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Old 21.05.2011, 18:21
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law advice on possible stolen money

Hi all, im looking for some advice on how to open a search for money I paid over postfinance to an account in the UK.

The account holder claims he never received it but postfinance, after my enquiry request, sent me official fax documents that prove from his bank that the money reached his account a month ago.

Now, since i have never gone through this, i'm hoping someone here could share some light. Fortunately it was not so much money (1000chf) but still I will like to put some pressure over this types so to avoid him to continue fooling dumb people like me.

I guess it doesn't make sense to pay a lawyer, but will there be a way to put at demand with the police based on the bank records?

Thanks in advance for any advice or good joke that could help ease the situation.

/f
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Old 21.05.2011, 18:30
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

Sue. You have proof he received it, he's stolen your money. That's it.
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Old 21.05.2011, 18:41
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

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Sue. You have proof he received it, he's stolen your money. That's it.
Clear, I will do, but my questions are more related to the whole process, I have never done this before and have little idea on how to go about it. Should one start the process here in CH or do I need a person who represents me on this in the UK? if the latter then i guess for the sum (1000chf), it will make little sense.. or are there any other ways one can start the case without the need of a "lawyer"?

Excuse my ignorance on this matters,
/f
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Old 21.05.2011, 18:43
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

If you have paid for goods or services, you have ample proof now that you have paid should he take action to try and get more from you.

Getting those goods or services after the fact may require a small claims action in the courts. If he has received the money from you and still tries to pursue you, it is both fraud and harassment.

You cannot start a small claims claim in the UK if you live in Switzerland, but a small time solicitor in the recipients town won't charge much to represent you in this respect, and all (reasonable) costs are recoverable.


EDIT: MoneyClaim Online (The Small Claims Court) now allows the claimant to have a non UK address.

Last edited by Upthehatters2008; 22.05.2011 at 10:51.
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Old 21.05.2011, 18:55
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

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a small time solicitor in his town won't charge much to represent you in this respect, and all (reasonable) costs are recoverable.
yes, i was paying him for a second hand radio that was publicly announced, I have also his home and phone address, the county is Durham. How can i get in touch with a solicitor there?

EDIT: Ok, i just found this site:

http://www.solicitors.co.uk/durham-solicitors.html

many thanks Upthehatters,
/f
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Old 21.05.2011, 19:04
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

http://www.solicitors.co.uk/durham-solicitors.html
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Old 21.05.2011, 19:13
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

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yes, i was paying him for a second hand radio that was publicly announced, I have also his home and phone address, the county is Durham. How can i get in touch with a solicitor there?

EDIT: Ok, i just found this site:

http://www.solicitors.co.uk/durham-solicitors.html

many thanks Upthehatters,
/f
Snap!


Message...
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Old 21.05.2011, 19:14
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

thanks, i also landed there few minutes ago.

will email few on the list there and will try to call this person who got the money though judging from his last email i will only loose a bit more money over skype calling him, this is his last email from few minutes ago.. (pasting it here for the sake of the storyline)

"I don’t like been threatened, as I keep saying I don’t have your money. I wish you well, but I don’t like been accused over something I haven’t done.
I’m now going to ignore all communication and if you wish to go down the legal route I will speak to you though my lawyer."


This was all after i told him i was going to start a legal claim... perhaps there's a chance his bank balance doesn't show him what the bank faxed to postfinance?, I really doubt it, but i have to say is bizarre that he's replying this way.. I think is still trust him, but i can't just say: well sorry, i believe you don't have my money.. when the bank records prove the opposite.
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Old 21.05.2011, 20:58
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

I am not one to judge anyone in this issue.
Before I would get involved in some long process with lawyers and such.
1) - I would email the individual the bank statement in pdf form.
I have experienced even here in Switzerland that when receiving notices I just sent the payment statement in a pdf file and everything is solved.
I would think the payment is in some electronic form.
2) - I would telephone the bank and request supply/request the information. Of course explaining the situation. They might not tell you everything but a yes or no answer could be worth something. Of course keep the track of the person supplying the info.

To make another long story short.
I recently was interested in purchasing a motorcycle which was advertised in a Swiss auto/moto internet platform.
The bike was in England. The deal was I was to send the money to a Escrow service in England and once the money was received the bike would be sent. Once I received the bike and was satisfied the money would be released. Sounds easy and secure enough. Problem was the Escrow service did not exist at least not on real terms and they were not licensed.
Luckily I was able to verify the Escrow was not licensed in England and became suspicious and requested a different Escrow service.
Just my two cents
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Old 21.05.2011, 22:02
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

hi mb,

Quote:
Before I would get involved in some long process with lawyers and such.
1) - I would email the individual the bank statement in pdf form.

yes, i paid extra 30chf to postfinance to get me that, this is precisely what i have emailed to the person whom i paid.


Quote:
2) - I would telephone the bank and request supply/request the information. Of course explaining the situation. They might not tell you everything but a yes or no answer could be worth something. Of course keep the track of the person supplying the info.

as said above, i have ordered it already, i got the banks to search for the payment and got copies of the fax where the final bank gives a clear date when the money reached the final account.

this is why i have no other options left cause even with this official papers the person who should have received the money still tells me he didn't got it.

in one line this is his take:

"I don't care what the documents say I dont have your money and I'm no longer playing this game with you"

since i have his phone number and home address i find it very strange he continues to deny the validity of the bank report.

I have explained the case to 2 solicitors online and hope to get an answer early monday.
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Old 22.05.2011, 01:40
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

Have you discussed this with your bank? Can't your bank confirm with his bank? Or something?
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Old 22.05.2011, 03:03
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

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hi mb,
yes, i paid extra 30chf to postfinance to get me that, this is precisely what i have emailed to the person whom i paid.

as said above, i have ordered it already, i got the banks to search for the payment and got copies of the fax where the final bank gives a clear date when the money reached the final account.
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Have you discussed this with your bank? Can't your bank confirm with his bank? Or something?
As you can see from her post above yours she did get her bank to confirm with the receivers bank that the money reached his account ok. In any case, I hope the OP has success in retrieving the money 1000chf is definitely worth going after.

After doing a bit of googling i came upon these sites which could be of help to you.
money claim
HMCOURTS
cost of claim

With the moneyclaim website it can be possible for you to do the whole thing online and not have to go to the court. The fee for this is based on the amount of money involved. In your case the claim is for 1000chf=700approx so the cost to you through moneyclaim.gov.uk would be 60 if settled online.
See page 2 of the cost of claim document.

See what response you get form the solicitors in the UK on Monday but if I were you, I'd start thinking about setting up a claim through the moneyclaim service, especially as it seems that the guy isn't going to listen to you any further.

Best of luck.

EDIT: just saw this on another document

Quote:
How long does a case normally last?
There is no set amount of time a case should last. However, a claim for less than 5,000 will usually take up to six months, while larger claims may take longer.
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/c...1_web_0510.pdf

You could be in it for a while. But I wouldn't let that put you off.
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Old 22.05.2011, 03:25
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

Hi Travnett, thanks immensely for all this info, i will no doubt use it.

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You could be in it for a while. But I wouldn't let that put you off.
This is really not a problem, i'm on the follow up cause first i'm not willing to let the guy go so easily, second. I might stop him from trying this on others. Plus, in the way to it, i will learn about law and human psychology.. Is really puzzling for me to see how someone can either think is so easy to escape when he has given sensible personal data. Is not all about money and i have time to spend on this so we will see how expensive this could be for him.

I will be happy if i can recover part of the money.
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Old 22.05.2011, 10:17
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

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you can't register a claim because the Claimant must have a UK address. Enforced as a written rule in general and by the web software/app which uses UK postal Code lookups for the claimants address.
oh, so either i find someone there who could represent me or file the claim via a solicitor, in a way it sounds to me that the second option will be more seriously taken.. i might be wrong...
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Old 22.05.2011, 10:23
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

When we transfer funds internationally, our 'home' bank receives the transfer into a holding account, and if they don't match the details correctly, it takes them a couple of weeks to sort it out.

It sounds like you are either dealing with an amateur, or someone who has made their mind up that you are the one trying to rip them off, or they are a crook.

I prefer to assume it's an honest mistake rather than a dishonest one. So a registered letter, giving a copy of the official documentation, and instructions on how to check with their bank that the money was not accidentally 'lost in transit' and then a list of what actions you can take.

I'm interested that you have already threatened him. Rather than assuming it's an honest mistake, and helping him to find the money. Surely both sides would be interested in finding the money, and it would be much easier to assume that the bank has made a mistake, than that one side is trying to rip off the other...

Do you know what bank it was transferred to ? Maybe you can contact that bank and tell them to confirm with their client that the money was transferred. You might not be able to get them to disclose where the money went, but you can 'alert' them that the money allegedly was not delivered to the correct account...
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Old 22.05.2011, 10:44
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

As far as I can see, you don't say how and where you ordered this radio.
If it was a site such as Ebay, you could have recourse through them.
I use Ebay frequently (no affiliation whatsoever) and have found them to be helpful when a payment/delivery is disputed.
Even a trade journal or newspaper might try to help.
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Old 22.05.2011, 10:52
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

Hi ceppych,

No, it was a direct *deal, i found the radio via ebay and since it had 2 weeks on the bid to expire I sent a message to the seller who put the radio down and sent me his personal infos. I could confirm his address and telephone number plus we had a clear a good exchange that gave me confidence to wire the money. Yes, my mistake.

So i can't do much regarding ebay other than just go in and leave a clear comment on his feedback page warning people to make deals with him. But that will happen at a later date when all other chances are considered lost.

Ebay still lists the radio (with a message that says: This offer was terminated by the seller because the item is no longer available) and I have the messages with him that prove he took it off from there for me. That might help though.
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Old 22.05.2011, 10:58
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

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Hi ceppych,

No, it was a direct *deal, i found the radio via ebay and since it had 2 weeks for the bid to expire sent a message to the seller who put the radio down and sent me his personal infos. I could confirm his address and telephone number plus we had a clear a good exchange that gave me confidence to wire the money. Yes, my mistake.

So i can't do much regarding ebay other than just go in and leave a clear comment on his feedback page warning people to make deals with him. But will happen at a later date when all chances are lost.

Ebay still shows the radio and I have the messages with him that prove he took it off from there for me. That might help though.

Make sure you start collecting screen shots of all evidence you will rely on...
The Small Claims procedure is much easier online than it was a few years ago when I used it. Once he gets the claim from the courts, this will wake him up (if he admits it then, he will have to pay your costs so far, plus court costs - be sure to remind him...) If he still continues denying he has received the money after you have proof, he is in a whole lot of trouble if he continues his claim under oath. You can demand to see bank statements for the date the money entered his account. Be sure you claim interest, all your fees incurred so far etc
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Old 22.05.2011, 11:19
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

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I recently was interested in purchasing a motorcycle which was advertised in a Swiss auto/moto internet platform.
The bike was in England. The deal was I was to send the money to a Escrow service in England and once the money was received the bike would be sent. Once I received the bike and was satisfied the money would be released. Sounds easy and secure enough. Problem was the Escrow service did not exist at least not on real terms and they were not licensed.
Luckily I was able to verify the Escrow was not licensed in England and became suspicious and requested a different Escrow service.
Just my two cents

Are you mad? that is one of the oldest and well known scams going, as soon as they mention the vehicle is in a different country and advance payment walk away.... whatever service they claim to offer!
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Old 22.05.2011, 11:23
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Re: law advice on possible stolen money

Hi swisspea,

I appreciate a lot your message, It resounds with my partners words.

The only thing I can add is that the seller completely disregarded the official fax from his bank that expresses clearly the money had reached his account.

Below is a link to a fragment of the fax i got from the bank after starting formal enquiry, according to it, the money is in his account almost 1 month ago.

You think that the money could be somewhere in some sort of electronic limbo still? I will call postfinance and to tell them to help me further in the search for the money before starting the claim and also send a last email to the seller taking in account the points you suggest. Thanks again.

http://bayimg.com/caIiLAaDD


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When we transfer funds internationally, our 'home' bank receives the transfer into a holding account, and if they don't match the details correctly, it takes them a couple of weeks to sort it out.

It sounds like you are either dealing with an amateur, or someone who has made their mind up that you are the one trying to rip them off, or they are a crook.

I prefer to assume it's an honest mistake rather than a dishonest one. So a registered letter, giving a copy of the official documentation, and instructions on how to check with their bank that the money was not accidentally 'lost in transit' and then a list of what actions you can take.

I'm interested that you have already threatened him. Rather than assuming it's an honest mistake, and helping him to find the money. Surely both sides would be interested in finding the money, and it would be much easier to assume that the bank has made a mistake, than that one side is trying to rip off the other...

Do you know what bank it was transferred to ? Maybe you can contact that bank and tell them to confirm with their client that the money was transferred. You might not be able to get them to disclose where the money went, but you can 'alert' them that the money allegedly was not delivered to the correct account...
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