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  #21  
Old 22.05.2011, 12:17
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

[QUOTE=fkdstm;1204019]Hi ceppych,

No, it was a direct *deal, i found the radio via ebay and since it had 2 weeks on the bid to expire I sent a message to the seller who put the radio down and sent me his personal infos. I could confirm his address and telephone number plus we had a clear a good exchange that gave me confidence to wire the money. Yes, my mistake

This is the very thing Ebay advises against. Justifiably it would appear!
I think the seller feels he has you over a barrel, especially as you aren't in the UK.
He obviously deserves all you can throw at him.
Good luck.
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  #22  
Old 22.05.2011, 12:27
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

be sure to demonstrate that a contract was in place for the exchange of money for goods when you submit into the CC system.

Just hit him up with a small claims headache. You might want to check if you should be there and if it would add value to be there (or represented).

Is this person in Durham? Co Durham? What's the town name, I have contacts in the area
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  #23  
Old 22.05.2011, 13:29
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

Yes is in Durham, Co Durham, the address is nearby a place called: Langley Park

I will appreciate if you could ask your contacts in the area if they could represent me on this claim, I will be happy if i recover some part of my money. But of course it will be to much to plan a trip there just for this.

I have emails both through ebay messages and emails that prove we had a deal.

Anyhow, i'm writing him now a last email, so he is aware of the few things that could come up.

Thanks everyone for the advice so far!

Last edited by fkdstm; 22.05.2011 at 13:51.
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Old 22.05.2011, 13:55
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

Good luck with all this. It is a headache and a long process and, sometimes, you wonder if it is all worth it. My father has sued people a number of times for non-payment and these are things he has mentioned to me over the years.

First of all presume your money has reached the account and the person has it. Anything else is pretty unlikely, although not completely impossible. But really improbable.

So these are now things you have to consider:

1. Can he actually repay you the money? If the person is unemployed and this is a regular scam, then all you can do is put an attachment of earnings order on to them and you will get perhaps 10 - 20 pounds a month until the amount is paid off. If that.

2. Is it really worth your while? Think about the costs involved in doing all of this. If he does get a judgement against him, how are you going to enforce it? Are you going to employ bailiffs? Will the courts take the money from him and then give it to you? If the latter then it is perhaps worth it.

3. How do you know that the person you are in contact with corresponds to the address and phone? If they do not, then you do not have any real contact with them, other than with the bank account. Is there any way you can obtain information regarding whether or not the cleared funds were withdrawn from the account, and if so, when?

As a general rule of thumb, unless the amount is a lot of money, my father will not bother to sue as it is not cost effective. Personally I would. Even if the other party gets 6 months to a year of serious annoyance it is worth it.

Good luck.
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  #25  
Old 22.05.2011, 14:20
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

Quote:
1. Can he actually repay you the money? If the person is unemployed and this is a regular scam, then all you can do is put an attachment of earnings order on to them and you will get perhaps 10 - 20 pounds a month until the amount is paid off. If that.

He has a job, I know this cause I called the phone he gave me and confirmed with his son what he had told me over email. He works out of town during the week.

Quote:
2. Is it really worth your while? Think about the costs involved in doing all of this. If he does get a judgement against him, how are you going to enforce it? Are you going to employ bailiffs? Will the courts take the money from him and then give it to you? If the latter then it is perhaps worth it.

Well, upthehatters found for me that web service that seem to be quite reasonable to start the small claims process.


Quote:
3. How do you know that the person you are in contact with corresponds to the address and phone? If they do not, then you do not have any real contact with them, other than with the bank account.
As said above, I have called to confirm the address. I have even looked at his house via google streetview and from the pictures he sent me of the radio I can see how the backyard corresponds to what I can see on googlemaps.. yes this sounds like a movie but it worked. At least i'm getting some entertainment out of it.

Quote:
Is there any way you can obtain information regarding whether or not the cleared funds were withdrawn from the account, and if so, when?
I only got a fax from his bank, but will call postfinance tomorrow to make them aware I will start some legal process. Perhaps this way they can help investigate the case a bit further.

Quote:
As a general rule of thumb, unless the amount is a lot of money, my father will not bother to sue as it is not cost effective. Personally I would. Even if the other party gets 6 months to a year of serious annoyance it is worth it.
Yes, my guess is i will perhaps refrain after i get real quotes on how much this all will cost, I won't mind loosing 50% of what i paid to be honest.

As i told him when he said: "I'm not playing anymore this game". For me this is just about to start.
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  #26  
Old 22.05.2011, 14:31
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

Once you get judgement in your favour, the next process in the small claims court is to apply to the court bailiffs, more charges, but added to the judgement for the defendant to pay. If the address is valid, they have the power to enter his property and remove goods, they take at the rate of 10-15%, so if the defendant has a £500 TV, that goes, and £50-75 is recovered through auctions and returned to you. Most claims do not get this far. Once the bailiffs show up, it's usually pay up time. Court Bailiffs have more powers than Debt Collectors. He will also want to avoid a CCJ which will affect his credit record/score. These stay on file for up to 6 years.

The Small Claims court is quite informal, it is usual held in Judges chambers rather than open court and if you explain your position, you may be able to attend via telephone rather than in person.
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  #27  
Old 22.05.2011, 18:58
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

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As you can see from her post above yours she did get her bank to confirm with the receivers bank that the money reached his account ok. In any case, I hope the OP has success in retrieving the money 1000chf is definitely worth going after.
Yes. I read that. But does the bank know that the person is denying receiving it? I meant couldn't the OPs bank confirm with the receives bank? Perhaps his bank thinks it went through but didn't. Someone (maybe the OP directly) needs to talk to the receiving bank to confirm that it is in fact in the seller's account.

And what did the bank say about the person denying receiving the money? Maybe they need to put a trace on it or cancel the transaction or something since the receiver continues to deny receiving it.

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I only got a fax from his bank, but will call postfinance tomorrow to make them aware I will start some legal process. Perhaps this way they can help investigate the case a bit further.
This is what I was refering too & it seems you have done what suggested. Too bad he'd doing this! But I wouldn't let it drop. If you let it drop he can think he can keep doing this to others.
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  #28  
Old 22.05.2011, 20:01
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

If the other guy keeps on denying that he has received any money and essentially tells you to hit the road, it is not merely a matter of him not living up to his contractual obligations but instead could be fraud, in that he claimed to be willing to sell a second hand radio with the intention of following through on the contract.

My suggestion would be to let the police do the heavy lifting instead of going directly to small claims court by reporting the suspected fraud:
http://www.actionfraud.org.uk/
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  #29  
Old 22.05.2011, 20:25
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

A couple years ago, I sent a payment to a company, and they claimed they didn't receive it.

I paid it via internet banking, and read in the numbers with my pay-pen, and the bank confirmed the transfer, but they continued to insist they didn't receive it.

Finally, it was discovered that my pay-pen had misread two numbers (and strangely, were misread such that the checksum was good!), and so they got the payment, but for the wrong invoice!

Tom
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  #30  
Old 22.05.2011, 20:53
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

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A couple years ago, I sent a payment to a company, and they claimed they didn't receive it.

I paid it via internet banking, and read in the numbers with my pay-pen, and the bank confirmed the transfer, but they continued to insist they didn't receive it.

Finally, it was discovered that my pay-pen had misread two numbers (and strangely, were misread such that the checksum was good!), and so they got the payment, but for the wrong invoice!

Tom

And I hope my case is somehow similar to this you describe cause this is what i got from him, few minutes ago, in response to the email i sent earlier today telling that I was about to start a legal process:

Please feel free to take me to court, I look forward to proving you wrong because all I have to do show the court my bank statement. If you wish to waste further money by pursuing this go ahead but also be aware if you are unsuccessful you will be liable for my costs.


im really puzzled after 3 weeks of asking banks where is my money!
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  #31  
Old 22.05.2011, 21:02
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

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And I hope my case is somehow similar to this you describe cause this is what i got from him, few minutes ago, in response to the email i sent earlier today telling that I was about to start a legal process:

Please feel free to take me to court, I look forward to proving you wrong because all I have to do show the court my bank statement. If you wish to waste further money by pursuing this go ahead but also be aware if you are unsuccessful you will be liable for my costs.


im really puzzled after 3 weeks of asking banks where is my money!
You will not be liable for his costs...

If he is so adamnant, maybe his bank have perhaps paid the money into the wrong account...Ask him to fax you the bank statements, check the dates and account numbers, explain to him he will have to do this if it goes to court, so he could save you both a lot of time.
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  #32  
Old 22.05.2011, 21:18
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

Sorry, but the fact that he hasn't called his bank to find out what happened is just showing his bad faith. Get in touch with the police where he is resident and/or contact that fraud people on that website above.
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  #33  
Old 22.05.2011, 21:28
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

I had checked with him the bank account number, IBAN, SWIFT, etc.. then a lady at postfinance double checked that for me before sending the money. A week ago after i started the formal bank enquiry he confirmed his infos were ok. The bank official report says this:

Le montant du virement a été crédité correctement sur le compte du destinataire le 27.04.2011. Pour nos frais de recherches, nous débiterons votre compte d’une montant de CHF 30.00. Pour notre part, nous considérons cette affaire comme liquidée.

So, do I need a laywer to get Postfinance or Santander to find that money?

The financial assistants at postfinance say they can't do more...
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  #34  
Old 22.05.2011, 21:57
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

Probably it's too late now to mention but maybe it will be helpful for the future.

If you had used PayPal to pay the guy (by paypal balance or by credit card via paypal) it would have been very easy to report it and have your money back in matter of days.
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  #35  
Old 22.05.2011, 21:59
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

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I had checked with him the bank account number, IBAN, SWIFT, etc.. then a lady at postfinance double checked that for me before sending the money. A week ago after i started the formal bank enquiry he confirmed his infos were ok. The bank official report says this:

Le montant du virement a été crédité correctement sur le compte du destinataire le 27.04.2011. Pour nos frais de recherches, nous débiterons votre compte d’une montant de CHF 30.00. Pour notre part, nous considérons cette affaire comme liquidée.

So, do I need a laywer to get Postfinance or Santander to find that money?

The financial assistants at postfinance say they can't do more...
No. You need to call the police where he lives and then contact the fraud people as listed above.
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  #36  
Old 22.05.2011, 22:07
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

Well before doing so I want to be 100% sure there's no bug in the system. Somehow i prefer to trust him, hoping that the money might be on his account but is not appearing on his balance for some weird reason.

If that's the case, I hope to find it out before having to pay more money.
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  #37  
Old 22.05.2011, 22:12
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

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Well before doing so I want to be 100% sure there's no bug in the system. Somehow i prefer to trust him, hoping that the money might be on his account but is not appearing on his balance for some weird reason.

If that's the case, I hope to find it out before having to pay more money.
Start with getting a copy of his statement for that period.
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  #38  
Old 22.05.2011, 22:48
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

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Start with getting a copy of his statement for that period.
To my request this was his answer:

I’m sorry I’m not going to pursue this anymore, as I keep saying I have nothing to hide, if you wish to go to court then let’s go.
This will definitely be my last communication with you other than through the courts.


This was then my answer:

If you have nothing to hide then just send me record that proves that on the 27 of april you did not received any money, show me that you have searched deep for that money and perhaps you will find out that you have it there but the bank was not showing it to you.

I will call santander tomorrow and if i dont receive their help, which is likely the case i will follow up to here:
http://www.actionfraud.org.uk/about-us/who-we-are

and then here:
https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome

Apart from talking to few solicitors to whom I requested quotes for their service.

So is your take as said before, you claim you have nothing to hide, then send me the record from just one day, april 27 that proves this.


.....

his last line, few minutes ago was this one:

"See you in court"




pffiuuu
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  #39  
Old 22.05.2011, 23:12
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

just found out that:

The Action Fraud service is a new service for UK citizens

So, I can't go that way from here...
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  #40  
Old 22.05.2011, 23:54
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

You can be finished with a small claims filing online in 30 minutes...go get him.

Before it even gets to court, you are entitled to a copy of all evidence he plans to produce. Thus, if he cannot produce the statement before, or in court, you have him. If he can, start chasing your bank.
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