up and shouted, "No, I'm not giving you my wallet! Get away from me!". With everyone watching, the guys slunk away and got off at the next station - luckily I didn't have to test whether the 'audience' would actually do something. In public, bullies like things to be quiet ... and under their control.
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Old 08.11.2010, 13:40
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Re: Children hitting each other.

As an adult, if someone were to threaten me, I would call the police. I have no idea why people think children dont have the same rights to security.
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Old 08.11.2010, 13:45
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Re: Children hitting each other.

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As an adult, if someone were to threaten me, I would call the police. I have no idea why people think children dont have the same rights to security.
Probably because they don't do it with the same strength and purpose?

We talk about kids, not teenagers, young adult!
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Old 08.11.2010, 13:51
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Re: Children hitting each other.

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Our son was born here and is completely bilingual (no telling at all that he is half British, speaks perfect Basel dialect)

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the kids here in Switzerland are far rougher and far more violent than the kids back in the UK. (And I'm also from a pretty tough area of the UK)
You obviously have not taught to the school I was teaching at in Kent! where some of the parents were actually just as agressive as their kids.
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Old 08.11.2010, 14:08
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Re: Children hitting each other.

Nor at the schools at taught at for more than 20 years in the Midlands!
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