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  #21  
Old 11.07.2011, 12:21
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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I saw those tables but they gave me redicolously low tax %. I think based on these tables I would get an income tax of 3-4%, both federal and cantonal tax together (maried, 2 children).
However, if you do a simulation on that very same website I come to a whole different number. I assume the simulator on that site is more accurate and takes into account some other stuff that you cannot see in htose tables.
The simulator only works if you're domiciled in the canton AND not taxed at source (cumulative conditions). The different rates in the tables account for the various deductions that you can not file for under the tax at source regime.
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  #22  
Old 11.07.2011, 12:36
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

Ok, so if I get everything correct I'm:
a) overestimating my income tax?
b) underestimating my contributions to Social security (and then mainly the pension part).
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  #23  
Old 11.07.2011, 13:39
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

Something like that. Your HR should be able to give you your exact tax amount if you're taxed at source. They should also know exactly what the pension fund policy is.
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  #24  
Old 11.07.2011, 14:00
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

Indeed they SHOULD. However they can't do that at the moment because they are not yet registered in Geneva or have even have a building, let alone that they know what the legal requirements are for Switzerland. They promised me to give me a simulation once the finalized the whole thing, but I was hoping to get already a first view on this.

Thanks

EDIT: the million dollar question is if the total burden is roughly in line with what I'm saying (i.e. around 30%)?

Last edited by dorfke; 11.07.2011 at 15:50. Reason: forgot
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  #25  
Old 11.07.2011, 16:53
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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Indeed they SHOULD. However they can't do that at the moment because they are not yet registered in Geneva or have even have a building, let alone that they know what the legal requirements are for Switzerland. They promised me to give me a simulation once the finalized the whole thing, but I was hoping to get already a first view on this.

Thanks

EDIT: the million dollar question is if the total burden is roughly in line with what I'm saying (i.e. around 30%)?
I can only comment on tax and retirement as I'm not familiar with CMU tariffs, but assuming a 10% private pension rate on your salary (including superobligatory which is rather the current use) I get around 16%. Again, that's excluding health insurance considerations.
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  #26  
Old 11.07.2011, 16:58
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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Fancy that, the law seems to disagree with you. Article 16 more precisely. In order to pay 6% you must have a gross of around 125k and be insured on the minimal portion which is ca. 50k ish (so 15% of 50k which is what the law actually says). But then again that would only apply to your particular case and by no way can be considered as market practice or indeed a percentage that can be applied universally...

A CH pension is not only CD's but between 25% and 40% stocks depending on whether it follows the LPP25 or the LPP40 benchmark. Also the minimum return is set every two years by the Federal Council (and no, it isn't the CD rate). Suggest more reading is in order.
Having worked in Ch since 1994 I have always paid 6% + 6% from the company. Last year I worked for 4 companies in 3 cantons & they all did the same thing.

This may be of interest:-
"All employees with an annual income of between CHF 25,320 and CHF 75,960 are obliged to pay contributions to the scheme. The insurance scheme can be run by a company pension, state or private fund. Total contributions increase with age and amount to 7-18% of gross salary (2004)."

So employee contributions would be from 3.5% - 9% depending on age.

Art 16.38 0f your link
Art. 1638 Bonifications de vieillesse
Les bonifications de vieillesse sont calculées annuellement en pour-cent du salaire
coordonné. Les taux suivants sont appliqués:
Age Taux en % du salaire coordonné
25–34 7
35–44 10
45–54 15
55–6539 18

Looks like I am being short changed should be 7.5% + 7.5%!


Best FMF

Edit I don't see the bit that stakes I must have a minimium salary of 125k to pay 6%

Last edited by fatmanfilms; 11.07.2011 at 17:09.
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  #27  
Old 11.07.2011, 17:21
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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Looks like I am being short changed should be 7.5% + 7.5%!

If the percentages you quote are correct, then you are more than short changed - you should pay a minimum 15% on the amount between 24'360 CHF and 83'520 CHF and so should your employer. That is, your 2011 private pension contributions should amount to a minimum of 0.15 x 59'160 x 2.

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This may be of interest:-
"All employees with an annual income of between CHF 25,320 and CHF 75,960 are obliged to pay contributions to the scheme. The insurance scheme can be run by a company pension, state or private fund. Total contributions increase with age and amount to 7-18% of gross salary (2004)."

So employee contributions would be from 3.5% - 9% depending on age
Wrong. That is the minimum contribution you as an employee are obliged to make. Your employer is obliged to match that minimum (art. 66 Lpp, art 331CO). The figures aren't divided by two.

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Edit I don't see the bit that stakes I must have a minimium salary of 125k to pay 6%
More like 147'900 if you use the correct figures actually.

The calculation as follows: you are being taxed (per your own affirmation) on the minimum insurable amount at 15% a year (that is a legal obligation of the employer and I can't see how they could fumble that). 15% of the minimum insurable amount is 8'874 CHF. If you assert that the 8874 CHF represent 6% of your gross, then your gross is 8'874 / 0.06 = 147'900 per year.

Either that, or your percentages are wrong - there's no way that over 16+ years your private pension contributions do not change.
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Last edited by Shorrick Mk2; 11.07.2011 at 17:40.
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  #28  
Old 11.07.2011, 17:44
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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More like 147'900 if you use the correct figures actually.

The calculation as follows: you are being taxed (per your own affirmation) on the minimum insurable amount at 15% a year (that is a legal obligation of the employer and I can't see how they could fumble that). 15% of the minimum insurable amount is 8'874 CHF. If you assert that the 8874 CHF represent 6% of your gross, then your gross is 8'874 / 0.06 = 147'900 per year.

Either that, or your percentages are wrong - there's no way that over 16+ years your private pension contributions do not change.
I never affirmed any of that! It's 12 or 15% combined in my case.

I worked for 4 companies with earnings between 2,000 & 33,000 all 4 deducted 6% from salary & paid 12% to my BVG fund.

The percentages should of increased 4 years ago, not had a full time Job during that time just did 'gain intermédiaire' / 'Zwischenverdienst' I will contact the 'biggest' one and see what they say.

Interesting the BVG has not said anything, they know my age and and send a statement showing pensionable earnings & 12% pension payments.
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  #29  
Old 11.07.2011, 17:56
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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I never affirmed any of that! It's 12 or 15% combined in my case.
Well, you sort of did...

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Ok I am 49. pension charges are 6% me + 6% employer.
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As I said 6% + 6% only the obligatory part is insured
.
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  #30  
Old 11.07.2011, 18:11
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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Well, you sort of did...




.
You wrote "If you assert that the 8874 CHF represent 6% of your gross, then your gross is 8'874 / 0.06 = 147'900 per year."

If your earning 50K then the min insurable salary is more than 8874! I don't like paying for insurance, I would by choice have just 8874 insured however the BVG says it's not allowed & recalculate my insurable salary at the end of the year, based on pension paid.
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  #31  
Old 12.07.2011, 09:39
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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You wrote "If you assert that the 8874 CHF represent 6% of your gross, then your gross is 8'874 / 0.06 = 147'900 per year."

If your earning 50K then the min insurable salary is more than 8874!
Never mind, i think you don't understand what I'm trying to explain.

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I don't like paying for insurance, I would by choice have just 8874 insured however the BVG says it's not allowed & recalculate my insurable salary at the end of the year, based on pension paid.
If you read a little more about pension (which I think you really should) you'll find out that your private pension is not "insurance" but rather tax-free savings and it belongs to you as opposed to being merged into a state-run social security fund (European style) or belonging to the company (US Style).
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  #32  
Old 12.07.2011, 09:47
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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If you read a little more about pension (which I think you really should) you'll find out that your private pension is not "insurance" but rather tax-free savings and it belongs to you as opposed to being merged into a state-run social security fund (European style) or belonging to the company (US Style).
It has to have cover for a wife & children so it's not 100% invested. There is probably dissability cover, I am away fron home so cant check. Probably 20% of the premium is 'wasted' on insurance that I don't want.

Don't get me started on Pensions in general, I should have been able to take my UK personal pension next year when I reached 50, as thats when I intended to retire 30 years ago when I started the plan. The UK Governemnt just changed the law for people born when I was, so it will be 55 before I can take any money. As I don't wish to waste another 5 years working I will retire in any case. The restrictions you get for the tax benefit (if really any) is a big con IMHO.
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  #33  
Old 12.07.2011, 10:33
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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It has to have cover for a wife & children so it's not 100% invested. There is probably dissability cover, I am away fron home so cant check. Probably 20% of the premium is 'wasted' on insurance that I don't want.
Key word being probably.
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  #34  
Old 12.07.2011, 13:25
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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Key word being probably.
I was unable to revoke the insurance, it's 'probably' dissability but may also be a pension in the event of my death for a wife or surviving children that I don't have. I will look at the paperwork on Friday-
For 2nd pillar it's not possible to have investment only, pillar 3 is a different matter, which I expect is where the confusion comes from.

Last edited by fatmanfilms; 12.07.2011 at 13:37.
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  #35  
Old 12.07.2011, 20:08
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

Right, back to topic: need urgently an official estimation on this. Anyone has an idea where i can get this? Had a first quote from someone in my homecountry but it seems a bit outregous (1100euro +vat). Any leads are more than welcome
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  #36  
Old 12.07.2011, 22:17
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

Seems you've had the info' but don't like it, so put your hand in your pocket an got to a pro
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  #37  
Old 13.07.2011, 09:08
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

No, I would like to base my decision to move my family abroad on professional advice rather than a forum post
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  #38  
Old 13.07.2011, 10:13
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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I was unable to revoke the insurance, it's 'probably' dissability but may also be a pension in the event of my death for a wife or surviving children that I don't have. I will look at the paperwork on Friday-
For 2nd pillar it's not possible to have investment only, pillar 3 is a different matter, which I expect is where the confusion comes from.
Rest assured there's no confusion. Part of your contributions are indeed accounted as "insurance" for accounting purposes however you're free to withdraw the whole amount paid in (regardless of how it has been accounted) at all times to fund a real estate purchase, fund the required capital of your firm or simply move abroad to a country Switzerland has no social security agreement with.

You should really read more on the topic before making sweeping assumptions.
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