Hi All
I've recently been told by my employers in Zürich that when we are travelling on company business, we will be reimbursed up to the following (non-cumulative) limits for:
Breakfast CHF 15.-
Lunch CHF 35.-
Dinner CHF 40.-
when we are dining alone or with our own colleagues (i.e. not a "business dinner" - no clients are invited). Any amounts above these limits will not be reimbursed "for tax reasons". Therefore, a dinner alone in your hotel restaurant or via room service which costs CHF 60.- (easily done in London, Paris, You-name-it-capital-city etc) will only be reimbursed for CHF 40.- (even if you skipped breakfast) because otherwise, apparently according the Zürich Cantonal powers that be, the extra CHF 20.- would have to be declared as part of your taxable salary and taxed as such, which is clearly a headache the general accounts department would prefer to avoid.
This all seems pretty clear to me however my question is has anyone out there ever heard of this?
In our industry, we are in contact with many people from companies similar to our own; competitors, clients and otherwise, all based in Zürich and not one person we have spoken to is or has ever been subject to a similar régime in their company or has even heard of such a "tax reason".
I'm not complaining as such, business expenses are forever being squeezed and we just have to get on with it but I'm intrigued by this explanation we have been given.
Can anyone throw any light on it, please?

Hmmmm, not sure about corporate rates but my husband is a teacher at a Secondary School ("Gymnasium") here in Zurich and, as such, is an employee of the Canton. Whenever he's out and about on school business (regardless of whether in Switzerland or abroad) they have similar limits on meal expenses, so it's nothing really out of the ordinary.

No, I haven't heard of this.

When I'm in Norway, I typically spend about CHF 100 on dinner in a normal restaurant.

Hell, even here dinner typically is around CHF 60.

How do they figure CHF 40, average price at McDonalds?

Tom

Well, we're in the private (reinsurance) sector, if that's any help and so are all the people my colleagues and I have spoken to who have never heard of it

Its true. As far as the authorities are concerned, anything above those rates is taxable benefit (clearly some companies have been taking the pi$$ for a while now. They are actually clamping down quite hard on general expenses for entertaining etc

http://www.offizz.de/geschaeftsreise...gr_spesen.html

http://www.outdoor-public.de/reiseko...len-010110.php

Not applicable to Switzerland, but I found these for Germany. Especially the second link gives an overview of what is "allowed" for Germans travelling to the countries (you have to scroll down a bit).

It's quite common with German companies, even to the extent there is a "base amount" calculated for Germany and a percentage increase/decrease depending where your travelling.

All very efficiant, German style.

The amounts you mention are about right for normal meals outside, no alcohol of course. Chf 90.--/Dayx should be ewnough to live on providing you don't want fillet steak 3 times a day.

Seems your company is trying a fast one on you by mixing apples with oranges.

If you get a lumpsum - "Pauschalspesen" - then it can not be higher than the amounts your state without risking being taxable.

If you however get all your expenses reimbursed against receipt and no lumpsums, so called "Effektivspesen" then it will not be taxable (unless you make them suspicious by very, very high amounts).

Thanks Tilia, that's interesting (albeit conflicting with some of the earlier posts).

For the record, it's a Swiss company (not German @möpp and Today Only) and our expenses have always been reimbursed against receipts - no lump sums.
The company was in Geneva previously and we never had any issues on this subject. We're told it's specifically a Zürich-thing.

The plot thickens....

Has the Spesenreglement been approved by the Canton? If that is the case, there is some ambigouity regarding the limits that should be applied for food. The statement is that they "should not superseed 35 CHF". If they state that in the Spesenreglement and it is approved, then the HR doesn't have to put your expenses into your Lohnausweis. But it says "should" (sollten) and not "may not" (dürfen) which makes a difference.

If you regularly travel abroad and you can prove with receipt that your expenses are higher, it is very unlikely that the tax-authorities would tax you on any surplus amount. But then of course these amounts would have to be on the Lohnausweis and maybe your company don't want to do that.

So from a tax perspective, there is really should be no problem if you once in a while gets reimbursed more than 35 CHF as long as it is done against receipt and as long as it doesn't happen every day.

Every company I have worked for had similar rules. That would be three different companies in Switzerland in the telecom sector.

The reason is quite simple: In all three companies was it apparently introduced to prevent the employees from ordering the big steaks on company expenses... and if we are honest can one very well survive on 90 CHF a day. Yes, even in London.

At my employer they had one exception: If the breakfast buffet at the hotel they booked me was over 15CHF and included on the room bill, they did pay it without any issue.

How, no alcohol?

It's not dinner (or even lunch) without wine!

Tom

Again: I managed to live comfortably on 90 CHFs a day and that did include a beer or two (or three)... even in expensive places like Stockholm or Moscow. And if you really positively need to buy a bottle of red, you can use something called "salary" to pay it - it comes typically from the same employer.

The only thing that is wrong here is the "tax reason" explanation - it is complete rubbish and I cannot understand why a company HR cannot openly say: "We give you a budget to keep the costs under control" ... that's what you do in all other parts of a business as well.

Well, I guess that things are different here in Ticino.

Wine with a meal is a necessity that my employer understands.

Now, trying to expense a bus ticket is another matter (but a Taxi is no problem).

Tom

I had originally received a company mobile and later changed to a company blackberry.
Initially there was no problem using these for personal use until about 2 years ago (in March I think) we were asked to reimburse anything above 30chf that was not business related on the previous three months phone bills. I refused the back dated payments and there was quite a fuss about it but it eventually blew over.
Anyways since then the rule has been implemented and each month you get an itemised Bill where you have to pay the difference above 30chf.
I don't think this exists in many companies but apparently it is following the rules.

Weird, I have never heard of this. We have a limit on the costs of hotels but meals not really. As long as one is sensible of course, but I remember paying 120 USD for a dinner at a conference I just went to, nobody said anything!

I heard of this painfully in Finland.

For 5 years, my company (a subcontractor of a big Finnish firm) was refunding me the commuting cost from the headquarter-office (Helsinki) to the working-office of the client (not so far, but it required a regional monthly ticket, costing 100€ per month). My work agreement as sub-contractor worker was renewed every 6 months, with very little "gaps" between 2 agreements..

And then one day, the tax office points out that if one works at least 2 years pretty continuously at one location, then it is "de facto" considered as his/her working place, and there can not be refunding of the travel cost by the company.

So, the Finnish tax office declared that during 3 years, I earned an extra 3600 euros undeclared, and they taxed me for that, they rose a bit my tax percentage for those 3 years, and I had to pay something like 1500 euros unexpectedly I still wonder if my company knew the rules and hid it under the carpet, or if they sincerely made a mistake that I had to pay from my pocket.

I think it's good your company knows the rules, and that they are clear with the rules and with you. You have to pay by your own pocket, and if you think it's too much, you have to ask a salary raise... or look for some other job.

/Paul

To my knowledge this lump sum reimbursement is a German thing (driven by tax authorities) but it has different amounts for expensive countries like UK (London). They even give you the money if you do not spend anything, which is a different concept.

The original post here talks about acurately split 15 CHF for Breakfast, 35 for Lunch and 40 for Dinner (including beer and wine): And if you do not have breakfast, you cannot spend the "left over" CHF 15 for Dinner. Not really fair in my view.

There is one interesting post further down saying that these limits (15/35/40) are recommendations from the tax authorities in CH, not absolute "must not exceed" limits. Either this company has misunderstood this fine difference .... or they kind of mis-use it for cost cutting. It would be surprising if such rules are only applied in one company in canton Zurich.

Btw. CHF 90 in London, Paris or Scandinavia are not really generous for 3 meals, even if you do not eat a Filet-Steak for Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner. In Oslo a beer is already around EUR 10.

All Swiss companies I have worked for have similar maximum expenses.

I've only worked for one Swiss employer (other than myself), but expenses were not an issue. (And never were for any UK employer for that matter, though I heard similar stories to the above - I guess I got lucky). You put the claim in, your boss gives it the once over, signs it, you get the money. OK, when I took my Parisian colleagues to the Buddha Bar (Kobe beef, rather than steak) for dinner one time, I did call him first to ok the extra expense. After all, any expenses come out of his budget - it's up to him to control it, not some HR drone or bean counter. I suppose other companies may have different set ups.

I'd suspect HR are being blurry with the truth. For my part, working for my own company, I often expense meals. I don't know the details, but it does appear that only portion of the cost is tax deductable. The fact that tax can't be claimed back above a certain amount is irrelevant to whether it's an expense!

__________________
Down with racism. Long live miscegenation!