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Old 03.07.2011, 09:50
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Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

So, after spending 2 days reading through a 1000 threads and websites I'm still not clear on all the specifics around working in Geneva and living in France. So here it goes:

I received an offer to work in Geneva but would be living in France as finding a house in Suisse is impossible.

The main questions I have are around tax and Social security/health care. Unfortunately the company cannot yet give me advice as they are not yet located in Suisse (they will move there beginning of next year). What I did already understand from the group forntaliers is that I would be taxed at source in Suisse. However how much ths would be is very dependent of where you look.

After doing 5 tax simulations and looking at the cantonal/federal tax rates on the geneva websie the total (so federal/cantonal/municipal) tax rate was anywheer between 2.5% (based on the pdf files with rates from Geneva website) and 14% (tax simulator). As you can understand this is quite the difference and I would need am acuurate number. Someone told me that I would also be taxed in France (but taking into account what you already paid to the suisse tax authorities)?

Second question is around social security: where will I pay for that: Switzerland or France? I read from the website of the frontaliers that you can choose. If so what is the most interesting option and how much would this cost me? Do I need additional health insurance in France/Suisse?

Thanks
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Old 03.07.2011, 11:24
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

Unless your married to a Swiss citizen, you will be taxed at source. You don't give enough information to answer.
A tax liability of 14% is quite possible, Insurances + pension wil probably be a little less , however pension costs are age relate.

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So, after spending 2 days reading through a 1000 threads and websites I'm still not clear on all the specifics around working in Geneva and living in France. So here it goes:

I received an offer to work in Geneva but would be living in France as finding a house in Suisse is impossible.

The main questions I have are around tax and Social security/health care. Unfortunately the company cannot yet give me advice as they are not yet located in Suisse (they will move there beginning of next year). What I did already understand from the group forntaliers is that I would be taxed at source in Suisse. However how much ths would be is very dependent of where you look.

After doing 5 tax simulations and looking at the cantonal/federal tax rates on the geneva websie the total (so federal/cantonal/municipal) tax rate was anywheer between 2.5% (based on the pdf files with rates from Geneva website) and 14% (tax simulator). As you can understand this is quite the difference and I would need am acuurate number. Someone told me that I would also be taxed in France (but taking into account what you already paid to the suisse tax authorities)?

Second question is around social security: where will I pay for that: Switzerland or France? I read from the website of the frontaliers that you can choose. If so what is the most interesting option and how much would this cost me? Do I need additional health insurance in France/Suisse?

Thanks
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Old 03.07.2011, 11:27
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

Sorry, you're completely right. Forgot to mention the details:

Maried with two children, both EU (Belgium) whic I read is very good for tax reasons.
Wife would not be working in first instance
Offer would be 75Keuro so roughly 90kchf
bonus of 15%
Haven't recieved yet the details on pension plan etc.
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Old 03.07.2011, 11:29
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

sorry: age 34
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Old 09.07.2011, 10:08
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

Ok, after spending some time in the internet I think I figured out the total picture:

Gross Salary: 90K CHF
Annual Rent (from house we keep in our home country): 16K CHF

Income tax: 11,412 CHF (12.7%)
Social Security (AVS, AC, Pension, Accidents, but NO LAMAL): 9,450 (10.5%)
Buy into CMU: 5,040 CHF (8% of net salary)
We're opting for the french social security as it seems to be the better choice for our situation (Maried and two children)

Total tax/SC: 25,902 CHF (28,8%)

Does this seem to make sense or am I forgetting something important?
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Old 09.07.2011, 10:37
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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Ok, after spending some time in the internet I think I figured out the total picture:

Gross Salary: 90K CHF
Annual Rent (from house we keep in our home country): 16K CHF

Income tax: 11,412 CHF (12.7%)
Social Security (AVS, AC, Pension, Accidents, but NO LAMAL): 9,450 (10.5%)
Buy into CMU: 5,040 CHF (8% of net salary)
We're opting for the french social security as it seems to be the better choice for our situation (Maried and two children)

Total tax/SC: 25,902 CHF (28,8%)

Does this seem to make sense or am I forgetting something important?
You need to check out health insurance costs. Cost of living is very high & paying 16000 rent in another country + 2 Children you will not feel rich! Finances will be tight.
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Old 09.07.2011, 11:43
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

just to be clear the rent is income, not additional cost. We have foreseen 1800 euro in rent to be paid in France

For health insurance: if you have basic CMU you're already covered for some cost. We would then take additional health insurance (mutuelle) which was estimated at +/- 100euro/month for the family. Reasonable?
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Old 09.07.2011, 12:32
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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Ok, after spending some time in the internet I think I figured out the total picture:

Gross Salary: 90K CHF
Annual Rent (from house we keep in our home country): 16K CHF

Income tax: 11,412 CHF (12.7%)
That looks wrong.

Quote:
Social Security (AVS, AC, Pension, Accidents, but NO LAMAL): 9,450 (10.5%)
That looks wrong. Social security is 6.5, and for your age range pension contribution is 7% moving up to 10% age 35.
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Old 09.07.2011, 12:39
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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That looks wrong.



That looks wrong. Social security is 6.5, and for your age range pension contribution is 7% moving up to 10% age 35.
Ok I am 49. pension charges are 6% me + 6% employer.
With that additional income I suspect the OP will have to pay French taxes. As you have Children the amount will be reduced, however social charges I think are chargable on the Rent income, it could be expensive.
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Old 09.07.2011, 18:57
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

NEW:
If you work in Geneva and you live in France , you will be taxed at source ( see geneva tax - bareme - you could find the exact %). But you have the possibility to ask for " the quasi-resident" status. But you make this in next year - means 2012 for 2011. As a quasi-resident you could declare taxes and with 2 children and a non-working wife the quasi-resident status would be better.
You could deduct costs like health insurance, mileage per day to go to work, child care if under 13 years and other things.
For a family insured in Switzerland, the health insurance is higher than 100 Euro. Depending on your age ( 2 adults and 2 Kids ) it is about 10 000 CHF to 15 000 Chf per year.
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Old 09.07.2011, 20:28
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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That looks wrong.



That looks wrong. Social security is 6.5, and for your age range pension contribution is 7% moving up to 10% age 35.
Income tax comes from the official webiste from taxes in Geneva (tax simulator) so I'm assuming it's correct
http://ge.ch/impots/accueil

Social securtity costs comes from:
http://www.bsv.admin.ch/kmu/ueberbli...x.html?lang=fr

Pension fund is between 2-8% according to age but for 34 it woudl be around 4%

I asked for a quote for health care in France and I came to 100euro per month for the family. How woudl this be wrong? I know insurance in Suisse is way more expensive but I also paid 5% already onto CMU

Do I need to pay taxes on rental income in France or Switzerland?
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Old 09.07.2011, 20:48
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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NEW:
But you have the possibility to ask for " the quasi-resident" status. But you make this in next year - means 2012 for 2011. As a quasi-resident you could declare taxes and with 2 children and a non-working wife the quasi-resident status would be better.
You could deduct costs like health insurance, mileage per day to go to work, child care if under 13 years and other things.
Wrong. As I've already pointed out at length on another thread: to get quasi-resident status you must earn more than 90% of your total income in Switzerland. I admit it's a close call. Also the quasi-resident staus changes nothing about wife and children. It just allows you to claim Mileage, meals and other professional costs as stated correctly.
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Old 10.07.2011, 10:20
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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Ok I am 49. pension charges are 6% me + 6% employer.
Correct, but that is only your state pension, not your private pension.

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Income tax comes from the official webiste from taxes in Geneva (tax simulator) so I'm assuming it's correct
http://ge.ch/impots/accueil
You have to look up the tax at source tables - but with a 90K CHF and non-working wife+2 kids i get a very different figure.

Quote:
Social securtity costs comes from:
http://www.bsv.admin.ch/kmu/ueberbli...x.html?lang=fr

Pension fund is between 2-8% according to age but for 34 it woudl be around 4%
Not really. I suggest you consult this to get a better understanding of how it works. With the addendum that most employers insure your whole salary and do not stop at the mandatory 84k-ish. Have a look for "prestations surobligatoires".

If you persevere to believe it's only going to be 4% you're going to be in for a surprise.
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Old 10.07.2011, 11:57
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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Correct, but that is only your state pension, not your private pension.



You have to look up the tax at source tables - but with a 90K CHF and non-working wife+2 kids i get a very different figure.

Not really. I suggest you consult this to get a better understanding of how it works. With the addendum that most employers insure your whole salary and do not stop at the mandatory 84k-ish. Have a look for "prestations surobligatoires".

If you persevere to believe it's only going to be 4% you're going to be in for a surprise.
You get more or less tax, how much exactly? What tables? I was hoping that website from Geneva woudl give me an accurate estimate.

Thanks fro the link, will read through. So basicaly you're sayin that my total tax/SC cost will be a lot higher?
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Old 10.07.2011, 12:21
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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Correct, but that is only your state pension, not your private pension.
.
Thats company pension, of course State pension / Unemployment insurance / Maternity ins (In GE for men as well) comes in at about 6.5% as well. Add some non work accident insurance while your about it say 1%.
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Old 11.07.2011, 09:02
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

Unless the company pays part of it for you there's no way at your age private pension can be 6% of gross. Unless of course your gross salary is huge, and the company only insures you on the obligatory part ^^.
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Old 11.07.2011, 09:35
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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You get more or less tax, how much exactly? What tables? I was hoping that website from Geneva woudl give me an accurate estimate.

These tables
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Old 11.07.2011, 10:39
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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Unless the company pays part of it for you there's no way at your age private pension can be 6% of gross. Unless of course your gross salary is huge, and the company only insures you on the obligatory part ^^.
As I said 6% + 6% only the obligatory part is insured, of course a CH pension is generally cash deposits so will produce very little. I will relay on NASDAQstocks to provide what I need.

Those are the percentages written in the law, for every employee of my age.
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Old 11.07.2011, 11:13
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

I saw those tables but they gave me redicolously low tax %. I think based on these tables I would get an income tax of 3-4%, both federal and cantonal tax together (maried, 2 children).
However, if you do a simulation on that very same website I come to a whole different number. I assume the simulator on that site is more accurate and takes into account some other stuff that you cannot see in htose tables.
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Old 11.07.2011, 12:16
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Re: Tax/Social Secuity Geneva - France

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As I said 6% + 6% only the obligatory part is insured, of course a CH pension is generally cash deposits so will produce very little. I will relay on NASDAQstocks to provide what I need.

Those are the percentages written in the law, for every employee of my age.
Fancy that, the law seems to disagree with you. Article 16 more precisely. In order to pay 6% you must have a gross of around 125k and be insured on the minimal portion which is ca. 50k ish (so 15% of 50k which is what the law actually says). But then again that would only apply to your particular case and by no way can be considered as market practice or indeed a percentage that can be applied universally...

A CH pension is not only CD's but between 25% and 40% stocks depending on whether it follows the LPP25 or the LPP40 benchmark. Also the minimum return is set every two years by the Federal Council (and no, it isn't the CD rate). Suggest more reading is in order.
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Last edited by Shorrick Mk2; 11.07.2011 at 15:06.
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